So... Level 90 talents?

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
No word from Blizzard. At all. Are we just going to give up?

Tired of being forced to use RoP/Invocation because IW can't be up enough. Tired of pulling last because I dislike using a clunky mechanic that forces me to stand still to DPS/stand still for 5(ish) seconds every 40(ish) seconds... *sighs*

PS: Lhiv, you know I think you're awesome, but please don't math at me about average time of IW being up. I remember your post from last time, and you can math that all you want, but due to the situational portion of IW, it really can't be mathed. Same goes for RoP on fights that randomly puts bad stuff on the ground/forces you to move, and even Invocation if it's frequently. These talents were unique designs, but executed horribly, plain and simple.

Edit: Blizz, do you see how many fellow Mages dislike these talents? Look below. Look at all the other threads on this issue. GC, you still play a Mage, don't you? Do you REALLY find it fun to do less DPS than everyone else (IW) or to keep up Invo/RoP, JUST to stay competitive? Seriously, these aren't fun. At all. You all said it yourselves, talents (ESPECIALLY the last tier) are supposed to feel OVERPOWERED. The only OP feeling I get is using Invocation to heal when soloing old stuff. Other than that, our (T6) talents just suck. I'm sorry, but they just suck.

Update: The official point of this thread is mostly that the talents are clunky/not fun to use. You CAN discuss the fundamentals of the uptimes and compare the damage of them if you want, but the main goal here is to get them to be less... well, crappy in terms of QoL/Fun, as right now, they're not fun to use.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/17/2012 9:47 AM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
0
All of the 90 talents can be used. It isnt about them being BAD as far as numbers go. Simulations aren't able to tell if talents aren't fun.

The level 90 talents just aren't fun, 100% plain and simple. I don't know who at Blizz thought they were, but they aren't and there are plenty of mages that agree.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/12/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Incendium
All of the 90 talents can be used. It isnt about them being BAD as far as numbers go. Simulations aren't able to tell if talents aren't fun.


No, IW is bad for numbers, and RoP/Invocation are bad for "fun" levels. Keeping them up is aggravating as all hell.

I wouldn't by any means call IW not fun though. I actually enjoy the hell out of it (especially because it's a passive mixed in with an INSTANT CAST active, and not many spells (in WoW at least) have a P/A thing going on.

RoP and Invocation are just a mess and need a tweaking or complete replacing (though I DO love Invocation for soloing old content, or when farming enemies. The healing on it from Glyph of Evocation is very very nice)
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90 Draenei Mage
6570
IW IS BAD FOR PATCHWERK FIGHTS AND THEY DON'T GIVE ME PATCHWERK FIGHTS FOR IT TO BE BAD AT
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10/12/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Incendium
The level 90 talents just aren't fun, 100% plain and simple. I don't know who at Blizz thought they were, but they aren't and there are plenty of mages that agree.

I'm -really- trying to use Invocation. I love casting Arcane spells, but damn does Invo kill the fun of it.

I hope it changes soon. Making it into a "Divine Plea" type buff would be awesome. Just stop making me channel for 5+ seconds all the time :- /
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90 Gnome Mage
11450
The more I get used to it, the more I enjoy RoP. I still find it a pain in group settings, but it really is an awesome ability (when glyphed).
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90 Pandaren Mage
5520
The more I get used to it, the more I enjoy RoP. I still find it a pain in group settings, but it really is an awesome ability (when glyphed).

You know what... I'm starting to warm up to it as well. Ironically, it was the one I expected to like the least. I think the area of effect is way too small and the healing done is about half of what it's supposed to be when you have the Evocation glyph, but it's not as bad as some people are making it out to be.
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90 Undead Mage
7790
10/12/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Incendium
I don't know who at Blizz thought they were, but they aren't and there are plenty of mages that agree.


Guys at Blizz: "Hey GC we're about to work on the mage level 90 talents. What are your thoughts?"
GC: "!@#$ those guys I don't play my mage anymore. Do whatever you want."

But in all's seriousness yeah level 90 talents might help result in good damage, but only by sacrificing fun -_-
Hey, at least they are working hard on making sure the pet battle system is running at maximum potential.
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90 Goblin Mage
9540
I basically check the forums every day for more discussion on them. The problem is they've been discussed. There's nothing else to say. The consensus is basically in, and I think we just have to be persistent.

T90 talents suck fun out of raiding as a mage. Period.
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90 Gnome Mage
13755

PS: Lhiv, you know I think you're awesome, but please don't math at me about average time of IW being up. I remember your post from last time, and you can math that all you want, but due to the situational portion of IW, it really can't be mathed. Same goes for RoP on fights that randomly puts bad stuff on the ground/forces you to move, and even Invocation if it's frequently. These talents were unique designs, but executed horribly, plain and simple.


It's almost certain Blizzard has some range of target uptimes in mind for these talents (uptimes that aren't 100%) and checks that, for the most part, the uptimes stay in those ranges for most fights under normal conditions. Yes, a string of bad luck could give horrendous uptime, but really, it's not the devs' jobs to ensure that an edge case that happens only once in ten thousand attempts isn't unduly punishing. There has to be some limit to the madness.

Make no mistake, I think these talents' basic models represent failures of understanding player psychology, but really, much more about this game can be mathed than most people think.
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I finally raided today and I can agree that it's annoying to use.

Especially ESPECIALLY on fights with just random AoE on the ground. Okay looks like its safe to evo NOPE.
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
[quote="68927390627"]Especially ESPECIALLY on fights with just random AoE on the ground. Okay looks like its safe to evo NOPE.[/quote

sounds like a bad fight to use invocation on then....

choose more wisely.
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90 Undead Mage
7790
Jk is just ruthless to those that don't properly utilize their level 90 talents.
;)
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90 Draenei Shaman
7730
it just seems so repetitive...

"i took invocation and the fight doesnt favor invocation! change things!"

.... just buy a tome of whatever and change the talent.

as im leveling, i cant say im loving mage either, but its for alot of different reasons. reasons that cant be overcome so easily.

like combustion doing a whopping 6-10k per tick on average among three targets instead of 15-30k spread through 12 targets. :'(

also tried frost.... wasnt thrilled. did much better damage, but didnt like how dependant on instant casts it is.

tomorrow i try arcane! hope for the best!
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10/14/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Jkspiritlink
Especially ESPECIALLY on fights with just random AoE on the ground. Okay looks like its safe to evo NOPE.


sounds like a bad fight to use invocation on then....

choose more wisely.

I'm sure Rune of Power works out much better when there's random AoE on the ground. No wait, it really doesn't. And I'm expecting the response "Be happy you have one viable talent and stop complaining!" Because after all, talents are designed for you to have only one option, right?

And isn't it great how the lvl 90 talents let you choose which Arcane play style you want to use (conserve, burn, or combination) but then the fights require you to use exactly one option? mhmm... sweet design there.
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90 Undead Mage
0
"i took invocation and the fight doesnt favor invocation! change things!"

.... just buy a tome of whatever and change the talent.


Yea the problem is that the fights don't favor ANY of the 90 talents, not just Invocation. On a fight like Stone Guard, Invocation is even better than RoP imo, because you at least take the buff with you when you move, and there is a LOT of random AOE.

IW might be an OK option, but it doesn't give you much control, and it literally makes you want to stand in bad stuff, which is against raid rule #1

All I can say is, try it out when you hit 90.
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90 Draenei Mage
11880
I finally raided today and I can agree that it's annoying to use.

Especially ESPECIALLY on fights with just random AoE on the ground. Okay looks like its safe to evo NOPE.


Make sure you refresh Ice Barrier just before you start your Evo. Doing that I can usually finish.

Personally I like Invocation. Yes it's annoying having to cast it every 40sec but being on a 10sec timer it's a nice perk to heal yourself if you need to. Would be nice if the buff lasted longer. Maybe stretch the time but have the buff get smaller the longer you let it run?
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Yeah I used RoP at first on stone guard but I was casting that more than half the time so... Melee being linked to me it was a pita to keep up.

I got envocation down my waiting to see a mine go down first THEN evoing. Worked out well, came in second on damage UNDER OUR DRUID TANK.

I just don't understand pve.
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90 Draenei Mage
11880
10/14/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Incendium
IW might be an OK option, but it doesn't give you much control, and it literally makes you want to stand in bad stuff, which is against raid rule #1


This is the biggest issue I have with IW. For years I've trained myself to run away from the bad stuff and now I'm suppose to look for it? WTH
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
10/14/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Incendium
IW might be an OK option, but it doesn't give you much control, and it literally makes you want to stand in bad stuff, which is against raid rule #1


Works decent enough. I macro it with temporal, and hit em on cool down. No need to stand in stuff as Jade is always pulsing, and not standing in anything is near impossible anyways.
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