Windsong and Elemental Force Information

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100 Tauren Druid
18690
11/06/2012 10:47 AMPosted by Thrêads

Will this 'fix' feral uptime? Because it is most definitely lower than everyone else.


Quoting for increased awareness.

More likely it will bring the stupid uptime of everyone else back down to earth. Rogues are seeing 65-85% uptime on the buff. Warriors and Palis around 40-60% uptime. Monks (2h) 50% uptime. Monks (DW) 70% uptime. Ferals were the only class that seemed to have the normal or slightly lower then normal expected uptime.
90 Pandaren Shaman
11645
Is there a reason why Jade Spirit has such a long internal GCD? It procs at really useless times and the spirit does not apply in time (at below the given %age) hardly at all. Is there a way to make the spirit and intel procs have differing internal GCDs to make this worth keeping?
90 Blood Elf Priest
14315
11/06/2012 11:30 AMPosted by Elta
Is there a reason why Jade Spirit has such a long internal GCD? It procs at really useless times and the spirit does not apply in time (at below the given %age) hardly at all. Is there a way to make the spirit and intel procs have differing internal GCDs to make this worth keeping?


As a healer, it's not even remotely worth getting Jade Spirit, if you are going for the spirit proc. Heartsong is mathematically proven to be more spirit and not have a crap uptime like Jade Spirit (25% mana threshold that idealy you never get too... stupid design). Any chance Jade Spirit could see a buff for healers? Really dumb having to keep these Scrolls of Heartsong around.
90 Pandaren Shaman
11645
11/06/2012 11:34 AMPosted by Faera
Is there a reason why Jade Spirit has such a long internal GCD? It procs at really useless times and the spirit does not apply in time (at below the given %age) hardly at all. Is there a way to make the spirit and intel procs have differing internal GCDs to make this worth keeping?


As a healer, it's not even remotely worth getting Jade Spirit, if you are going for the spirit proc. Heartsong is mathematically proven to be more spirit and not have a crap uptime like Jade Spirit (25% mana threshold that idealy you never get too... stupid design). Any chance Jade Spirit could see a buff for healers? Really dumb having to keep these Scrolls of Heartsong around.


Yes, this was mentioned on Beta forums about 4 months ago...maybe six. They said they would take a look at it, then said they fixed it. If this is "fixed" then I am named Molly.
90 Human Warlock
17825
Enchants like Windsong being able to be double enchanted by dual wielders for double the PPM seems a really broken system. Enchants like Elemental Force that proc direct damage won't have the problem, but enchants like Windsong that give combat ratings or stats obviously buff attacks made by both weapons - so your offhand procs buff your attacks made from your mainhand weapon and visa-versa, wich gives dual wielders an exponential boost from the enchants. I really think you should look into limiting enchants like Windsong and Dancing Steel that proc stats to Mainhand weapons only (or not stacking when dual wielded), and only allow Elemental Force or other enchants that don't Cross-Polinate buff on Offhands - or alternatively limit the benefits of the procs to only benefit attacks made by the weapon that proced the effect (so if your offhand procs the crit buff windsong, only attacks made with the offhand gain a higher crit chance).
Edited by Thanatosia on 11/6/2012 12:14 PM PST
90 Goblin Priest
15980
Unless the equation was explained incorrectly, the final proc percentage does not interact with haste at all.

Percent chance to proc:
= (X PPM) * (% haste) * (average time between damage events with 0 haste) / (% haste) / 60
= (X PPM) * (average time between damage events with 0 haste) / 60

At least it don't scale negatively with haste, and I presume that's what the intent was.


So, we tested this and it seems that the enchants do scale positively with haste, which means that the equations given are incorrect =\


Could you please share some insight into this?
I recently replaced windsong with jade spirit (which cost 5k on my server).

Jade Spirit almost NEVER procs. I've seen a total of 3 in 2 days ( I imagine I missed a few being busy kicking !@# or trying to stay alive in arena).

Windsong proced very often (it was up bout 15-20% of my active fighting time) and I'm wondering when the fix will be put in to Jade Spirit. Right now i just spent 5k gold on something thats lowered my DPS.
90 Undead Warlock
0
So, you're nerfing caster procs and buffing melee procs? I don't see the need in this...melee do as much damage as we do.
90 Orc Warrior
16735
I wonder if elemental force with the higher ppm rate would be superior to windsong. The damage is measurable and has a much higher proc rate. I am looking at this from a fury warrior standpoint. Also the fact that Windsong has a random chance to proc one of 3 different abilities 2 of which are ho-hum for fury.
90 Pandaren Shaman
12285
After rereading the "Real PPM' blog again and actually sitting down and doing the Math...these seems like a uselessly complicated gesture at moving away from static proc rates. And by moving away from static procrates, i actually meaning giving a variance of no more then 10s on static procs that have such little input from haste that its almost not worth mentioning.

The basic formula is PPM (2) x Haste value 1.xx (your haste %) x Time since last second it could proc (caping at 10s) all / 60 seconds.

seeing as you have 2 static values, 2 (PPM) and 60 (time) and two variables: xx (1-100 % haste) and time since last proc (.01 -10) the delta with the largest variance has the most impact. This isn't a bad thing, the problem is they are trying to sell that by getting more haste you'll have a higher proc rate. That the proc chance scales with haste. Though technically true the mathematical probability change is so small its hardly noticeable.

max haste (100%) 6.67% proc after 1s. 33.33% After 5s 66.67% after 10s
Realistic haste (20%) 4.0% proc faster 1s. 20% After 5s 40.0% after 10s
No haste (.01%) 3.37% proc after 1s 16.83% After 5s 33.67% after 10s.

Max haste is simply to show maximum possible chance to proc (a ceiling). It will generally never be met even during BL/Hero situations. What you should be looking at is the difference between 0% haste and realistic haste. if a whopping 20% difference in haste makes only a 7% difference at 10s since proc, imagine what the marginal increases in haste gains as your gear progresses throughout the expansion. 20%~ (full heroic gear) now and possibly 25% in t16 Heroic gear. A 5% difference in haste means that you chance to increase your proc across the course of 10s is so statistically insignificant that even mentioning it is a waste of your time.

What this Boils down to is that rathern than a 55s internal and a 30% proc rate, its a 60s internal with double procs falling within the 60s and it occuring again in no more than 70s (unless you are just really unlucky that day).

Is it a different system? Sure, but it wont noticeably scale with your gear and you can stille rely on those procs happening at a pretty predictable pace.

This is of course for jade song.

DW classes with absurdly large haste pools (Frost dks) will most likely see much higher proc rates of their respective enchants and up times as by design. but haste matters even less in a system of more PPMs with a 10s window to increasing proc chance.
Edited by Vytona on 11/27/2012 1:43 AM PST
90 Undead Warlock
11445
Just embrace the changes.
90 Worgen Warrior
9030
We recently hotfixed the Windsong and Elemental Force weapon enchants to improve their performance for many users. The important part for most players is that Windsong is now a useful enchant for all classes and specs (save Hunters who use scopes, and Death Knights who use Runeforging), since it will trigger on all damage or healing, be it spell, melee, or ranged, and direct or periodic. Elemental Force will also trigger from all damage, so is useful for all damage dealers.

Additionally, these two enchants use a new system for triggering, which we wanted to give some details on. These are the gritty details, which you do not need to understand in order to use these enchants, but we wanted to lay them out for the benefit of the theorycrafting community. If mathy simulations and modeling aren’t your thing, none of this will matter much to you.

We have had various methods for triggering procs throughout WoW’s history. Most procs fall into two categories for the past few years:

  • Relatively high but static proc chance, with a significant cooldown. Most trinkets and caster procs fall into this category. For example, a trinket may have a 30% chance to proc on hit, with a 55sec cooldown. This lets us balance the trinket with a pretty safe assumption of procing about once per minute. Unfortunately, since it’s so reliable, it doesn’t really feel like a random proc, but rather like an On Use trinket that’s just on auto-cast. The uptime won’t increase significantly with any stats with this type of proc.
  • Relatively low proc chance with some normalization based on weapon speed, typically referred to as ‘PPM’ (procs per minute). Most melee weapon enchants fall into this category. For example, a weapon enchant may have 3 PPM. That checks your weapon speed, and gives your attacks a % chance based on that. If you have a 3.6speed weapon, your attacks will have a 3(PPM) * 3.6(weaponspeed) / 60 (sec per min) = 18% chance. All your white and yellow attacks with that weapon will have an 18% chance to trigger the enchant. Despite being supposedly ‘3 PPM’, that really will result in significantly more than 3 procs per minute, since all of the special attacks can proc it. Since there is no cooldown involved here, this type of enchant can feel random and streaky, instead of reliable. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing though, as you are just as likely to get lucky and get several procs in a row, which can be exciting. Some stats, primarily haste, will increase the frequency of these procs. However, since they vary heavily based on weapon speed, and how many special attacks you’re doing, these can proc significantly more or less for one class/spec/weapon than another, making them difficult to balance.


So, there are pros and cons of both of those types of procs. We’re trying a new system for these enchants. This new system, nicknamed Real PPM, aims to give the random nature of procs, the scaling with haste, and the ability for us to balance them assuming a standard proc frequency. Here’s the short version of how you can expect them to function:

  • Windsong is 2 Real PPM, and Elemental Force is 10 Real PPM.
  • Come patch 5.1, Dancing Steel and Jade Spirit will be 2 Real PPM, River's Song will be 4 Real PPM, and Colossus will be 6 Real PPM
  • Regardless of how you’re attacking or healing, slow or fast, with DoTs or direct heals, whatever, you can expect to get the same proc frequency, on average.
  • Dual wielding and having both weapons enchanted with the same enchant will double the frequency of procs that you get.
  • This Real PPM is increased by your haste %. (The highest of your melee, ranged, or spell haste is chosen).
  • Simple as that. Whether you’re an Affliction Warlock dealing very frequent DoT ticks and Malefic Grasp ticks, or a Holy Paladin casting purely Holy Lights, or a Combat Rogue quickly attacking and using specials, or an Enhancement Shaman attacking with slow melee attacks and spells, or a Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you’ll get 2*Haste Windsong procs or 10*Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute.
  • We’re excited to see how this proc system works out. If it works well, we may start using it for more types of procs. Feedback about how it feels is most welcome.


Here are even more nitty gritty details, if you’re interested:

  • It can proc from any damage/healing event. It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant.
  • It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc.
  • For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
  • The ‘time since the last chance to proc’ is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn’t a guaranteed proc.


If you have any questions about this, please feel free to post them here, and we’ll try to answer them.


Não acha um tanto injusto que essas informações(importantes por sinal) estejam em inglês apenas? Os jogadores de língua portuguesa não tem acesso a essa por quê? Uma vez pensei que todas as novidades do WOW seriam lançadas e explicadas em nosso idioma também no mesmo tempo em que em outros idiomas são lançadas. Grato.

Use google translator to read what is written above!
90 Blood Elf Warrior
8815
I'm not exactly sure how this works.
Tell me what benefit a warrior with a 2h weapon with dancing steel gets. I need an example to make sense of this.
100 Orc Shaman
15970
Just as a reminder to all about the differences between Sha Crystal Enchants versus Windsong and Elemental Force. Elemental Force only does a base damage amount that does not change if per say your agility or strength goes up and Windsong only increases haste, critical or mastery by 1500. There will come a point when having that extra 1500 haste is pretty pointless when you could be getting Jade Spirit instead for a higher chance of doing extra damage rather than putting out faster attacks at a much lower damage. As a Shaman myself, critical is fairly pointless as well as mastery when we get past 50% proc chance at elemental overload. So, haste would be the only thing we would want from it meaning there is a 1 in 3 chance we'll get what we want and 2 in 3 we'll get something useless. From what I remember other classes are pretty much the same way in that there are stats they do not need from Windsong (i.e. haste for warriors). By this I can still see the benefits of having a Sha Crystal weapon enchant, so you enchanters should not feel your money making schemes are threatened after all that hard work you put in to create those Sha enchants.
90 Undead Priest
8375
So basically what the blue posters are saying is that at 10% haste or 22% haste it equalizes itself out so that you will have the same amount of procs from your enchants creating less things for you to worry about and to ensure that each class is being compensated in a way. Meaning Warriors who don't need haste and classes that require haste for Fast Casts, Special Abilities, and melee swings will have equal opportunities to proc the intended Real PPM enchants which they made sure to make it so the enchants don't need to be upgraded because it's weaker, but as they said the Jade Spirit and other one's are more beneficial to you.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
6575
HERES SOME FEEDBACK- FIX RETS INSTEAD OF OUR 4PC PVE SET BONUS YOU OVERPAID !@#$%.
90 Undead Priest
0
So a follow up Question:

How do you determine WHAT buff Windsong will Proc.?

... or is that part just a roll of the dice?

The tool tip says it will proc x, y or Z


It can actually proc all 3 of the buffs at the same time, though this is more common on dual-wielding toon, i.e. my rogue. But still can happen on a caster, but as too which will proc, it is completely random
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