Windsong and Elemental Force Information

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90 Human Warlock
8655
10/15/2012 10:44 AMPosted by Thanatosia
Thanks for the info Daxx, but could you clarify a little more on Windsong - is it 2RPPM PER effect (haste proc, Crit Proc, Mastery Proc) - thus essentially 6RPPM among the 3 different buffs it can proc, or 2RPPM to get A proc at random?


I myself as affliction have had all three proc's up at the same time. Don't know about if that was unintended but from what I have seen looks like 2RPPM per stat.
90 Tauren Druid
7330
so from the standpoint of resto druids where we can have multiple healing events occurring the proc rate is like 1%.
assuming three heal per second its 2 x 1.13(little over current haste soft cap) x .33 /60 = 1.2%
mathematically it should be sound, but 1% that's just sad.
Edited by Trifire on 11/27/2012 3:42 PM PST
90 Undead Priest
9945
Hee hee hee..Wicked....8D
90 Goblin Mage
8360


So, there are pros and cons of both of those types of procs. We’re trying a new system for these enchants. This new system, nicknamed Real PPM, aims to give the random nature of procs, the scaling with haste, and the ability for us to balance them assuming a standard proc frequency. Here’s the short version of how you can expect them to function:

Here are even more nitty gritty details, if you’re interested:

  • It can proc from any damage/healing event. It keeps track of the last time it had a chance to proc for that enchant.
  • It calculates the difference in time since the last chance to proc. It uses that time to determine the chance for that event to trigger a proc.
  • For example, if you have 22% Haste, it was 1.4sec since the last chance to proc, and you’ve got Windsong, then the chance to proc is 2(ppm) * 1.22(haste) * 1.4(time since last chance) / 60 (sec per min) = 5.693%.
  • The ‘time since the last chance to proc’ is capped at 10sec, so that your first attack of a fight isn’t a guaranteed proc.


If you have any questions about this, please feel free to post them here, and we’ll try to answer them.


So what you are saying is that we are penalized if our class does not favor haste over mastery and crit? How is this in any way a good idea?


The REAL PPM system is designed to give you the number of procs designated for that enchant. Period. Regardless of the amount anyone stacks into a given stat.

2PPM on Windsong? You will get two procs per minute.
Stacked 50% into haste? You will get two procs per minute.

The game is compensating for the enchant to proc ONLY (or around) the PPM for that enchant. It will KEEP the enchant from its proc if it goes over the PPM. It WILL calculate the time between procs to try and spread them out.

So regardless of what class you are, or your stats, you will be getting the same procs as everyone else. Or that is the theory.

PLEASE let me know if there are any discrepancies with how this new system works. This is merely how I read and understood the notes.
Edited by Skulthi on 11/27/2012 6:57 PM PST
90 Tauren Monk
12110
10/15/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Shadow Priest channeling Mind Sear on fifty Onyxian Whelps, you’ll get 2*Haste Windsong procs or 10*Haste Elemental Force procs per enchant per minute.


HE now dont for get the non shadow priests that enjoy the ocasional RapeFest DPS braggin rights

/FLEX
So what's the better enchant for a arms warrior windsong or elemental force?
Edited by Ebenizzer on 11/27/2012 7:03 PM PST
90 Tauren Monk
12110
Not to sound snarky but what part ofWe’re excited to see how this proc system works out. If it works well, we may start using it for more types of procs. Feedback about how it feels is most welcome.is unclear?


Im sure he just wants to make sure there's no ' HIDDEN '(unmentioned, vs Other chants posibly = future added ), chants that might be on that system already.

Im sure if we say yeah let us try mongoose , executioner and stuff we can get it.
/high hopes
90 Tauren Druid
8375
What about classes who aren't stacking haste? Is the ppm going to be affected by our haste THAT much??
90 Blood Elf Rogue
11975
So when using dancing Steel on both weapons, it no longer double procs? it just increases the chance of proccing 1 buff? is this a bug or is this intentional I just need some clarity please
28 Tauren Priest
7100
This is nice and all but how able some new runes for dk's we have been stuck with the same ones for two xpacs now you think they would have figured out a new way to scribble on their weapons and make it do something by now.
90 Orc Warrior
5815
Formula given for Real PPM = (enchant ppm) x (1 + haste) x (time between proc chance) / 60.

Normal Speed = (2) x (1.04) x (0.71) / 60 = 2.4%
Slowest = (2) x (1.04) x (10.0) / 60 = 34.6%
Other = (2) x (1.04 x (3.0) / 60 = 10.4%
........... = (2) x (1.00) x (6) /60 = 20%

I Tested this for 500 hits in 355 seconds. I got 14 windsong procs .
^^^2.8%^^^

To continue the test I performed 50 knife throws with almost exactly 10 second intervals between each(500seconds). 16 windsong procs.
^^^32%^^^

You're gonna tell me that after I'm unable to prevent a cast, and I get CC'ed in a corner for 6-10 seconds those little turds are gonna collect at least 20% higher chance to proc an enchant while I'm stuck?
-any melee with tick damage is getting the shaft right now... I have a 3 second one that's always on my target, maximum chance to proc after that stun is 10%
Take the enchants, avatar, TFB, and intim shout. JUST GIVE BACK MY GAG ORDER

k thx bai
Edited by Eatmycrits on 11/28/2012 8:55 AM PST
90 Orc Warrior
5815
10/15/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Daxxarri
All your white and yellow attacks with that weapon will have an 18% chance to trigger the enchant. Despite being supposedly ‘3 PPM’, that really will result in significantly more than 3 procs per minute, since all of the special attacks can proc it. Since there is no cooldown involved here, this type of enchant can feel random and streaky, instead of reliable. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing though, as you are just as likely to get lucky and get several procs in a row, which can be exciting. Some stats, primarily haste, will increase the frequency of these procs. However, since they vary heavily based on weapon speed, and how many special attacks you’re doing, these can proc significantly more or less for one class/spec/weapon than another, making them difficult to balance.


Just reread that actually...."All your white and yellow attacks with that weapon will have an 18% chance to trigger the enchant. Despite being supposedly ‘3 PPM’, that really will result in significantly more than 3 procs per minute,"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So you are saying essentially........

Casters got enchant procs from yellow attacks ----- low chance to get a super burst, but you get to kite and CC everyone alll day..... now you get a 2ppm buff that, with a 6 Second CC you get a 20+% chance to proc it when you want.

Melee got procs from white and yellow hits.... good chance , but you have to chase your healing, casting, running, CCing enemy, and god forbid you get a little boost....... now you get a completely unpredictable buff that you have a high chance of getting cc'ed through.

Fury warriors got double procs from white and yellow hits, and IF you got those huge buff streaks, you damn well earned them cuz good friggin luck landing 10 hits in a row on any caster as a furrry guy...WOO 2x the buff chance? NO WAI.

Well we had our fun but I'm pretty sure we all knew the nerf gun was comin for us.... And R.I.P. [Gag Order] hope we meet again someday.
Edited by Eatmycrits on 11/28/2012 9:59 AM PST
90 Worgen Priest
4805
so is windsong better than jade spirit?
100 Orc Warrior
14995

The REAL PPM system is designed to give you the number of procs designated for that enchant. Period. Regardless of the amount anyone stacks into a given stat.

2PPM on Windsong? You will get two procs per minute.
Stacked 50% into haste? You will get two procs per minute.

The game is compensating for the enchant to proc ONLY (or around) the PPM for that enchant. It will KEEP the enchant from its proc if it goes over the PPM. It WILL calculate the time between procs to try and spread them out.

So regardless of what class you are, or your stats, you will be getting the same procs as everyone else. Or that is the theory.

PLEASE let me know if there are any discrepancies with how this new system works. This is merely how I read and understood the notes.


You've understood it incorrectly. Haste directly modifies your chance to proc. If you have 0% haste, you should see 2 PPM on average regardless of the abilities you're using or number of targets you're attacking. If you have 50% haste, you should see 3 PPM on average.

It will also not "try and spread them out". The timer keeps track of the time since your last chance to proc, not the time since your last proc. This is used to normalize the proc rates when you're attacking quickly(or attacking many targets) vs attacking slowly; it is not intended to space out your procs more evenly, and will have very little impact to that end.
90 Goblin Priest
15980

The REAL PPM system is designed to give you the number of procs designated for that enchant. Period. Regardless of the amount anyone stacks into a given stat.

2PPM on Windsong? You will get two procs per minute.
Stacked 50% into haste? You will get two procs per minute.

The game is compensating for the enchant to proc ONLY (or around) the PPM for that enchant. It will KEEP the enchant from its proc if it goes over the PPM. It WILL calculate the time between procs to try and spread them out.

So regardless of what class you are, or your stats, you will be getting the same procs as everyone else. Or that is the theory.

PLEASE let me know if there are any discrepancies with how this new system works. This is merely how I read and understood the notes.


You've understood it incorrectly. Haste directly modifies your chance to proc. If you have 0% haste, you should see 2 PPM on average regardless of the abilities you're using or number of targets you're attacking. If you have 50% haste, you should see 3 PPM on average.

It will also not "try and spread them out". The timer keeps track of the time since your last chance to proc, not the time since your last proc. This is used to normalize the proc rates when you're attacking quickly(or attacking many targets) vs attacking slowly; it is not intended to space out your procs more evenly, and will have very little impact to that end.


Your two paragraphs conflict with each other, just like the initial post does. First, if it actually was based off of "chance to proc", then you wouldn't see any increase in the PPM: as your haste increases, the time between each chance to proc decreases at the same rate as the direct haste multiplier increases the actual % chance to proc. Second, people with Windsong reach PPMs of 4-5 (or more) per stat with nowhere near 50% haste: haste scales the proc rate much faster than any of the described formulas.
Edited by Gyrobine on 11/29/2012 3:39 PM PST
90 Human Mage
12720
11/28/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Shadowwordp
so is windsong better than jade spirit?


^this
Edited by Ati on 11/29/2012 6:00 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
16765
11/29/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Gyrobine
First, if it actually was based off of "chance to proc", then you wouldn't see any increase in the PPM: as your haste increases, the time between each chance to proc decreases at the same rate as the direct haste multiplier increases the actual % chance to proc.


You're correct: the proc chance per cast doesn't change when casting indefinitely. But that means you get an increase in PPM as more events occur, all with equal proc chance as previously, within the same time frame.

For example, a 2.5s spell can be cast 4 times in 10 seconds with 0% Haste.
With 25% Haste, that spell becomes a 2.0s cast allowing you to cast it 5 times in those 10 seconds.

In both examples, each individual cast of the arbitrary spell has the same X% chance to proc it, except in the hasted scenario you have an additional event that triggers it in the same time frame. That's a direct increase to PPM.

Now consider when you aren't casting indefinitely within a time frame: the haste factor in the equation allows the hasted scenario to retain the same PPM without it being wasted just because there was nothing to heal for example. It normalizes it. In fact, without the haste in the equation, Haste rating from gear would actually cancel out the effects of RPPM.

11/29/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Gyrobine
Second, people with Windsong reach PPMs of 4-5 (or more) per stat with nowhere near 50% haste: haste scales the proc rate much faster than any of the described formulas.


Because it's probably bugged.
90 Gnome Warlock
1740
11/27/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Snowflurry
Im sure if we say yeah let us try mongoose , executioner and stuff we can get it.


Why would you want these enchants nerfed by putting them on the new system that caps them from going off more than, in the example of Crusader, 1 time per 60 seconds irrespective of the number of attacks that have gone off?
90 Gnome Warlock
1740
11/28/2012 07:04 AMPosted by Azuredemonx
This is nice and all but how able some new runes for dk's we have been stuck with the same ones for two xpacs now you think they would have figured out a new way to scribble on their weapons and make it do something by now.


With this change I'm actually afraid of them touching DK runes.
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