Resto Sham stats, gems, reforge discussion

90 Pandaren Shaman
3100
So I am seeing a hodgepodge of different stats across the board for most shaman right now. I see some old schoolers stacking haste and others stacking crit, I personally and going to switch over to crit right now for our current level of gear, I feel that with only 1 HoT haste just isn't cutting it in our current level of gear. I think maybe that will change when mana isn't an issue but currently its very hard to keep your mana up.

My current stat priority is going to be SPI>INT>CRI>=HASTE>MASTERY

What are you guys going for?
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11390
Pretty much the same thing over here. Since Healing Surge is now a viable and usable spell and since it synergizes so well with crit (Tidal Wave) i personally find it better to prioritize crit over haste (after the soft cap, wich is achievable with... pretty much no haste at all thanks to ancestral swiftness and raid buffs) or mastery.

I'm almost at 20% spell crit chance raid buffed right now and i love it. Getting so much mana back from resurgence.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
3100
Good to hear, I think we are on the right track right now. Also unleash elements into riptide is ticking for 38k crits all day long. Its about all I have to do right now to keep the tank up.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4270


My current stat priority is going to be SPI>INT>CRI>=HASTE>MASTERY



I agree that Haste has fallen behind, at least for the moment, but are we really prioritizing Spirit > Intellect now? I'm about to hit my first lfr tomorrow (yeah, I'm behind, had some rl conflicts with leveling time for the past couple weeks), should I expect to be completely unprepared with a mere 5k Spirit (+buffs/procs/etc)?

My preliminary reasoning tells me it should be Int~Spirit>Crit>Mastery>Haste, but I'd love to hear the reasoning if the prevailing wisdom says we should be investing gems & enchants into regen rather than throughput? The rule of thumb is ALWAYS prioritize throughput first, without throughput all the regen in the world won't matter. What's changed?

(btw, yes, I know my gems/enchants/gear is all over the place atm, I'm just kinda wearing whatever I could get my hands on and cheap enchants to hold me over until I get gear that is more 'permanent')
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11245
10/14/2012 10:42 PMPosted by Cyndäl
but are we really prioritizing Spirit > Intellect now? I'm about to hit my first lfr tomorrow (yeah, I'm behind, had some rl conflicts with leveling time for the past couple weeks), should I expect to be completely unprepared with a mere 5k Spirit (+buffs/procs/etc)?


They are about equal but the thing is int doesn't matter when you have no mana to cast a spell. LFR will not test you in the least. Pretty much all mechanics are ignored.

And your combat regen is fine as it is. If you are going to do normal modes you might want to stack up a little more spirit though.
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90 Troll Shaman
5950
Prioritizing SPI>INT is not a presonal choice as it would be for a Druid or a Pally, but rather a group choice. If you are 3 healing something, the extra SPI from MTT will benefit much more the same point value of INT, however on the other hand, while 2 healing INT helps to pick up a ton of slack healing.

The whole secondary stat comparison, in regards to crit, mastery, and haste is very similar. I personally prefer the haste breakpoint that benefits not only RT, but also HST, HR, ELW, and HTT. So Haste(15%)>Mastery(50%)>Crit>Mastery>Haste.
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10/15/2012 07:32 AMPosted by Discouraged
So Haste(15%)>Mastery(50%)>Crit>Mastery>Haste.


Im going with this, but still fighting over 2nd tier haste soft cap or 15% crit .
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90 Pandaren Shaman
13770
Offtopic: You don't know how jealous I am that you've already got 2pc T14, Lindseymarie. That's just...insane. /salute

Ontopic: I like Spirit > Int > Crit > Mastery > Haste at the moment.

Still tweaking my HEP addon, but I hate having to wait so long between raids in order to get feedback. Still don't have numbers to share yet, as a result :(

On last week's runs: Crit and Mastery are incredibly close in value, at least in Normals, to the point that Crit is superior due to Resurgence and potentially reduced overhealing through AA.

The Heroics that we tried were showing a stronger bias toward Mastery, but that's little surprise. I made a tweak after raids last week, though, as I felt it was producing a slight undervaluation of Crit (due to not taking into consideration current Crit%). Hopefully this weeks' numbers feel more concrete, and I can begin to share numbers with the community based on my raids.
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90 Draenei Shaman
4270
Prioritizing SPI>INT is not a presonal choice as it would be for a Druid or a Pally, but rather a group choice. If you are 3 healing something, the extra SPI from MTT will benefit much more the same point value of INT, however on the other hand, while 2 healing INT helps to pick up a ton of slack healing.

The whole secondary stat comparison, in regards to crit, mastery, and haste is very similar. I personally prefer the haste breakpoint that benefits not only RT, but also HST, HR, ELW, and HTT. So Haste(15%)>Mastery(50%)>Crit>Mastery>Haste.


I agree.... even during Cata I always maintained that my slightly-higher-than-suggested level of Spirit (including tokens + well-timed procs) was a direct concession to the benefit of my entire healing team (because of MTT); I guess that goes even more so in MoP, especially now that prioritizing Spirit (in lieu of Haste, Mastery, or even Int) isn't quite as detrimental to ourselves as it used to be.


They are about equal but the thing is int doesn't matter when you have no mana to cast a spell. LFR will not test you in the least. Pretty much all mechanics are ignored.

And your combat regen is fine as it is. If you are going to do normal modes you might want to stack up a little more spirit though.


Thanks Harpoa, it was just confusing me a little to see names I recognize and trust (like yours) gemming/enchanting for Spirit so heavily to the exclusion of Intellect, I wanted to understand if it's really that dire before I jump into my first MoP guild raid next week. :)

Overall, fwiw, I'm going with Int~Spirit>Crit~Mastery>Haste until I see hard evidence to the contrary. I like what Crit does for us now, and I like that they've balanced it so that we no longer have to avoid it like the plague, but I'm also conscious that I'm not willing to leave my healing prowess up to the rng, so I'll be carefully balancing it with Mastery to ensure that when I absolutely MUST get a huge lifesaving heal off I don't have to cross my fingers and pray for luck. So far, building my shaman this exp feels a lot more like building my priest did in MoP, lots of tricky decisions because there's no cut & dry "best" way to do it (as there was in Cata). I feel less certain that I have the "best" possible build, but I'm willing to live with that in favor of having choices. For now at least. ;)
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
Not a single thing has changed since cata in regards to gearing.

Crit is random, as such useless for throughput. It's a spirit replacement, not a throughput stat.

Mastery is best for progression fights.

Haste is best for farm.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11245
10/15/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Jynus
Not a single thing has changed since cata in regards to gearing.


Can't say i agree with that. Crit is MUCH better now than it was. Last night on will i gained 320k mana back via resurgence. Crit should not be looked at as a throughput stat or replacement for spirit specifically. Because it is both.
Edited by Harpoa on 10/16/2012 12:18 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
17085
10/15/2012 10:57 PMPosted by Jynus
Not a single thing has changed since cata in regards to gearing.


HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA

I ran H DS with less Spirit than any other stat.

I now CRAZY stack Spirit.

Yes, our gearing has changed dramatically.

Mastery is not that great of a stat when our other stats are bottomed out. Mastery also got an artificial boost from there now being a 900ish buff, that didn't exist before MoP. Which means, you don't need nearly as much Mastery on your gear as you did in DS to have the same (and in many cases more) healing from Deep Healing.

Our heals also don't heal quite as much as compared to the average tanks health pool. Which means CRIT is actually useful, as more than a simple mana regen stat. It also means that Mastery has more effect. Which in turn means, Critting a bigger heal = a bigger free heal from Ancestral Awakenings.

We also lost a ton of haste. Which means we lost ticks from Riptide, Earthliving, and Healing Rain.

In Cata, INT was stacked above all else. In MoP, I don't see the benefit of stacking INT over any other stat. There is no situation I have encountered in which more INT would have helped. More spirit, haste, crit, mastery yes. Int, not really.

Our secondary stats have some serious synergy. Don't neglect one to mad stack another.

And slap on as much Spirit as you can get. You need much more Spirit than most Shaman are used to (myself included).
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150

I ran H DS with less Spirit than any other stat.

I now CRAZY stack Spirit.

Yes, our gearing has changed dramatically.

whats your point?? you stacked spirit till you had enough to last a fight last tier, and are doing the same this tier. Is there some underlying philosophy i'm missing here?


Mastery is not that great of a stat when our other stats are bottomed out. Mastery also got an artificial boost from there now being a 900ish buff, that didn't exist before MoP. Which means, you don't need nearly as much Mastery on your gear as you did in DS to have the same (and in many cases more) healing from Deep Healing.

Mastery is fine when other stats are bottomed out. The idea of diminishing returns is a myth. Mathamatically it's possible, but simply does not exist in game as the discrepancy needed to see it is utterly unrealistic. However, you are correct in the sense that at a tier start other stats have close value to mastery. But don't forget mastery actually has increasing returns the more you get compared to other stats as it's a % of a % increase to throughput. meaning 100 mastery vs 100 crit gives a very small boost to hps. but 5000 mastery vs 5000 crit means it's a way larger hps increase. Basically the more we gear, the better mastery becomes. In fact your point about having a large boost to mastery naturally is reason to value and stack it even moreso as it's has that much more throughput increase.

Our heals also don't heal quite as much as compared to the average tanks health pool. Which means CRIT is actually useful, as more than a simple mana regen stat. It also means that Mastery has more effect. Which in turn means, Critting a bigger heal = a bigger free heal from Ancestral Awakenings.

crit is a proc. Relying on proc to heal = bad. When u need it, mastery gives you on demand hps. crit does not. This is like healing 101 dude. You do NOT ever play a style where you're dependent upon procs to do your job. And stacking crit does exactly this I'm afraid.


In Cata, INT was stacked above all else. In MoP, I don't see the benefit of stacking INT over any other stat. There is no situation I have encountered in which more INT would have helped. More spirit, haste, crit, mastery yes. Int, not really.

this is where you lost me and frankly bring into question some serious credibility issues. Each point of int gives every heal you cast more healing done. I honestly don't know what to say when you say you can't see where healing more per spell would have helped you...

Until we're able to heal 80% of a persons health bar per heal, Int will ALWAYS be our prime and best stat. This isn't ICC anymore, the bigger heals we can put out, the better.
Edited by Jynus on 10/16/2012 3:41 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
But don't forget mastery actually has increasing returns the more you get compared to other stats as it's a % of a % increase to throughput. meaning 100 mastery vs 100 crit gives a very small boost to hps. but 5000 mastery vs 5000 crit means it's a way larger hps increase.


You should probably check your math. Or review percentages. Are you referencing critical thresholds? That wouldn't be unique to Mastery and it's definitely not some exponential function as you propose.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
10/16/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Aurinaux
But don't forget mastery actually has increasing returns the more you get compared to other stats as it's a % of a % increase to throughput. meaning 100 mastery vs 100 crit gives a very small boost to hps. but 5000 mastery vs 5000 crit means it's a way larger hps increase.


You should probably check your math. Or review percentages. Are you referencing critical thresholds? That wouldn't be unique to Mastery and it's definitely not some exponential function as you propose.

long as you're healing someone under a breakpoint, mastery gives increasing returns the more you stack compared to equal numbers of other stats. I have checked the math. Hell, I was on of the originators of the math.

A x% increase of crit gives a x% increase to hps

A x% increase of mastery gives (up to)3%* a x% increase to hps.
Edited by Jynus on 10/16/2012 4:57 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
10/16/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Jynus
A x% increase of mastery gives (up to)3%* a x% increase to hps.


An X% additive increase in the magnitude of your Mastery bonus is an X% increase in HPS relative to your base HPS. No 3% modifier.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8150
10/16/2012 05:53 PMPosted by Aurinaux
A x% increase of mastery gives (up to)3%* a x% increase to hps.


An X% additive increase in the magnitude of your Mastery bonus is an X% increase in HPS relative to your base HPS. No 3% modifier.

By itself you are correct, but has increasing compared to other stats. I found an archive of the concept back when it was first mathed out. a lil small, but it explains it perfectly.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDfL4k1b88WIJU7o75w18IV_4txIsQNj-CF7pZDY0by-Fem3T1

Using level 85 figures. At 700 mastery gives the same hps increase as 2000crit when healing someone near death. And 2000 mastery gives far superior hps than 4000crit. Thats increasing returns mate. Same principle applies to mop as mastery/crit hasn't been changed.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16765
Oh that's what you mean. You should really be very specific otherwise I have to make a lot of assumptions about what was only likely conveyed.

10/16/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Jynus
But don't forget mastery actually has increasing returns the more you get compared to other stats as it's a % of a % increase to throughput.


This is still incorrect. The premise is somewhat consistent, but the implication is not.

At 700 mastery gives the same hps increase as 2000crit when healing someone near death. And 2000 mastery gives far superior hps than 4000crit. Thats increasing returns mate.


Of course Mastery does massively more HPS per point at 0% HP, otherwise Mastery would be a horrible stat.

They are linear functions. Let's hypothesize a similar scenario. Let the function y(t)=2t represent the number of cookies I have eaten at any given time. Let the function z(t)=3t represent the number of cookies you have eaten at any given time.

So at t=0, we have both eaten 0 cookies. Similarly at 0 Mastery or 0 Crit, we both have no HPS gain.

At t=5, I've eaten 10 cookies and you've eaten 15 cookies. You've eaten 50% more cookies than I have.
At t=25, I've eaten 50 cookies, and you've eaten 75 cookies. You've eaten 50% more cookies than I have.
At t=9000, I've eaten 18000 cookies, and you've eaten 27000 cookies. You've eaten 50% more cookies than have.

We went from only having eaten 5 more cookies than me to having eaten 9000 more cookies than me! Yet you always eat a constant 50% more than me. The actual returns aren't increasing: for any t+1, you only eat 3 more cookies at every given t.

Now let's consider another example, using MoP values. Assuming no base stats:

We have 20000 Mastery and 0 Crit. At 0% HP, we do 100% more HPS relative to the base.
Add 5000 more Mastery: we now do 125% more HPS relative to the base.
Instead add 5000 Crit: we now do 126.7% more HPS relative to the base.

In this case, Crit succeeded Mastery.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
11245
10/16/2012 03:28 PMPosted by Jynus
crit is a proc. Relying on proc to heal = bad. When u need it, mastery gives you on demand hps. crit does not. This is like healing 101 dude.


You can't look at crit as a means to boost a "single" heal. Well at least i don't. A fight is a marathon, not a sprint, so when you take into account the entire body of the fight crit isn't a bad stat. I don't think anyone in their right mind would be looking for a crit to save someone from an untimely demise.
Edited by Harpoa on 10/17/2012 3:59 AM PDT
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Crit is not a bad stat.... If your dropping a healing rain yes you will get more crits. But this is what we should look at crit for. Crit does more than just a higher heal for single target. It becomes a smart heal and a mana regen. Its not a terrible stat as people make it sound. Yes mastery works wonders, haste is good but only if you are able to get another tick on hots or totems.

We worked on heroic stone guard last night. All im healing is a tank and to be honest if my crit % was around 25% it would help alot. The mana return and smart heal going off would make a difference when dps needs heals but i cant stop healing the damage the tank takes.

But resto at the moment is haste>spirit>mastery>haste>crit...

Only reason im saying haste before spirit is for a extra ticks.
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