Where do YOU notice Holy's lack of AoE?

85 Human Paladin
5250
This is just a quick list of places I've encountered while leveling up where I go: "... where is my AoE button?".

I'd like you to add your own specific situations where not having any AoE button makes it feel like you're lacking a tool the situation was designed around expecting.

This isn't about explaining why Holy should have AoE or why you hate not having it, it's just a summary of situations where it feels totally silly to not be able to do anything. In other words, giving the devs concrete examples rather than just generalized displeasure.

  • Vermin gate trap between different sections of Stratholme Service Gate. Party is swarmed by annoying little adds. No one needs healing. I pathetically turn on Seal of Righteousness, give up, and cry.
  • Lyceum in BRD. Party is swarmed by annoying little adds. No one needs healing. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.
  • Crystal packs in Halls of Stone. Party is swarmed by annoying little adds. No one needs healing. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.
  • Zombie swarms in Culling of Stratholme. Party is swarmed by annoying little adds. No one needs healing. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.
  • "Flamebreak" quest in Hyjal. I dissolve a giant fire elemental into like 20 little pieces. I pathetically tab through with Denounce.
  • Throne of the Tides: Murloc packs during Nazjar gauntlet and during Ozumat event; Goblins during lead up to Erunak; tainted elementals during gauntlet before Ozumat. Party is swarmed by annoying little adds. No one needs healing. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.
  • Halls of Origination, first boss: Party rounds up snakes. Heals under control. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.
  • End Time: Emerald Dragonshrine. Totally weak fluff shadow adds swarm into beams of light. No tank worth a damn needs any healing. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.
  • Well of Eternity: Gimmick pull full of Dreadguards before Mannoroth. No one ever needs healing. AoE slaughterfest as any other healing spec. I pathetically try to tab through with Denounce.


I'm probably forgetting like 50 other situations, but I'm tired. I'll add more as I encounter or remember them. :p
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90 Human Paladin
5785
stampede
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90 Human Paladin
7130
Get to 90 and get holy prism or light's hammer boom problem solved.
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85 Human Paladin
5250
10/17/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Unholywraith
Get to 90 and get holy prism or light's hammer boom problem solved.
That does not address any of the situations I mentioned. It's also a very clumsy solution since 1 AoE per minute is no better than Engineering bombs, and a strange 5-target cleave at max level which subs out your other talent choices is not the same thing as baseline AoE.

10/17/2012 08:12 AMPosted by Sparklefever
Nowhere, because Holy is not a DPS spec. :/
This also does not address the topic I brought up, since Holy being or not being a DPS spec does not change the fact that situations occur where a player feels its strange vacuum of AoE damage. It also does not account for why every other healer has some sort of AoE button. It further does not address the reality that all specs and roles have situations where they have valid motivation to perform cross-spec activities.

With all due respect, stop pretending it's Vanilla/TBC and that rolling Healer automagically excuses you from doing anything but staring at health bars. There's much more crossover (much more) in capabilities now and it's perfectly valid to go heavy Holy for efficiency or because you simply enjoy being ranged / caster.

Again, it sounds like the ancient echoes of things like "Stop complaining about your DPS, Retribution is a leveling spec". And again, no one is asking to outcompete the Demo Warlock with full Fury on a swarm pull. Simply asking for a legitimate baseline AoE tool is far from that.
Edited by Fleureau on 10/17/2012 12:43 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7130
How can you objectively say that it's not a good solution since you have yet to reach level 90 and test it out for yourself?
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85 Human Paladin
5250
10/17/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Unholywraith
How can you objectively say that it's not a good solution since you have yet to reach level 90 and test it out for yourself?
Because I leveled a Pally to 90 on Beta.

Additionally, even if I didn't, I play the game, I am not stupid, and can comprehend what "1 minute cooldown" means and how it relates to the pacing of the game. I also comprehend that you pick 1 talent, not all 3, and thus are making a sometimes-significant tradeoff just to be capable of AoE if you stumble into a situation motivating it.

Further, I have leveled to 85 using Engineering bombs on cooldown the entire time. Burst AoE once per minute is not a suitable substitute for a consistent basic AoE button. They are different tools, used in different ways.
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90 Human Paladin
7130
I'm not calling you stupid at all, I just didn't understand how you could dismiss it if you hadn't tried it. That being said, I think the aoe damage (atleast as ret, not sure how spec effects the dmg/healing tradeoff) of holy prism is nice but obviously not a substitute for spammable aoe. I don't just understand your concern for aoe damage as holy, which is primarily a healing spec.
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85 Human Paladin
5250
Oh, I know. Sorry if that came across wrong, it was a fine question. I just tend to speak rhetorically; I meant "basic reading skills and game experience will tell you what you're getting into with this ability, even if you haven't used it yet".

I guess we just come from different perspectives. Ranged/caster specs appeal to me a great deal and I love using Holy. I'm really just happy as a divine bivalve prancing around in a spellcaster spec/gear 24/7. Maybe I've been spoiled rotten by playing other healers who can do just that.

I'm totally fine with doing less damage than a dedicated spec — I'd be thrilled with a 4th caster DPS spec for Pally, but I'm definitely not advocating for that here. I just want 1 simple tool. ._.

In MoP, Holy actually has a genuine damage cycle if glyphed properly and the sub-spec actually has teeth if geared/used properly. Most of the time, I'm totally happy with what I can do solo, or during lulls in damage intake in groups. It's just missing 1 basic little tool for self-sufficiency.
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90 Human Paladin
16250
You are a healing spec. You do not need AoE DAMAGE. Things have been solved long ago with dual spec. Switch to dps or tank if you want to aoe. Stop asking for something you do not need and make use of the alternatives that have been in place for years.
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85 Human Paladin
5250
With all due respect: No.

"You're a Ret Paladin, you're a leveling spec, stop complaining about your raid DPS". Yeah, I'm sure all the Rets today are glad people listened to the forums back then.

I like my caster spec, I don't want to tank, I cannot stand Ret's xylophone CD whack-a-mole cycle, and I don't want to accumulate a bunch of other gearsets for inconsistent situations when this spec can handle most of my needs just fine.

I also don't want to spend an entire dual spec slot to get 1 skill button, when I'm perfectly happy going Holy/Holy in every other situation. Give me a genuine caster DPS spec for Pally and I'll happily dualspec into that. Until then, I like my Shockadin setup.

I want a frequently-useable AoE button. I don't care if it's amazing, I don't care if it competes with a Demo Lock running into the Monkey room in Stormstout with 1000 Demonic Fury saved up. I just want that simple tool on hand.
Edited by Fleureau on 10/17/2012 1:26 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
7130
I don't know if getting any new aoe would be an option, what with the QQ about healer damage after the whole holy shock/penance ridiculousness, but I do think that taking consecration/holy wrath away from all specs but prot was kinda silly.
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90 Human Paladin
16250

Give me a genuine caster DPS spec for Pally


You already answered this.

With all due respect: No.


You have no right or reason to havea caster spec. Paladins have never in any lore what so ever been spell casters. WoW is unique with making them actual healers and not just minor stuff like traditonal cases have been.

You are given minor damage abilities to allow you to solo. You have been given the option to dual spec if you are unhappy with your solo speed as holy.

You do not NEED a caster dps spec as holy. You do not NEED Aoe damage. That is not the role of the spec.

It's akin to warlock/hunters/enchanment shaman asking for tank spec.
Or enchancment asking for 2h spec.
Paladins asking for dual wield.

All things that are not needed. If you want to caster dps you have boomkin, 3 mage specs, 3 warlock specs, elemental, spriest. 9 specs that all are proper caster dps with that intent in their design.

Also ret paladins are asking for their intended design, dps. To be on par for doing exactly that. You are asking for a compeletly different function than what the spec is intended to do. Holy paladin = healing. That's how it's been since release. That's how it will continue to be no matter how much you cry, ask, plead, beg or try otherwise.
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90 Human Paladin
6940
You have no right or reason to havea caster spec. Paladins have never in any lore what so ever been spell casters.


Funny you should say that; read the "Unbroken" short story:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/short-story/unbroken/1

When I read that back in TBC, I was jealous of the paladins in that story, because they sounded more like DPS casters than what I was. Not that I think paladins ought to be DPS casters (nor that I'd mind that as a 4th spec someday), but the point is that, the way this story made it sound, paladins had an on-demand, ranged damage spell, which---at the time---I was craving.

10/17/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Khalad
You do not NEED Aoe damage. That is not the role of the spec.


The purpose of this thread is to dispel this belief: we do need AoE damage while soloing. Will we use an AoE damage ability in raids? Not unless our raid is desperate for AoE-ing down adds. Just because it's not our spec's role doesn't mean we don't need it; I mean, let's take your logic to its logical conclusion: why not take all damage-dealing abilities whatsoever away from the Holy spec, since their role is healing? I mean, if you're not supposed to solo as Holy, if you're supposed to go to a Ret or Prot offspec to level and solo and do quests, then what do Holy paladins need Denounce for?

To answer the OP's original question (which this thread has strayed away from):

10/16/2012 10:26 PMPosted by Fleureau
I'd like you to add your own specific situations where not having any AoE button makes it feel like you're lacking a tool the situation was designed around expecting.


I would've felt the lack of this in two places in particular:

1) In the Jade Forest when I was at the Monastery, and there was a quest where I had to survive an onslaught of low-max-health monks that kept coming at me.
2) In the Valley of the Four Winds, near the Master's house, where there were swarms of insects that put a stacking poison DoT on me. The plan with those insects for soloing players was that the player would AoE down those bugs quickly, before the DoT became overwhelming. But if you don't have an AoE...?

So yeah: we really do need some kind of AoE damage, like it or not.
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85 Human Paladin
5250
10/17/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Khalad
You have no right or reason to havea caster spec. Paladins have never in any lore what so ever been spell casters.
With all due respect, you have no right or reason to tell me what I have a right or reason to request since you do not develop the game.

WoW is unique with making them actual healers and not just minor stuff like traditonal cases have been.
WoW simply merged a Cleric and a Paladin into one class. An armor-plated mace-and-shield wielding healer is ancient retread territory in the realm of fantasy fiction.

You are given minor damage abilities to allow you to solo. You have been given the option to dual spec if you are unhappy with your solo speed as holy.
Are you even reading what we write? I've said multiple times I'm very happy with my soloing as Holy, I just lack a tool I feel I should have.

You do not NEED a caster dps spec as holy. You do not NEED Aoe damage. That is not the role of the spec.
It's a computer game, we do not NEED anything. Tanks do not NEED taunts, they could just play better and DPS could be more careful and you could precisely calibrate your Omen timing on tank swap fights. But why?

It's akin to warlock/hunters/enchanment shaman asking for tank spec.
Or enchancment asking for 2h spec.
Paladins asking for dual wield.
I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that asking for 1 short/no CD AoE tool is the same as demanding a complete role change, sir.
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85 Human Paladin
5250
I would've felt the lack of this in two places in particular [...]
So yeah: we really do need some kind of AoE damage, like it or not.
It's frustrating because in the situations you describe, it's technically "doable". You have enough self-healing and cooldowns and gimmix that you can slog through it with single-target cycling.

So technically people can say, "Well you can complete it, stop complaining". But... I mean... it just feels so Vanilla Retro (in a design sense) to have to jump through those kind of hoops to solve a simple problem that everyone else just goes "Press AoE button".

I think again part of the problem is that Pally is the only healer that really can't just recycle their gear into a DPS spec (Ele / Shadow) or stance (Cat / Serpent). It feels odd to be told to keep an entire set of ghetto gear or a dual spec you don't intend to use for anything else, just to solve the occasional AoE moment.
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I leveled as holy in just about every expansion, and this one is the only one where it's become painfully obvious that we lack any acceptable form of AoE abilities (seal of righteous is laughable) and around halfway through 87 I was kicking myself thinking "why did I decide this was a good idea?"

Single target isn't so bad, we can spam denounce and use holy shock and crusader strike to build holy power to use WoG with the glyph (although mana really became an issue for me 88+ and I found myself drinking after nearly every pull) and still do acceptable damage by questing and leveling standards.

It's when we pull (by accident or on purpose) anything greater than 2-3 mobs that we begin to have difficulty. Even the "easier" mobs with the new health bars that make up the majority of large groups become a PITA. It's not that we can't kill them or have any sort of difficulty staying alive. Sure we can single target each one and kill them that way. It just takes forever.
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90 Human Paladin
5785
This whole thread is tl:dr

/hairflip and call it a day gentlemen.
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90 Human Paladin
8025
If holy pallys don't need a damaging spell, then ret/prot pallys don't need any healing spells because that Ian the purpos of their class
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90 Human Paladin
6350
tldr:

"Blizzard didn't make this spec exactly like I wanted them too. That must mean that Paladin's are broken in some way!"
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