STR vs PvP Power: simplified

100 Blood Elf Warrior
13490
10/15/2012 05:34 PMPosted by Kamdar
personally i got for crit/power in my yellows you spend most of time in D stance any aways more crits more rage more rage more dmg, as for the self only JC gems i webt with full str ones cause 1 for 1 str still better then power


There's a lot of math in this threat that shows that that isn't true.
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96 Gnome Warrior
15800
This saves me the trouble. It sadly is unlikely to help though.

Everything you said is more or less true at 0% pvp power (it's actually 14ap per dps btw).
However 1% pvp power at 30% pvp power for instance is actually only a 0.77% increase.


PvP Power will always decline when you stack more of it(in relation to str). The most effective use of pvp power is when you have none. But using my DPS stat weight we can calculate when PvP power will == strength.


This is not exactly true. It has linear returns, the same way that AP does. This is different from pvp resilience which has exponential returns, or avoidance that has diminishing returns. Yes it is less valuable in that you have a huge sea of it, just as a crusader proc on your heirloom weapon makes your level 1 godly but is less good at level 60. For the sake of not spreading misinformation, i wouldn't get into the nitty gritty and just refrain from saying that its value changes.

The only way it really goes wonky is when you have significantly more of one stat than the other. In the same way crit/haste/and mastery get higher values with higher levels of strength.

I'd also recommend this thread: http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/232235-are-warriors-graced-with-any-resident-theorycrafters/
where one of my warrior heros, and warlock hero, gets frustrated with the arena junkies lack of theorcrafters and makes a spreadsheet.

p.s. I may not do arena anymore, but I loves me some theorycrafting!
Edited by Quinten on 10/15/2012 6:30 PM PDT
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30 Blood Elf Paladin
400
that was very Cocky way of explaining, but was definitely helpful.
Edited by Zadoni on 10/20/2012 8:59 AM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
12355
10/15/2012 02:39 PMPosted by Weinercopter
It is a very simple concept, a class that uses weapon damage will always scale better off a pvp power coefficient than an additive flat damage (strength).

So for casters go for int and melee go for pvp power?
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90 Human Warrior
8300
10/15/2012 06:29 PMPosted by Quinten
This is not exactly true. It has linear returns, the same way that AP does. This is different from pvp resilience which has exponential returns, or avoidance that has diminishing returns. Yes it is less valuable in that you have a huge sea of it, just as a crusader proc on your heirloom weapon makes your level 1 godly but is less good at level 60.


What I said is true. The more PvP Power you stack increases the effectiveness of strength. The amount of percentage of damage you gain is a linear function, but the relationship between PvP power and strength is non linear. It is very important to understand that there are two variables in this equation: PvP Power and DPS (mostly from weapon). So while PvP power increases the usefulness of strength, IE the ratio shifts toward 1:1, increasing weapon DPS shifts the ratio faster in the other direction. Keep in mind a change in 100 weapon DPS is equivalent to 800 strength.
Edited by Weinercopter on 10/20/2012 10:16 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
8300
10/20/2012 10:00 AMPosted by Akraun
So for casters go for int and melee go for pvp power?


Casters have an odd relationship between spell power coefficients and actual spell damage achieved. I have not done the mathematical legwork to prove my assumptions, but I get the feeling that PvP power will be the best, but intellect will be more useful for casters than strength will be for weapon damage based classes. The reason I think this is because depending on cast speed it lowers contributions of spell power to a given spell. So instant spells dont gain full spell power damage but a lower percentage than a longer casted spell. This is why percentage scaling damage regardless of cast speeds should be the superior stat.
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90 Human Warrior
8300
Thanks for this. Quite helpful.

If you get extra socket spaces what would you recommend putting in those? The Str/Power?


Pure PvP Power. By far the best stat. Yellow sockets are personal preference and team comp oriented you can go crit/power or resil/power your choice.
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90 Undead Mage
12355
So for casters go for int and melee go for pvp power?


Casters have an odd relationship between spell power coefficients and actual spell damage achieved. I have not done the mathematical legwork to prove my assumptions, but I get the feeling that PvP power will be the best, but intellect will be more useful for casters than strength will be for weapon damage based classes. The reason I think this is because depending on cast speed it lowers contributions of spell power to a given spell. So instant spells dont gain full spell power damage but a lower percentage than a longer casted spell. This is why percentage scaling damage regardless of cast speeds should be the superior stat.

Thank you for the quick response! :)
Edited by Akraun on 10/20/2012 10:39 AM PDT
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96 Gnome Warrior
15800
What I said is true. The more PvP Power you stack increases the effectiveness of strength. The amount of percentage of damage you gain is a linear function, but the relationship between PvP power and strength is non linear. It is very important to understand that there are two variables in this equation: PvP Power and DPS (mostly from weapon). So while PvP power increases the usefulness of strength, IE the ratio shifts toward 1:1, increasing weapon DPS shifts the ratio faster in the other direction. Keep in mind a change in 100 weapon DPS is equivalent to 800 strength.


I am not disputing that they have a non-linear interaction. What I am saying is that saying that PVP power diminishes at higher levels is confusing and unnecessary. The theoretical setup where str overtakes pvp power requires a very disjointed set of gear that will not be found on someone geared with a normal deviation of item level, particularly with the weapon.

People start thinking that PVP power has a diminishing return, it doesn't. Some people even start thinking there are break points, there aren't. Going from 29% pvp power to 30% is the exact same damage increase, in terms of flat value, as going from 30% to 31%. Yes it is a lower % increase, but it is the same flat increase.

Going around spouting things like this, while technically correct, does nothing but spread confusion. It behaves the exact same way that haste, mastery, and ap do. If it becomes an extreme theoretical outlier then its relative value increases slightly but there rarely reaches a point where stat priorities shift.

This is why most pve guides will spout something along the lines of str>crit>mastery>haste. They don't throw useless accuracy and say Str decreases in value at higher levels. It doesn't but the values of the other stats do increase if those stats are artificially suppressed.
Edited by Quinten on 10/20/2012 11:28 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
8350
Thanks for the number crunch. Also...Its good to know I'm not the only one shoulder-less. It must be our price for being beautiful.
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90 Human Paladin
12145
maths.. oh god..
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100 Orc Warrior
17945
What about the 2385 pvp power on the 470 2handers vs the superior weapon damage of a 489?
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90 Human Warrior
8300
10/20/2012 11:27 AMPosted by Quinten
What I said is true. The more PvP Power you stack increases the effectiveness of strength. The amount of percentage of damage you gain is a linear function, but the relationship between PvP power and strength is non linear. It is very important to understand that there are two variables in this equation: PvP Power and DPS (mostly from weapon). So while PvP power increases the usefulness of strength, IE the ratio shifts toward 1:1, increasing weapon DPS shifts the ratio faster in the other direction. Keep in mind a change in 100 weapon DPS is equivalent to 800 strength.


I am not disputing that they have a non-linear interaction. What I am saying is that saying that PVP power diminishes at higher levels is confusing and unnecessary. The theoretical setup where str overtakes pvp power requires a very disjointed set of gear that will not be found on someone geared with a normal deviation of item level, particularly with the weapon.

People start thinking that PVP power has a diminishing return, it doesn't. Some people even start thinking there are break points, there aren't. Going from 29% pvp power to 30% is the exact same damage increase, in terms of flat value, as going from 30% to 31%. Yes it is a lower % increase, but it is the same flat increase.

Going around spouting things like this, while technically correct, does nothing but spread confusion. It behaves the exact same way that haste, mastery, and ap do. If it becomes an extreme theoretical outlier then its relative value increases slightly but there rarely reaches a point where stat priorities shift.

This is why most pve guides will spout something along the lines of str>crit>mastery>haste. They don't throw useless accuracy and say Str decreases in value at higher levels. It doesn't but the values of the other stats do increase if those stats are artificially suppressed.


It is all interrelated. DPS is somewhat of an equation of numerous variables so the best we can do is set constants and look at differentials at a given point. Which is why I encourage everyone to use the formula for themselves because every setup is unique. It is a true statement I don't see how disregarding stat relationships is a bad thing. Sure some choices are obvious but when they aren't the little factors matter.
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90 Human Warrior
8300
10/20/2012 08:28 PMPosted by Uglykal
What about the 2385 pvp power on the 470 2handers vs the superior weapon damage of a 489?


Let me get some numbers for the weapons.
Starshatter
Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword

Since most of the calculations require specific gear I will just use mine.
Current weapon DPS 3285, 899 str and 35.89% pvp power and 6065 DPS

So total weapon DPS change using Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword would be 230.5, strength was included.
- delta DPS = 3506.8 - 3285 + (960-899)/7
So current DPS with PvP power would be 6295.5*1.44323 = 9085.9

Now using Starshatter delta DPS would be 936.29
- delta DPS = 4186 - 3285 + (1146-899)/7
Current DPS with PvP power 7001.29*1.3589 = 9514.05

These are baseline calculations so with cooldowns and trinkets popped it would be a closer battle, but it seems, much to my despair, that the PvE weapon would be better because of the massive DPS difference.

So lets look at my current pvp power 35.89% we can figure out a formula to figure out what weapon dps we need to achieve to ignore the loss of PvP power.

6294.7*1.44323 = X*1.3589
X = 6294.7*(1.44323/1.3589) //these values you can change
basic formula
X = total DPS*(1+pvp power with old/1+ pvp power of new weapon)
X = 6685.33
subtracting that from our current DPS we get a change of 390.63 DPS. So if a weapon grants 0 pvp power but adds 390.63 DPS it will be the exact same change.
Edited by Weinercopter on 10/21/2012 9:58 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Warrior
8110
So after all that talk blizz put out about how PvE weapons weren't going to define pvp

They're still THAT much better????

FUUUUUUUU#$*#%
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90 Human Warrior
8300

You're not discounting PvP power properly. The Equation should take the form:

265 = 355(1 - (x+0.01)/x)*100%


that simplifies down to:
265 = 355(1 - x/x - 0.01/x)
265 = 355(-0.01/x)

Which doesn't really make any sense. All I did was take the equivalent formula I had and change the variable to PvP Power. Now what this says is when strength is equal to pvp power, point for point, at a set DPS it requires this much PvP Power. I'll add in my algebra steps:

265 = [6031/((1+x)*100)]*8
265*(1+x) = [6031/100]*8
(1+x) = [6031/100]*8/265
x = 6031/(26500)*8 - 1
x = 0.8207 pvp power

The answer then seems reasonable because increasing PvP power actually lowers to PvP Power to Strength ratio. At 6031 DPS with 82.07% PvP power it is almost exactly 1:1.

265 = [6031/(1.8207*100)]*8
265 = 264.996979
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100 Night Elf Warrior
7260
10/15/2012 03:01 PMPosted by Büeller
I just like to smack people with my weapon.


I lol'd so hard I spit beer all over my keyboard.
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