Vengeance Hotfix Clarification

Community Manager
There has been some confusion about the recent changes to Vengeance that we’d like to clear up. Two things have changed with Vengeance lately:

  • Oct 8 - Vengeance should now ramp up more quickly. Avoidance will now grant Vengeance based on the average damage of the avoided NPC auto-attack, instead of just refreshing existing Vengeance. This does not apply to enemy special attacks.

There should be an addition to this: Vengeance was also reduced by 10% at the time that hotfix was noted. We apologize for that being missed in the patch notes. Vengeance now accrues at a rate of 1.8% of damage taken, down from 2.0%.

  • Oct 16 - Fixed an issue with the way that Vengeance is calculated that could cause very large but infrequent spikes of damage to grant much more than the intended amount of Vengeance.

Based on the hits a tank takes, Vengeance attempts to predict what 50% of average Vengeance for that level of incoming damage will be, and bumps the tank straight to that level. However, it previously based that calculation on a 1.5 second attack speed. It now bases the calculation on the enemy’s auto attack speed for auto attacks, and a 60 second interval for special attacks.

Tanks will still get the expected amount of Vengeance from the damage taken. This change just means that the first hit from a slow-attacking boss will bump Vengeance straight up to the expected amount.
Edited by Daxxarri on 10/22/2012 11:59 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
15255
Thankyou! I know our tanks have been wanting to know what happend.
Edited by Blackwarlock on 10/22/2012 12:06 PM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
8790
Thanks!!!
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90 Orc Death Knight
8890
10/22/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Nakotsu
either way you you look at this you have fubar tanks.


No.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
13310
10/22/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Daxxarri
We apologize for that being missed in the patch notes


You Blues have been doing this a lot lately. First this, then the Conquest cap "fix" you guys implemented with no warning, screwing people out of Conquest caps midweek while letting others slip by. Your Activision is starting to shine through.....
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Yeah gonna have to go with Foibles here, Nakotsu. No.

Thank you for the clarification, Daxxarri, it's much appreciated.
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85 Troll Mage
15675
Thanks Daxx. I saw talk that there was possible undocumented hotfix. Thanks for the clarification. Just updated the guardian and Prot Pally modules of Rawr with the change.
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90 Troll Death Knight
19820
...a 60 second interval for special attacks.

Next time, let's not apply a hotfix like this in the middle of primetime raiding. Allowing some raids to learn their encounters with this in and others having to relearn their fights in the middle of the week, let alone the middle of a raid is complete garbage.

Your timing on this one was really stinky. You can take that back to the devs.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12430
10/22/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Based on the hits a tank takes, Vengeance attempts to predict what 50% of average Vengeance for that level of incoming damage will be, and bumps the tank straight to that level. However, it previously based that calculation on a 1.5 second attack speed. It now bases the calculation on the enemy’s auto attack speed for auto attacks, and a 60 second interval for special attacks.


Thanks for the explanation. Going from BIGHIT/1.5 down to BIGHIT/60 seems like an over-the-top swing in the other direction, but it was obviously being abused. Stacking CDs and standing in 1-shot mechanics might have been fun for a while, but I'm sure it would get old and emasculate DPS :-P
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90 Tauren Druid
13625
10/22/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Krinu
Thank you for the clarification, Daxxarri, it's much appreciated.

Quoting for truth. It makes me feel much less crazy to have that 10% nerf confirmed, and it also makes me feel a lot better about the recent change to hear how it works. I'd only checked for quest mobs (2s swing timer) so all I'd seen was a 25% nerf, but seeing it explained makes it so much more sensible, and a very good change.

I do have a question about something though:

10/22/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Daxxarri
and a 60 second interval for special attacks.

That floor is (much) less than the amount of vengeance you'd normally get from the attack. In other words, that floor will never come into play. I do think that's a good change, but I have to wonder, why bother calculating it at all if it's never going to be used?
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90 Human Warlock
15680
Well this didn't take long to get invaded by the blizzard sucks crowd and the up and coming "wtf our tanks don't do 200k dps how can we progress" crowd.
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1 Human Rogue
0
10/22/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Nakotsu
on average tanks have around 450k-500k hp pools dps right now 400k.... seems a bit off dont you think. Maybe you should fix it so dps hp pools are 200k no higher and healers 180k or lower!


Ignoring the obvious idiocy in this post, I'd like to point one thing out:

A DK tank should easily have around 500k+ HP unbuffed (600k+ buffed), and DPS/healers don't really have 400k HP unless they are geared and buffed.

That is, unless you are comparing extremely geared DPS (who will have 400k+ HP) to undergeared or poorly geared tanks (such as your poor glove, leg, shoulder, and chest enchants).

In which case you can make the same argument, BiS tanks doing more DPS than fresh 90s must obviously be a "bad" thing. Nerf tank damage by 50%+ then.
Edited by Willinraven on 10/22/2012 3:19 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
10/22/2012 02:18 PMPosted by Bdwong
Well this didn't take long to get invaded by the blizzard sucks crowd and the up and coming "wtf our tanks don't do 200k dps how can we progress" crowd.
You sound surprised.
-----
Combat tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
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90 Orc Monk
Woe
9965
Tank DPS discussion aside, is anything going to be done about the huge survivability nerf that this handed out?

In the case of tank self heals Guardians, Brewmasters, Prot Paladins, and to an extent Prot Warriors (with barrier) are all pretty dependent on being able to react to a huge damage spike with an AP-driven self heal.

In the particular case of Guardian Druids and Brewmasters, we are solely dependent on AP-driven heals and have no other cooldowns or abilities that provide health % based heals or any emergency heals like Lay on Hands.

Death Strike still uses actual incoming damage, so this change also seems like a relative power increase for DKs, who were already in a very good spot. Was this intended?
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90 Night Elf Monk
15425
Tank DPS discussion aside, is anything going to be done about the huge survivability nerf that this handed out?

In the case of tank self heals Guardians, Brewmasters, Prot Paladins, and to an extent Prot Warriors (with barrier) are all pretty dependent on being able to react to a huge damage spike with an AP-driven self heal.

In the particular case of Guardian Druids and Brewmasters, we are solely dependent on AP-driven heals and have no other cooldowns or abilities that provide health % based heals or any emergency heals like Lay on Hands.

Death Strike still uses actual incoming damage, so this change also seems like a relative power increase for DKs, who were already in a very good spot. Was this intended?


10/22/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Tanks will still get the expected amount of Vengeance from the damage taken.
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90 Orc Monk
Woe
9965
Tank DPS discussion aside, is anything going to be done about the huge survivability nerf that this handed out?

In the case of tank self heals Guardians, Brewmasters, Prot Paladins, and to an extent Prot Warriors (with barrier) are all pretty dependent on being able to react to a huge damage spike with an AP-driven self heal.

In the particular case of Guardian Druids and Brewmasters, we are solely dependent on AP-driven heals and have no other cooldowns or abilities that provide health % based heals or any emergency heals like Lay on Hands.

Death Strike still uses actual incoming damage, so this change also seems like a relative power increase for DKs, who were already in a very good spot. Was this intended?


10/22/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Daxxarri
Tanks will still get the expected amount of Vengeance from the damage taken.


Yes, and they changed the expected amount from what we were experiencing (special/1.5s) to what they expected (special/60s), effectively removing spikes and drastically limiting reactive self heals.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
10/22/2012 04:31 PMPosted by Nightbus
Yes, and they changed the expected amount from what we were experiencing (special/1.5s) to what they expected (special/60s), effectively removing spikes and drastically limiting reactive self heals.

If it turns out to be a problem, it will get fixed.
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