Blizzard's stance on ninja looting

90 Pandaren Monk
6030
Just wanted to set the record straight for those who aren't quite aware of it.

[url="https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/ninja-looting-blizzard-s-stance"]Ninja Looting: Blizzard's Stance[/url]

Have a nice day. :)


What can and should be discussed, and something we've been discussing a bit more internally, is the loot rules themselves to potentially prevent the issue in the first place. Clearly the current dungeon loot rules are fairly lax to allow for people to gear up in different ways. We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid. We want to allow them to run dungeons over and over to make up for bad luck in their drops. Just with those two things combined there will be people in your groups rolling on items you believe to be better for you.

One side issue that's made this all seem much worse is that with the launch of Mists a lot of items were tagged incorrectly, leading to people being able to roll on items they just have no business being able to roll on regardless of specs available to them. That makes the system just seem broken, when it's only a couple items that are essentially 'bugged'. We of course want to get to those bugs as quickly as possible.

There are clear benefits to allowing people to roll on off-spec items, or run dungeons over and over to try to get an item (or even just because they enjoy dungeons!). There are also clear issues it can cause when the factor of who 'deserves an item more' comes into it. Being matched with strangers you can never truly know someone else's intentions, and conclusions are easy to jump to. The converse though, where you can only roll on your current spec, is a system where you're locked into gearing up a specific way, and discourages (or maybe completely blocks) changing roles or even gearing up an off-spec - even if no one else wants an item.


If you do change it (to something similar to LFR), I think it would be interesting to see something where you can choose to run as a tank, but select an "off-spec loot gear" option to receive DPS gear through the run. This would encourage geared tanks (or healers) to continue running as their primary spec to gear up their off-specs. Obviously primary spec gear would not drop as well - it would be one or the other.
Edited by Twoplusone on 10/17/2012 5:37 PM PDT
Community Manager
Good to have this clarified more. The old community's honor system of not rolling on off spec is something we're supposed to move past then.

As I'm from the old days, I am uncomfortable with this policy. It still seems very selfish to a lot of people who leveled in that old environment, so this is going to take getting used to.


Personally it's something I uphold in my own play. I'm running dungeons how I want to run them, in the spec I want to run them, and rolling on items I want for my current spec. If not I call it out in chat and ask if anyone minds that I roll. But that's how I play, and I don't impose that on how other people choose to play as they exist within the confines of the game rules.

I don't rely on the kindness of strangers, and I certainly can't justify getting mad when they aren't nice. Although that doesn't stop me asking rhetorical questions of my monitor from time to time. :)
Edited by Bashiok on 10/17/2012 5:33 PM PDT
90 Orc Hunter
7790
The old community's honor system of not rolling on off spec is something we're supposed to move past then.
only if you plan on playing with random players via the LFD because you can not assume random players want to use your personal loot rules

if you play with "your friends/guildmates/family/other players who agree with you" via forming your own groups, you can use any loot system you all agree upon.

Bash was quite clear about this
Edited by Zaxan on 10/17/2012 5:32 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
15585
Having lost plenty of 2Hs to tanks in Cata, I've been a longtime memeber of the I'm Hitting Need If I Have Any Interest At All Club. Losing the STR trinket to a rogue in Scholo was a bad one though but it's easier to take when you accept and embrace it.
90 Human Warrior
13880
I certainly Hope that LFR version of Loot Distribution will not apply to LFD in the future. I like to obtain some plate that has Int or Spirit on them that I want to get for Transmog.
90 Troll Rogue
16255
10/17/2012 05:31 PMPosted by Polyphemus
Having lost plenty of 2Hs to tanks in Cata, I've been a longtime memeber of the I'm Hitting Need If I Have Any Interest At All Club. Losing the STR trinket to a rogue in Scholo was a bad one though but it's easier to take when you accept and embrace it.


that was buggy looting, i was in scholo and was unable to need on the agi trinker, luckily the tank druid asked me if i wanted it, and needed for me. lots of good players in wow, just don't get discouraged by all the Richards in the game.
90 Orc Hunter
7790
10/17/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Liamaru
I certainly Hope that LFR version of Loot Distribution will not apply to LFD in the future. I like to obtain some plate that has Int or Spirit on them that I want to get for Transmog.
form your own groups and you can get any gear you want for mogging
90 Night Elf Warrior
0
Good to have this clarified more. The old community's honor system of not rolling on off spec is something we're supposed to move past then.

As I'm from the old days, I am uncomfortable with this policy. It still seems very selfish to a lot of people who leveled in that old environment, so this is going to take getting used to.


Personally it's something I uphold in my own play. I'm running dungeons how I want to run them, in the spec I want to run them, and rolling on items I want for my current spec. If not I call it out in chat and ask if anyone minds that I roll. But that's how I play, and I don't impose that on how other people choose to play as they exist within the confines of the game rules.

I don't rely on the kindness of strangers, and I certainly can't justify getting mad when they aren't nice. Although that doesn't stop be from asking rhetorical questions of my monitor. :)


Typically that's how I've approached it as well, but I've been trying to explain to people lately why there are players who feel their rolling on off spec is a bad thing.

Personally, I make it a standard point to ask people how they feel about this before every 5 man I run, as a lot of confusion seems to stem from people not doing that and assuming everyone else agrees with their personal ethical stance.

I will probably continue to uphold this in my own playstyle as well, it just feels like the better thing to do to me.
90 Pandaren Monk
6030
10/17/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Liamaru
I certainly Hope that LFR version of Loot Distribution will not apply to LFD in the future. I like to obtain some plate that has Int or Spirit on them that I want to get for Transmog.


I don't think this hypothetical LFR version of loot in LFD would apply to dungeons you joined outside of the tool - similar to raids.
90 Night Elf Warrior
0
[quote]

Bash was quite clear about this


Indeed, and I was offering commentary, not asking a question.
90 Human Warrior
13880
I certainly Hope that LFR version of Loot Distribution will not apply to LFD in the future. I like to obtain some plate that has Int or Spirit on them that I want to get for Transmog.
form your own groups and you can get any gear you want for mogging


Ahh, A way around it, Im not that Frightened anymore...Im such a mogoholoic XD

Thank you
Edited by Liamaru on 10/17/2012 5:37 PM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
11205


Thanks! I was getting ready to link that in that other thread, but it capped before I could.

I think it's important to note that our support policies match what's reasonably enforceable, and this really can't be a conversation about our support team making the right or wrong decisions, or helping or not helping. It's unreasonable for them to act as arbiters for every piece of loot that drops in every dungeon for every player. I hope that's something we can all agree with.

What can and should be discussed, and something we've been discussing a bit more internally, is the loot rules themselves to potentially prevent the issue in the first place. Clearly the current dungeon loot rules are fairly lax to allow for people to gear up in different ways. We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid. We want to allow them to run dungeons over and over to make up for bad luck in their drops. Just with those two things combined there will be people in your groups rolling on items you believe to be better for you.

One side issue that's made this all seem much worse is that with the launch of Mists a lot of items were tagged incorrectly, leading to people being able to roll on items they just have no business being able to roll on regardless of specs available to them. That makes the system just seem broken, when it's only a couple items that are essentially 'bugged'. We of course want to get to those bugs as quickly as possible.

There are clear benefits to allowing people to roll on off-spec items, or run dungeons over and over to try to get an item (or even just because they enjoy dungeons!). There are also clear issues it can cause when the factor of who 'deserves an item more' comes into it. Being matched with strangers you can never truly know someone else's intentions, and conclusions are easy to jump to. The converse though, where you can only roll on your current spec, is a system where you're locked into gearing up a specific way, and discourages (or maybe completely blocks) changing roles or even gearing up an off-spec - even if no one else wants an item.

There are many considerations to be made, but the discussion of LFD vs LFR loot systems is a larger one than even just this issue, and the devs seem intent on discussing it more and more as this expansion rolls on.

Until then, if you want to ensure you get the drop you want, I really recommend forming a group with trusted friends and guild mates if at all possible. Plus you can talk trash on them the whole time, which makes everything with friends more fun! ;)


Just a heads up for the bugs / incorrectly flagged stuff you mentioned, bashiok.
I think there is a mail item in scholomance mages can roll need on, last time i done scholo i saw that and chuckled, but didnt think too much of it at the time
EDIT: The shivbreakers vest was the peice i was thinking of


Yeah, there's a number that aren't really ambiguous that are able to be rolled on by classes that have no reason to be able to roll need on them. The shield I mentioned earlier that the Shaman rolled on beat me out on it and immediately left the group. There was no possible stats on that shield that benefit a shaman and he did so just to grief me.
90 Human Paladin
8930
I think one issue with the current Need before Greed roll system is also that, I am currently running dungeons as DPS, hoping that Tanking gear will drop so I can go back to my main spec. I don't take loot if the Tank needs it, but I also can't greed on it because if there is an enchanter in the group and I hit greed, everyone else hits DE, I have a 20% chance of winning the item, and an 80% chance of watching it get melted because the system has a flaw and cannot determine whether I am greeding to use the item or to try and sell it for gold.
90 Orc Hunter
7790
10/17/2012 05:34 PMPosted by Elrith
there are players who feel their rolling on off spec is a bad thing.
and there are players who feel that rolling NEED on gear they are going to use that is an upgrade for their class is not a bad thing

if you are going to play with random players, you have to accept it when random players simply do not feel the same way as you about loot

you have the option to form your own groups with players who feel exactly the same as you do about loot and you have the option to join groups with random players who might not feel exactly the same as you do about loot

use the option that you feel you will enjoy the most
Edited by Zaxan on 10/17/2012 5:42 PM PDT
Community Manager
Typically that's how I've approached it as well, but I've been trying to explain to people lately why there are players who feel their rolling on off spec is a bad thing.

Personally, I make it a standard point to ask people how they feel about this before every 5 man I run, as a lot of confusion seems to stem from people not doing that and assuming everyone else agrees with their personal ethical stance.

I will probably continue to uphold this in my own playstyle as well, it just feels like the better thing to do to me.


I think that's a great point. So much can be resolved before it happens by just communicating first. Make your intentions known. Find out other people's intentions. Dungeons are pretty quick and the pressure to just gogogo is strong, but it's a great idea to just take some time and talk for even a few seconds.
Edited by Bashiok on 10/17/2012 5:44 PM PDT
90 Orc Hunter
7790
10/17/2012 05:44 PMPosted by Bashiok
Make your intentions known.
I do by joining an LFD group that is using the loot system i prefer to use...if i wanted to use a different loot system i would have formed my own group with players who also wanted to use a different loot system...
Community Manager
10/17/2012 05:46 PMPosted by Zaxan
Make your intentions known.
I do by joining an LFD group that is using the loot system i prefer to use...if i wanted to use a different loot system i would have formed my own group with players who also wanted to use a different loot system...


It's weird you just said this one post ago but don't seem to apply it to yourself? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

if you are going to play with random players, you have to accept it when random players simply do not feel the same way as you about loot
1 Gnome Priest
0
Unfortunately, the path of least resistance is choosing an offspec (whenever possible) that uses the same primary stats. in that case, you have plausible deniability, since spec specific gear doesn't really exist.

If they did something to reduce drama, something that let you choose the type of gear you'd like to receive in the form of personal loot would probably be the ideal choice, but I don't really have big issues with the current system either.

If ms>os could be practically implemented in a way that didn't allow some offspecs to hit need, but not others, I wouldn't have strong opinions on it either way. The uneven nature of the lfr implementation is my only real concern. I don't think elemental shamans with an offspec of resto should have roll advantages over enhance shamans with an offspec of resto (to take one example).
90 Orc Hunter
7790

I do by joining an LFD group that is using the loot system i prefer to use...if i wanted to use a different loot system i would have formed my own group with players who also wanted to use a different loot system...


It's weird you just said this one post ago but don't seem to apply it to yourself? Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?

if you are going to play with random players, you have to accept it when random players simply do not feel the same way as you about loot
i do accept that they feel different, i dont accept that i have not made my intentions known about what loot system i prefer to use unless I speak - i made them known the moment I queued for an LFD group - if i, personally, want to use a different loot system, i would not join LFD, i would form my own groups

if other players join LFD and want to use a different looting system then the LFD offers, they are the ones who need to advertise their intentions since it differs from the LFD looting system
Edited by Zaxan on 10/17/2012 5:55 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Rogue
17060
Good to have this clarified more. The old community's honor system of not rolling on off spec is something we're supposed to move past then.

As I'm from the old days, I am uncomfortable with this policy. It still seems very selfish to a lot of people who leveled in that old environment, so this is going to take getting used to.


The old community's honor system is dead. The old community is dead.

I remember playing back in vanilla, a shaman rolled on, and won, Deathstriker (now known as Felstriker). A horde shaman. (Obviously. I did say vanilla.)

Because of Blizzard's policies at the time— including allowing forum posts about particular players— pretty soon the whole server knew about it. And while it is conceivably useful for an enhancement shaman, the community's verdict was pretty overwhelming that it really should have gone to a/the rogue, and that the shaman was in the wrong. According to warcraftrealms.com, that shaman was last seen playing in March of 2005.

This sort of thing would never happen today. With LFR, Blizzard's policies of not talking about anyone on the forums, and the general apathy brought about by these changes, it could never happen today. Whether that's a good thing is left up to the reader, but bear in mind that once upon a time, we could police ourselves; we didn't need to ask Blizzard to do it for us.
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