Blizzard's stance on ninja looting

100 Blood Elf Warlock
15730
Interesting discussion but the reality is, there are just a lot of people who are selfish or who just don't care about other players. I never need offspec stuff until I see 100% that it isn't needed by anyone as mainspec. I'm an 'old school' player and my etiquette about loot stems from the days where grouping with same-realm people was the only option.

My problem with this lame 'we don't want to get involved' stance of Blizzard's is that its a 180 from the raid loot philosophy. Basically you're (meaning Blizzard) saying... dungeon loot doesn't matter, who cares, DE it, whatever... but raid loot, oh boy, now that's where its at! We have rules and policies and etc in place!

Dungeon loot DOES matter. It is a core stepping stone to raiding, to bettering your toon, to the sense of accomplishment of downing a boss. So watching hunters need tank trinkets (and win them), healers need dps gear, dps needing healer gear, tanks needing dps gear, and even seen people need stuff to VENDOR or shard it... any loot system that allows for that is a half-assed system, whether anyone wants to admit it or not. Random groups are 100% different from friend/guild groups and accordingly, loot needs to be handled with that in mind.

Some people only have access to random dungeons because of jobs, lack of an active guild, odd playing hours, etc. Those players shouldn't be punished because they don't have 4 other people they can queue with. Dungeons need a role bonus or to simply auto-distribute loot a'la raid finder. The systems are already in game and working fine: there's no excuse to further ignore a problem that was only exacerbated by Dungeon finder.


Tell me, how many times a day can you kill a raid boss and make it drop loot?

Can you kill this same raid boss, on the same day, and then the next day, and the next day, all with the same chance for it to drop the loot you want?
Edited by Rubedo on 10/17/2012 6:34 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
Those of you wanting rolls to go my current spec in the dungeon are the greedy ones. You want to monopolize loot for yourself.

I don't care if a DPS wins a healing trinket. I don't care if I am tanking and a DPS wins a tanking shield. It is dungeon loot and if I don't win, I run again and if I am healing an upgrade drops for my DPS spec, yes, I will be rolling on it.

You all up on your pedestals saying that it is immoral or what have you are just simply ridiculous.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
10/17/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Arianenna
Those of you wanting rolls to go my current spec in the dungeon are the greedy ones. You want to monopolize loot for yourself.


By definition, it's not a monopoly, if i don't roll on healing gear, as a dps spec, even if i want it.

"MS>OS" is a standard of ettiquete that's been around a long time. Largely because of the problem you see in LFD- deciding what is a "main spec". It wasn't considered sociallly acceptable in the past, and they also had the tools to punish that behavior.

It's not being selfish (in fact, if everyone follows it, the amount of loot is actually exactly the same), that's a misconception. You'll just gear whatever role you choose faster than your "os", which is the only 'fair' way to do it, when you won't see the person ever again.

ps:

You neglected rolling need to vendor.
1 Gnome Priest
0

She/he said yes but to go on roll on it, I said no and let her win. So my intentions are good but the fact is something is wrong with the fact people can be such thieves. Not sure why it got annoying in MoP but I suppose the ninjas are out of the woodwork.

/shrug


Spirit neck isn't for healers. Granted, as a mage you get no value from spirit, but that's not true of most other dps casters. That's why I have no faith in ms>os because it basically allows some people to roll on their offspec, but denies others from doing the same, mostly due to the primary stats in use.

Conceptually, I have no problem with ms>os, but only if it's applied fairly. If it's applied in such a way that it only applies to certain spec combos, but not others, then I think that's a much less fair system than what we have now where you self select what would be an upgrade.
100 Blood Elf Warlock
15730
10/17/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Arianity
You neglected rolling need to vendor.


I'm probably the most evil player there is.

I roll need to disenchant.
100 Goblin Shaman
8740
Just wanted to set the record straight for those who aren't quite aware of it.

[url="https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/ninja-looting-blizzard-s-stance"]Ninja Looting: Blizzard's Stance[/url]

Have a nice day. :)


Thanks! I was getting ready to link that in that other thread, but it capped before I could.

I think it's important to note that our support policies match what's reasonably enforceable, and this really can't be a conversation about our support team making the right or wrong decisions, or helping or not helping. It's unreasonable for them to act as arbiters for every piece of loot that drops in every dungeon for every player. I hope that's something we can all agree with.

What can and should be discussed, and something we've been discussing a bit more internally, is the loot rules themselves to potentially prevent the issue in the first place. Clearly the current dungeon loot rules are fairly lax to allow for people to gear up in different ways. We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid. We want to allow them to run dungeons over and over to make up for bad luck in their drops. Just with those two things combined there will be people in your groups rolling on items you believe to be better for you.

One side issue that's made this all seem much worse is that with the launch of Mists a lot of items were tagged incorrectly, leading to people being able to roll on items they just have no business being able to roll on regardless of specs available to them. That makes the system just seem broken, when it's only a couple items that are essentially 'bugged'. We of course want to get to those bugs as quickly as possible.

There are clear benefits to allowing people to roll on off-spec items, or run dungeons over and over to try to get an item (or even just because they enjoy dungeons!). There are also clear issues it can cause when the factor of who 'deserves an item more' comes into it. Being matched with strangers you can never truly know someone else's intentions, and conclusions are easy to jump to. The converse though, where you can only roll on your current spec, is a system where you're locked into gearing up a specific way, and discourages (or maybe completely blocks) changing roles or even gearing up an off-spec - even if no one else wants an item.

There are many considerations to be made, but the discussion of LFD vs LFR loot systems is a larger one than even just this issue, and the devs seem intent on discussing it more and more as this expansion rolls on.

Until then, if you want to ensure you get the drop you want, I really recommend forming a group with trusted friends and guild mates if at all possible. Plus you can talk trash on them the whole time, which makes everything with friends more fun! ;)


Bash, have you not noticed it has been much, much worse this expansion (the rolling for offspec) than it has any other expac?

In my honest opion (I've been using this phrase too much lately), I partially put the blame because of the new rep grind. A lot of people are going to take the lesser of the two evils:

Which is easier:

1) spending a month grinding rep via dailies to get that piece of gear for MS/OS?

or

2) queuing up for a heroic and rolling on anything and everything you can and calling "offspec"?

Personally, I let hunters and enhance shammies know at the beginning of the run "I am not here for agility gear", but at the same time I've seen mages rolling on spirit trinkets, hunters rolling on polearms, and people rolling on offspec gear when someones clearly stated that they could use the item for their main spec.

Yes, I'm old school, however, this stuff would have never flown during BC or even early Wrath; and it definitely doesn't fly in raids- even PuG raids.

I think this behavior is honestly related to the rep system. Before this expac and always early into the expacs, people could easily get what they needed via the rep system. Now, in order to do that, we have to spend close to a month trying to get the rep for attain MS/OS gear.

By the way, it's capped out now, but I think we have the entire dailies vs heroic grinds argument covered:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en-us/forum/topic/6893720055
Edited by Jujubiju on 10/17/2012 6:39 PM PDT
1 Gnome Priest
0
10/17/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Arianity
Those of you wanting rolls to go my current spec in the dungeon are the greedy ones. You want to monopolize loot for yourself.


By definition, it's not a monopoly, if i don't roll on healing gear, as a dps spec, even if i want it.


Can you point out to me healing gear that's not a trinket? It just doesn't exist.
58 Gnome Death Knight
0
Thank *insert deity here*, now I get to watch people twist and re-interpret the Blues words to fit their agenda.

Remember folks, the blue said, talk to each other, but as long as everyone is playing within the loot settings, there is no need to get angry because you lost a loot role allowed by that setting.

Read the loot settings and understand them. With understanding come calmness (or at least the realization that, yes, it's within the rules, quit trying to make up rules that only make you feel better and only benefit you, to the detriment of others).

And for the love of *insert another deity here, maybe the same as the first deity, but he didn't (she?) listen to you anyways, so might as well try another one if you got one* please report all the items that were incorrectly tagged so Blizzard can fix this issue.


I have seen more than a few times, someone yell roll need only on MS when someone asks...but it all changed when the roll benefit's them and they roll "need" on an item for OS. Because of this, i pretty much just roll need if its an improvement reguardless if its for MS or OS.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
10/17/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Arianity
"MS>OS" is a standard of ettiquete that's been around a long time.

Yes for the 5 years when dual spec wasn't an option and you didn't have people literally playing two specs equally. Nor was there a LFD where tanks are at a premium and if you could only get gear as the spec you are in the pool of tanks would fall again.
90 Night Elf Warrior
10340
One side issue that's made this all seem much worse is that with the launch of Mists a lot of items were tagged incorrectly, leading to people being able to roll on items they just have no business being able to roll on regardless of specs available to them. That makes the system just seem broken, when it's only a couple items that are essentially 'bugged'. We of course want to get to those bugs as quickly as possible.


I'm very happy that you're working on it. It makes no sense for me to be able to need on int items as a warrior. I hope you consider restricting agi and str based items by class. There's no reason for me to want to use an agi trinket or for a bear tank to use a str/parry cloak. I like the class-based roll system that's currently in LFD with that one small caveat.

What can and should be discussed, and something we've been discussing a bit more internally, is the loot rules themselves to potentially prevent the issue in the first place. Clearly the current dungeon loot rules are fairly lax to allow for people to gear up in different ways. We (at least currently) want people to be able to gear up to tank by DPSing, or being able to help out others by healing when they really just want to DPS in their weekly raid. We want to allow them to run dungeons over and over to make up for bad luck in their drops. Just with those two things combined there will be people in your groups rolling on items you believe to be better for you.

<snip>

There are clear benefits to allowing people to roll on off-spec items, or run dungeons over and over to try to get an item (or even just because they enjoy dungeons!). There are also clear issues it can cause when the factor of who 'deserves an item more' comes into it. Being matched with strangers you can never truly know someone else's intentions, and conclusions are easy to jump to. The converse though, where you can only roll on your current spec, is a system where you're locked into gearing up a specific way, and discourages (or maybe completely blocks) changing roles or even gearing up an off-spec - even if no one else wants an item.


I'm very happy you recognize the benefits of allowing rolls on offspec items. That was one of the biggest issues with the 4.3 LFR loot roll system - people who already had better versions of the item rolling need anyways and preventing those that could legitimitely use it for their other spec from having a chance to win the item. I don't use the terms main spec or offspec because the spec they are currently queued as could very well be different from the role they perform in raids. You just don't have enough information about that random stranger to judge.
100 Goblin Shaman
8740
Tell me, how many times a day can you kill a raid boss and make it drop loot?

Can you kill this same raid boss, on the same day, and then the next day, and the next day, all with the same chance for it to drop the loot you want?


Here's the kicker though: say I queue SPECIFICALLY for a heroic. I get locked out from doing that heroic that day again if say that piece doesn't drop or someone else rolls on it- completely wasting my time.

I'm not saying I should be automatically guaranteed that piece- I'm just saying your argument would be valid if I could specifically queue for the heroic more than once a day.
Edited by Jujubiju on 10/17/2012 6:45 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
"MS>OS" is a standard of ettiquete that's been around a long time.

Yes for the 5 years when dual spec wasn't an option and you didn't have people literally playing two specs equally. Nor was there a LFD where tanks are at a premium and if you could only get gear as the spec you are in the pool of tanks would fall again.


I already suggested just doing LFR-style loot, it pretty much fixes every problem if implemented correctly.

10/17/2012 06:39 PMPosted by Mescyn
Can you point out to me healing gear that's not a trinket? It just doesn't exist.


I just used healing/dps as an example. You can replace it with Tank/dps , etc, it's just an example.

Spirit neck isn't for healers. Granted, as a mage you get no value from spirit, but that's not true of most other dps casters. That's why I have no faith in ms>os because it basically allows some people to roll on their offspec, but denies others from doing the same, mostly due to the primary stats in use.

Conceptually, I have no problem with ms>os, but only if it's applied fairly. If it's applied in such a way that it only applies to certain spec combos, but not others, then I think that's a much less fair system than what we have now where you self select what would be an upgrade.


Yeah, i think essentially this is the biggest reason loot has to be personal (that and dual spec). In the past, loot for each role (heal/tank/mdps/ranged dps) was much more defined. With spirit being cross, personal loot is probably better.

You could also just let say, spriests role on spirit neck, but not the 'dps' (crit/haste/mastery) necks, but i think personal loot is better.

Trying to define individual rules, for say a boomy/resto, vs a blood/dps dk, etc, is too messy.

I don't think rolling against other people is really "fun", anyway, so i don't think anything would be lost. And (ideally) most of the work was already done with the LFR system, so we could just steal most of it.

edit:

If anything, honestly, personal loot would add more tanks. There are more than a few people who get really frustrated when someone else needs on everything, and do it to "get back" to random strangers. And it spreads.

There's only really 2 'downsides' to LFR-style loot:

people get mad at the computer with bad RNG.

the people who take advantage of 'ms>os'(not the ones who actually like the LFD system, but who purposely wait, need after others greed, to increase their personal odds) to gain an aritificial advantage. (or who need to vendor/de). But who cares? They're abusing the system anyway.
Edited by Arianity on 10/17/2012 6:48 PM PDT
1 Gnome Priest
0

I'm very happy that you're working on it. It makes no sense for me to be able to need on int items as a warrior. I hope you consider restricting agi and str based items by class. There's no reason for me to want to use an agi trinket or for a bear tank to use a str/parry cloak. I like the class-based roll system that's currently in LFD with that one small caveat.


While I have no problem with the current system, I also don't mind tightening up the restrictions. The gear you can need on should be generally preferred for your class. This means if you can hit need on a strength item, one of your classes specs should use strength as a primary stat (merely not being a completely wasted stat should not be enough). Same goes for stats like spirit, if you get no value from it (mages/locks) then you shouldn't be able to need on it.

It's not something I lose sleep over, but I'd certainly like to see improvements in this area. It seems like it's largely unchanged since 3.3 when it was introduced; at the time, agi was actually better for str users than str was in a lot of circumstances, and ferals only lost some dodge and some crit for using strength instead of agility.

need before greed class based restrictions could use some modernization, I think most would agree with that.
100 Blood Elf Warlock
15730
Tell me, how many times a day can you kill a raid boss and make it drop loot?

Can you kill this same raid boss, on the same day, and then the next day, and the next day, all with the same chance for it to drop the loot you want?


Here's the kicker though: say I queue SPECIFICALLY for a heroic. I get locked out from doing that heroic directly if say that piece doesn't drop or someone else rolls on it- completely wasting my time.

I'm not saying I should be automatically guaranteed that piece- I'm just saying your argument would be valid if I could specifically queue for the heroic more than once a day.


Your argument only works if there is no other way to enter that instance over and over again, in the same day.

And, I'd love to see your face when you finally realize that wow is a complete waste of time.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
10/17/2012 06:44 PMPosted by Arianity
I already suggested just doing LFR-style loot, it pretty much fixes every problem if implemented correctly.

LFR gives you loot via your spec. If a tank wants to get DPS gear, they will need to queue as a DPS and once again taking more tanks out of the LFD pool.
100 Goblin Shaman
8740
10/17/2012 06:45 PMPosted by Mescyn
merely not being a completely wasted stat should not be enough). Same goes for stats like spirit, if you get no value from it (mages/locks) then you shouldn't be able to need on it.


My old man almost got smacked in the head the last time he rolled on a spirit item on his mage ;).
1 Gnome Priest
0

I just used healing/dps as an example. You can replace it with Tank/dps , etc, it's just an example.


My point is that role specific gear is very rare.

For example, we have 2 leather tanks. There is no non-spec specific leather tanking gear in the game. Monks and druids tank with dps gear. This is less true of plate tanks, but it's more true than you think.

Healer gear is basically a fantasy which doesn't exist in the real world, and dps caster gear is limited to gear with hit on it.

The itemization is such that ms>os just doesn't work in any sort of fair way because of massive overlap.
90 Human Mage
10895
IMO all LOOT ( for heroics and up ) should be handled like LFR I love that system, if you get something or win something rather, it will be for your spec and role. If you want to gear up as Prot then farm regulars and then proceed to heroics and so on. Most people won't like this idea because they just want gear thrown at them but I think it would help people understand fights better and roles on how each one is handled within the fight itself! but whatever makes sense prolly won't happen sadly. This is just my 2 cents.... IF THIS DID HAPPEN at least people wouldn't be so quick to say: healer SUX BAD! or THE TANK IS A BADDIE and they themselves know nothing about the role or what the tank or healer or DPS is even going through.
100 Blood Elf Priest
18535
It would be fairest (and toughest for Blizzard maybe) to make even 5-man loot roll like LFR. Except IF you win your personal loot, there'll be a choice of items and you can pick one for the spec you're in or the one you want to be in. Or you get a chit to turnin.

Have an NPC by the entrance to exchange the chit into a choice of gear that would've dropped on that boss fight. He can look like the little grummies(sp) with the Giant backpack who sells the green/blue BoP gear outside.

Fairest and least amount of QQ on the forums over lolgearz. Cuz we all love the new loot rolls (I see in guild chat everyday someone exclaiming so - well, when we actually win stuff like I did!!)

e: Mage above me and I had the Same-Same thought and posted at the same time. He may be my soulmate (even tho I'm already married) or this idea is mystically linked and shared by enough players so Blizzard should implement it as soon as possible.
Edited by Vixie on 10/17/2012 6:53 PM PDT
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