Death Knights Need Buffs.

90 Human Death Knight
9740
It's not hard to understand that dk mechanics are outdated right now, just compare some of our abilities to other classes and amount of cc they got in mop and maybe you get the picture.

Direct quote from Anotherx, winner of the European World of Warcraft Invitational 2012.

Our resource system cannot keep up with the current state of the game, our main damage ability requires 2 runes, which is all fine and dandy for pve, but once you have to use a rune outside of "pve rotation" it causes hassles and leaves you sitting on unholy runes with no worth while means of getting rid of them.

Necrotic Strike costing a death rune - It's currently not worth using necrotic strike other than the debuff and even then it's debatable. The absorb it puts on is so minuscule the riptide, rejuv, holy shock etc. will have removed it before you can use another ability. Obliterate will be 99% of the time the better choice to use in conjunction with a death rune.

Dk's are by far the easiest melee to shut down. Warriors charge every 12s and have a 3minute cd making them immune to movement impairing effects, feral's can shift all snares and roots while moving at an increased speed and ret's have the ability to dispel themselves, again while moving at an increased speed.
However when it comes to dk's we have deathgrip every 25seconds, which by most classes by the time they land give it 1 or 2 seconds they're out of range already. As frost we're forced to play in frost presence making us the slowest moving melee, frost presence needs to give the same movement speed bonus as unholy presence and death's advance needs to go back to being baseline, the current tier death's advance is in it's an impossible choice to pick it.

DK's have no utility, we have no cc at all, in the current state of mop every other class has 10 of them. Warriors aoe fear 1min cd and a 20second aoe stun, Ferals every 5cp's instant cyclone or root. Ret's can get a 30s cd stun, and the most stupid of all abilities Blinding Light. Yes lets remove hungering cold because an instant aoe unavoidable cc is much too overpowered. Then turn around give the ability a new name and give it to ret's, good joke!

What do dk's have in the way of cc? The only choice is Remorseless winter, which is a stun that takes 5 seconds to actually stun, if it was instant and aoe sure it would be amazing. However in it's current state every class can counter it, druids can shift out of the snare, freedom completely negates it, other dk's can ams it and the list goes on.

Then onto our silence. Strangulate is the worst silence in the game. It's on gcd, no other silence is, it's a 2min cd the longest of all silences, and it costs a blood rune. With the removal of blood tap, it's pathetic, you have to either be lucky enough that when the situation to strang arises you happen to have a death rune, or you have to sit on your rune twiddling your thumbs.

TLDR -
We need death's advance basline.
Revert necrotic back to 1 unholy rune, remove the casting speed debuff.
Make Strang 1min cd, off gcd and no rune cost.
Put hungering cold back in the game on a 2minute cd, it's no different to blinding light, or make remorseless winter instant.
Best of All buff unholy so we don't have to play frost.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
We need death's advance basline.
Revert necrotic back to 1 unholy rune, remove the casting speed debuff. 1.
Make Strang 1min cd, off gcd and no rune cost. 2.
Put hungering cold back in the game on a 2minute cd, it's no different to blinding light, or make remorseless winter instant. 3.
Best of All buff unholy so we don't have to play frost.


1. Camembert
2. Brie
3. Limburger

Cheese all day, baby.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10095
There is nothing wrong with unholy. I agree with everything else though. At the very least, make us less susceptible to burst ffs. It's pretty silly that mages/hunters/warriors can burst me 100-0 through icebound/petsac without bothering to CC my healer.

Also to your first point, I too have sort of come to the realization that while 2h Frost might be theoretically better from a burst damage perspective, it really lacks any flexibility. The second I devote resources to CoI or Icy Touch or Soul Reaper, my pressure absolutely plummets. I'm left with orphan unholy runes or KM frost strikes, which hit for next to nothing.

Obliterate is amazing, yes, but its too amazing. It's so good that everything else is painful to devote resources to, and that is really boring design. Even if I was successful this season as 2h Frost, it would be a metric of, primarily, my ability to hit obliterate over and over again. Not fun.

Might go dw for the rune flexibility, but it really won't matter all that much if I'm dying in quite literally the blink of an eye.

And yeah, I pretty much popped a blood vessel when I saw Blinding Light. !@#$%^- retards, honestly.
Edited by Venvicta on 10/24/2012 10:59 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
9805
While we have good damage, we are lacking in CC and mobility. Also our execute is almost worthless. I would love to see a buff for it somewhat. Maybe making the time it takes to do damage lower.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6415
10/24/2012 10:50 PMPosted by Venvicta
There is nothing wrong with unholy. I agree with everything else though. At the very least, make us less susceptible to burst ffs. It's pretty silly that mages/hunters/warriors can burst me 100-0 through icebound/petsac without bothering to CC my healer.


Everyone else has this problem too - it lies with the simple fact burst from those three classes is beyond a sick joke.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10095
10/24/2012 10:53 PMPosted by Doombox
While we have good damage, we are lacking in CC and mobility. Also our execute is almost worthless. I would love to see a buff for it somewhat. Maybe making the time it takes to do damage lower.


I think getting Soul Reaper buffed is an extremely dangerous venture. It would mean a readjustment (read:lowering) of all our pre-35% damage for the dragonslaying crowd, which would in turn adversely affect 98% of the damage we would do in pvp. It's good that soul reaper is bleh.
90 Human Death Knight
9805
10/24/2012 10:55 PMPosted by Venvicta
While we have good damage, we are lacking in CC and mobility. Also our execute is almost worthless. I would love to see a buff for it somewhat. Maybe making the time it takes to do damage lower.


I think getting Soul Reaper buffed is an extremely dangerous venture. It would mean a readjustment (read:lowering) of all our pre-35% damage for the dragonslaying crowd, which would in turn adversely affect 98% of the damage we would do in pvp. It's good that soul reaper is bleh.


But I was so excited for an execute D:
31 Blood Elf Monk
320
I agree with some of this. Dk's over all are lackluster when put next to other classes who bring utility to the table in the form of CC, off heals or both (Spriest, rep pallys).

Frost Dk damage is good if they can sit on you. They have great sustained damage as well as good burst. That being said with no CC, the worst silences in the game,being easy to kill and easy to peel...Dks aren't in the best spot right now.
90 Human Death Knight
9740
10/24/2012 10:55 PMPosted by Venvicta
While we have good damage, we are lacking in CC and mobility. Also our execute is almost worthless. I would love to see a buff for it somewhat. Maybe making the time it takes to do damage lower.


I think getting Soul Reaper buffed is an extremely dangerous venture. It would mean a readjustment (read:lowering) of all our pre-35% damage for the dragonslaying crowd, which would in turn adversely affect 98% of the damage we would do in pvp. It's good that soul reaper is bleh.


If you didn't know Soul Reaper is resetting our swing timer atm and needs to be fixed.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10095
10/24/2012 10:59 PMPosted by Doombox


I think getting Soul Reaper buffed is an extremely dangerous venture. It would mean a readjustment (read:lowering) of all our pre-35% damage for the dragonslaying crowd, which would in turn adversely affect 98% of the damage we would do in pvp. It's good that soul reaper is bleh.


But I was so excited for an execute D:


Too gimmicky to be excited. Much like most of our abilities.
90 Orc Death Knight
8515


TLDR -
We need death's advance basline.
Revert necrotic back to 1 unholy rune, remove the casting speed debuff.
Make Strang 1min cd, off gcd and no rune cost.
Put hungering cold back in the game on a 2minute cd, it's no different to blinding light, or make remorseless winter instant.
Best of All buff unholy so we don't have to play frost.


Death's Advance isn't that good to begin with, so I don't care.

Seems fair to me.

Strang is fine the way it is.

Remorseless Winter needs to be either instant, or should not be instant cleansed if a Druid
shapeshifts, or a pally freedoms themself.

Unholy needs to have Magic Suppression and Improved Death Coil. Aside from the pet, it was the only thing that seperated Unholy from Frost defensive wise.

Many will say Death Knights are the most balance class right now, and everything else is just overpowered. I highly doubt every class is overpowered and Death Knights are just "balanced". A right word to use would be gimped, or underpowered.

The other argument is that Frost does too much damage... Fine, nerf our damage, but give us survivability, because the current glass cannon Death Knights are absolutely unbearable to play.

Soul Reaper should function as any other Execute would and only be useable at 35% or lower. Because right now, Obliterating is the better option, especially when KM is up, instead of applying Soul Reaper and praying your target is below 35% when it proc.s
Edited by Saricc on 10/24/2012 11:10 PM PDT
31 Blood Elf Monk
320
10/24/2012 10:55 PMPosted by Venvicta
While we have good damage, we are lacking in CC and mobility. Also our execute is almost worthless. I would love to see a buff for it somewhat. Maybe making the time it takes to do damage lower.


I think getting Soul Reaper buffed is an extremely dangerous venture. It would mean a readjustment (read:lowering) of all our pre-35% damage for the dragonslaying crowd, which would in turn adversely affect 98% of the damage we would do in pvp. It's good that soul reaper is bleh.


Personally, I would rather they get rid of soul reaper, spread the damage out or even give us a flat % increase past 35% to obliterate or frost strike and give us a CC or really anything else as our as our level 87 ability.

In pvp it's next to useless. In pve it's annoying at best to fit into your rotation. I don't think anyone would miss it at all. It's not like we're made stronger by having it in pve when our dps is funneled through it anyway.

If anything all soul reaper did was nerf our qol in pve and it didn't do crap for us in pvp.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10095
Yeah, Soul Reaper is !@#$ing awful in every aspect of this game. I think the point of it was to make execute range more interesting for the dragonslayers, but even then its more obnoxious than anything.
31 Blood Elf Monk
320
10/24/2012 11:13 PMPosted by Venvicta
Yeah, Soul Reaper is !@#$ing awful in every aspect of this game. I think the point of it was to make execute range more interesting for the dragonslayers, but even then its more obnoxious than anything.


What upsets me most about it is that it was our level 87 ability!
I mean most classes got something cool, we got something annoying.

Our level 90 talents are lame.
AoE dg? Situationally helpful in pve as a tank...I guess...
The trinket- Good for pvp, but not really exciting.
AoE Slow/Stun - Once again, situationally useful in pvp and pve.

Also NS is useless now for frost. I never use it for pvp. Pretty much the cast time debuff is all it's good for and most classes can self heal it right off even if they're not a healer.

Healers don't cast anymore, and the rare times that they do you can't keep it up on them anyway, so once again, useless.

Soul reaper. Pretty much a waste of a obliterate. The ONLY time I feel like I use it is on tanky warriors who sit in defensive stance with 2nd wind.
Edited by Bellathissa on 10/24/2012 11:22 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10095
[quote="69333525521"]
Soul reaper. Pretty much a waste of a obliterate.


That's what I find so obnoxious about 2h frost right now. I feel myself quantifying everything utility related with, "well, just wasted an obliterate". I suppose that there should be some pain in allocating resources to snare or to purge, but it feels onerous.

DW just seems so much more attractive in its flexibility. I can spam purge/chains without gutting my offensive pressure (beyond losing MotFW ofc). Sure I'd miss monster oblits, but I'd feel like I was contributing in a manner that went beyond BIG NUMBER.
90 Undead Death Knight
5950
i can't see a reason for any team to bring a DK...why even bother when other classes have 5x the CC and utility

also DW seems interesting..sadly i already bought my 2h wep so i'm stuck with this for a while
Edited by Dranochugger on 10/24/2012 11:33 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
0
i have to agree... i play a frost DK, and even sitting at almost 40% pvp power with a t1 weap i can’t even put a dent on a good holy paladin, even BAD paladins get to jump around thinking they are good.

Now, don’t get me wrong i played a hpal for a long time and i advocated for the idea that a single DPSis not supposed to kill a healer and i stand behind that idea. a frost DK can have a really hard time killing a shaman, priest or druid, and in most cases if the healer is good, we just can’t kill it. But we put enough pressure that they have to focus 100% on staying alive. Now, against a hpal they don’t even notice! open with diseases, obliterate, necrotic, obliterate, tap tap, necrotic x3, and when you switch to frost striking the necrotic strike debuff faded and they are back to 100%.
No effort at all!
You can’t even break their damn shield since they pop their -40% magical damage wall and you are sitting there ticking them with frost strikes just to see what runes you get… if you get any.
The only way to put "some" pressure is to do empower rune weap... and redo the cycle immediately. But that has a 5 minute cD and we are lucky if by now they are at 50%... after that we are done. Silence? heh, right. He can actually trink the silence since there’s nothing we can do besides it. NOTHING.
the next burst cycle will happen in FIVE minutes anyway, so what do they care? there’s nothing we can do!, go ahead men, trink that silence, that is if it doesn’t get dispelled.

the only way to keep a reliable snare outside of HoF is to use the most stupid Glyph ever to keep the paladins from mindlessly dispelling the diseases (-30% less damge... as if taking a glyph slot isn’t enough of a drawback.) oh and yeah, a dk can keep a target perma snared with chains... but damage goes to zero. so please, dont make that suggestion. and grip? grip the often the only thing we have to keep a warrior or any other REAL dps from one shotting our healer in arenas, and its not like its actually a peel like it used to... i gives the healer ONE global to heal himself before the warrior charges back, leaps back, interves the banner back, of just frigging runs back with HoF on.

Necrotic strike is a joke, one necrotic strike hits for nothing and places a debuff that the paladin can negate with a holy shock, it costs me 8 seconds to get that rune back ffs. One 3hp WoG negates 4x necrotics... and they can do two back to back with the 4p bonus.

Necrotic strike needs a buff, not 5%, not 10%, at least double or triple the effectiveness.

i played a pala the whole second season in cata and hearing the SFX of necrotic being done on you would INMEDIATLY force you to change your playstile and try to keep it from stacking, hell on RBGs, there were two things to look for, priests mana burning and Dks stacking necrotic. Now i feel like I’m tickling the paladin with it.
25% less casting speed of an instant is…. Let me go get my calculator.
90 Orc Death Knight
5895
I think we'd be in a good place if they brought Dark Succor back to pre-nerf levels.
Edited by Kilmore on 10/25/2012 1:08 AM PDT
85 Draenei Shaman
5405
killed a dk 100-0 through AMS and ironbark instantly as a mage earlier

maybe you should start there
90 Human Death Knight
9740
10/25/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Kilmore
I think we'd be in a good place if they brought Dark Succor back to pre-nerf levels.


That was actually really dumb though.
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