Guilds.... rebuilding the system

90 Troll Priest
13220
@Sleighter.

If you knew nothing about the game and found it odd that you could set up a guild, why did you in the first place?
Though I must admit back when I first started me and my brother did set up a guild, ahh it was awesome.. basically everyone was a nub we had little to no knowledge about anything. But at least we were insulted daily lol

As for why they invited you, if they were under 25 you could give them just as much guild exp as a lvl 90 doing their dailies. For lower guilds its sometimes easier to get lower levels.
Sure for high ones it is kind of pointless. I wouldnt turn away a lowbie just cause they wouldnt help, most lowbies have mains somewhere. Be nice to them, they bring over their mains, which has happened to me a few times.

For 1k members. Im two sides on this one. Alot of the guilds I have been in, have around 75% of them inactive, so far inactive they havnt logged in, in about 3months plus. Some even keep members that havnt logged on in a year. Not an officer alt or something, the lowest rank.

But on the same hold my mate told me he was once in a very active guild where it had 4k members. Was the biggest on his server. He always loved it, was always clearly groups going through everything. Which I still see a few guilds now that have close to 700 active members.

Ahh guild hoppers, that has always been a fact within this guild. They used to go raid with one, that guild would get stuck then they jump to a "better" one. Try losing 3-4 people of your raid group. But thats a fact of life, if people wanna leave a lvl 2 guild to join a lvl 25 guild, how much do you really want them in the first place? I wouldnt invite anyone that says in trade "LF a lvl 25 guild". I dont mind getting used for perks, but not to that level.

As for you "claiming" you know alot about the game, no offence but that is laughable. There are so many random questions that people can ask, I know I dont know all of them, having played every class does help with alot of them though. If you think that you learnt it all within 2 months of playing.. well you got alot to learn.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10335
Sleighter, I do think you've identified some problems with guilds and guild recruitment. I just honestly don't think your solutions to these problems are really viable, for various reasons. I've never seen what I consider viable solutions to those problems, and it's no use implementing a solution that will create other problems.

I did not mean to attack you or your ideas at all. You should continue thinking, and developing ideas, and posting. I'll try to be a bit more gentle when I disagree.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Shaman
10335
10/19/2012 04:25 AMPosted by Scyllaìr
For 1k members. Im two sides on this one. Alot of the guilds I have been in, have around 75% of them inactive, so far inactive they havnt logged in, in about 3months plus. Some even keep members that havnt logged on in a year. Not an officer alt or something, the lowest rank.


I have some great guildies that have gone afk for months at a time....some of the reasons include: house burnt down, computer died and couldn't afford a new one right away, relative/partner had serious health issues and needed attention, school, long trips to faraway places, military deployment, and more. Real life does kick in sometimes, and especially so when you have people with full lives. And people with full lives are danged interesting to have in guild; when they come back, they enliven gchat. If someone has been a good guildie and I have reason to think they'll be back, I will hold a spot in the guild for them, at least keep a main in, so they still have their guild home when they come back.

I didn't do that at first, I used to boot at one month of inactivity. But after a couple booted guildies hunted us down when they got back to game, and let me know how hurt they were, I reconsidered. Out of that near 1k, we never have more than a couple hundred who have been gone for over 3 months. Not a bad percentage really.
Reply Quote
64 Night Elf Druid
465
To Nebliina....

Hi... to be honest... i'm not a major fan of my ideas for resolve either. In some ways they can be considered a fair arguement... and in other ways... I agree... they are a bit crazy to consider. But.... we have to start somewhere.

My interests with this forum post was/is to offer attention to some issues that I see others struggling with (including myself), add some starter ideas to get us all off and running... and see if others would chime in and maybe offer a few experiences and ideas as well. So far.... that seems to be going fairly well.

Thanks for your post.
Reply Quote
64 Night Elf Druid
465
To Scyllair....

(You commented)
As for you "claiming" you know alot about the game, no offence but that is laughable. There are so many random questions that people can ask, I know I dont know all of them, having played every class does help with alot of them though. If you think that you learnt it all within 2 months of playing.. well you got alot to learn.

(In reply)
First... I will apologize for such a claim... as I can see how riduculous that would seem to you, and to others.

What I meant was... despite the fact that I haven't played yet (for example) all of the instances the game of WOW has to offer. I have however played literally countless instance type dungeons on far too many similiar type games over the past 20 years on systems such as Atari, Coleco Vision, Nintendo, Sega, and of course... the Playstation consoles. (as many other players have done as well).

To me... an instance/dungeon is nothing more than just another map to trek through which commonly have things like enemies, treasure boxes, traps, etc..... some you have to turn right, or turn left.... some have stairs, holes to jump in, ropes to climb, and even the occassional fake wall.... and so on and on and on. Other than graphics and/or perhaps game mechanics of spells... or ability to jump that differ from one game to the next... I can quickly get that deja-vous type of feeling before I even enter the entrance of a new dungeon.

What makes a dungeon stand out as "new" (imo) are puzzles. Such as experienced in Final Fantasy X.... the instances/Temples..... had orbs that you had to place in a particular configuration to unlock the new Aeon... and if you did it right... you'd get the secret treasure box (majorly important) to achieve the final Aeon.

I wish Blizzard would implement some puzzle ideas as well. Puzzles (imo) can nicely enhance game play ... but... that's a completely different forum post lol.

I didn't mean to give that... "i'm a know-it-all game player" now after just 2 months of play.... but rather.. I meant that ... i've played alot of games over the years.... and though WOW is quite the large game with much content.... I think I have at least the basic idea under control.

Again... sorry for the misleading comments.
Edited by Sleighter on 10/19/2012 9:10 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
10/18/2012 10:51 PMPosted by Sleighter
however.... sheeeesh girl lol. Lets keep in mind that running a guild in WOW involves .... errrrrrr.... well.... the game of WOW. And though you may be an excellent leader in general... not knowing the game at all can be a major liability to your members who may be looking to you for guidance and leadership in/for a world where you are still basically looking for the bathroom (sort of speak).


Lol I have been raiding Since BC now... this game is not hard , not by a long shot
No leader knows everything. But a good leader knows what his strenghts and weakeness are and how to deal with them so they do not hamper him as a leader.

I know a guy , he plays the game well, he is an excellant progressive raider likely #2 Pally tank on the server if not iin the BG , and yet for as much as he knows about the game, he makes a poor leader. If you ask him a question he is more likely to tell you to ask a guard or go to leetistjerks and find the answer yourself.

So your premise that a good guild leader must also be knowledgeable about the game and play it well it very flawed

Liability? how,, if I do not know something I will look it up or find someone who does know it... You act like this game is real hard to play it is not that hard

The learning curve is quite shallow, you want a hard game to get into with a steep learning curve that does not hand hold you though the initial levels.. try playing E.V.E. Online.. that game has a very steep learning curve, and it is not easy to pick it up and play well initially , not like WoW is.

Blizz has been making this game easier and easier with each new Xpac.
Edited by Ssinfull on 10/19/2012 9:16 PM PDT
Reply Quote
64 Night Elf Druid
465
To Ssinfull....

Oh come now.... if you are the leader of a country.... the more you know about that particular country... the better you will be a leader there. We are not talking about a leadership group in the game of WOW that is independant to the game itself. You're not tennants... I assume you're not renting an apartment from WOW to run your guild for your church. You have a guild to play the game..... to do instances, build guild banks, collect herbs.... or something to do with the "game". And being that your guild (again i'm assuming) is/has been created for game play.... then it's only logical reasoning to suggest that the more you know about the game world within which you wish to be a leader... the better chance you will have of being a good leader.... at least knowledge-wise. Now... if you suck at socialism... well... that's a completely different arguement.

The major change for me here in WOW (as opposed to console games) is the fact that i'm not the only one playing the game. And being that this is the first time i've played MMORP I found this new idea very interesting, exciting, and a tad overwhelming. I discovered quickly that I wasn't just playing against the game I was trying to complete.... but also... I was (to some degree) playing against other players. The idea of scarcity became a factor for the first time as I competed for herbs and other items. Then there was the whole socialism idea with the chat boxes. These ideas alone made me feel like a brand new game player. That was great. It was nice going back to the basics for a bit and just enjoy a brand new world.
Edited by Sleighter on 10/19/2012 9:39 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Druid
15005
10/18/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Sleighter
(1) The fact that anyone can start up a guild at any time


I do not see anything wrong with this. People create guilds for all types of reasons- bank alts, RL friends & family, in game friends, Roleplay, raiding, pvp, casual/social whateverness.

On top of that how could there possibly be any way to allow some to start a guild and not others? You really can not judge experience. And level really means nothing. Being a good GM is not something you can have a check list for in game, plus as I mentioned above people would disagree on what made a good GM by what they were looking for in a guild.

Even if every nooblet & moron made their own guild- we all have the beautiful choice to join or not. So who cares if they suck at having their own little guild lol It does not concern me or my play at all. The people who join their guild will probably leave for something better shortly and the ones who stay are probably not anyone I would want in my guild anyways lol

10/18/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Sleighter
(2) Before starting up my own guild .... I was a member of two others. Both of which was before I reached level 10 on my main


Way back in vanilla when I first started playing I joined a guild before I even left the night elf starter area. I was brand new to the game & had zero clue what I was doing. I was ever so thankful for that first guild. The people were so fun and helpful. The game was new so we all kindof helped each other learn stuff lol. I remember doing my first dungeons with them and when they for some reason had me run to ironforge which was quite a journey way back then and we died many times along the way lol.

Again...guilds are not just for raiding. The social aspect of the game is HUGE. A lvl one can bring huge things to a guild just in being an active chatty social person.

My guild does not recruit low lvls. We are a raiding guild and only want people of max lvl (besides alts & a few friends and family). But that doesn't mean other guilds shouldn't be allowed to invite them.

10/18/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Sleighter
(3) I'm going to try to make this one a short note. 1000 members????


Why not? I don't see anything wrong with that. Does it hurt anyone? My guild has 503 members currently. And we are good with clearing out the people who do not actively play. I love big guilds. More people online to do stuff with and talk to.

10/18/2012 04:41 AMPosted by Sleighter
(4) Guild hopping


Honestly there is nothing wrong with changing guilds. Punishing people for being in a guild they do not like would be almost cruel. Back in BC I was a member of an insane amount of guilds after my guild broke up :( I had a very hard time finding one which was not full of morons. There is no way to know how a guild is run or how they members act or even how active it is.

And I tried very hard to be picky. I would not just jump in any guild who threw me an invite. I would talk to the people recruiting asking a ton of questions so that everything sounded perfectly. I would join and see that after a bit the guild chat was far worse then trade chat. Full of immature kids who annoyed me with every word they typed. They would do very naughty things that I didn't wish to be associated with. Or fairly often after asking my most important question of how active they were find out that 99% of the time I would be the only person online and if someone else was online they never ever spoke.... lol

Punishing people who leave is not the answer. A good guild will grow and flourish if they put in the effort to make it a guild where people want to be a part of. But even so you can't let people leaving hurt your feelings. People want different things. Just because your guild isn't the right fit for that person doesn't mean that it won't be for someone else.

I am super good friends with some people in game. I met them by being a part of their guild forever ago in BC. I adore them. I would never ever rejoin their guild lol. I run stuff with them all the time and we all have alot of fun playing together but we have very different views about what we want in a guild.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
Come on leading a guild in WoW is not anywhere near the same thing as leading a country.

Your comparing apples to oranges here.

Your premise that you have to be thoughtly versed in how to Play WoW to be a good guild leader is quite flawed.

If you want to hold off being a guild leader til you feel you know enough about the game that is fine. That is your right to do so. Not everyone feels that way, nor should they be forced to jump through a series of tests to prove they can lead a guild.

who are you to tell me that I was a bad guild leader simply because I was new? Where you a member of my guild? no, So you have no basis to judge whether I was good or bad.

All you are doing is making an Assumption that I could not have been a good guild leader because I was new .

Well you do know what they say about Assumptions do you not?
Reply Quote
64 Night Elf Druid
465
To Ssinfull....

I'm not saying you were a bad leader because you were new.... at least not "sociologically".

But... if you are going to assume the position of Team leader in a group that is trying to find their way through the woods.... i'm sorry you don't feel that it would be a really great idea if you... as team leader.... at least knew a little bit about what you were trying to lead the rest of the people through.

And I agree.... because you are really great at telling jokes... mending arguements.... and encouraging new friendships... that side of your leadership will greatly come in handy... especially when some of the group members start getting a little frustrated about still being lost... and it's starting to get dark.... but.... IF you... as team leader actually took the time to learn the woods first... before deciding to assume a position of leader... then maybe.... the group of people would be out of the woods already.... lol.

Please don't take this the wrong way but... If I were lost in the woods.... I would vote for the person who actually knew where he/she was going.... despite the fact he/she may not be all that social. I understand... we aren't really talking about being lost in the woods... that was just a metaphor... but... i'm just saying.... to some degree... same difference.

It's ok with me if you don't have a great personality. I don't want you to be a mean person.... but I don't need you to be a fun person either.

What I do need however.... is someone who can help me get through those instances. Can you help me do that? Do you have that game knowledge/experience? If yes... then maybe I want to be on your team. If no... then maybe I want to be on somebody elses team.... despite and regardless of your great personality.
Edited by Sleighter on 10/20/2012 12:41 AM PDT
Reply Quote
64 Night Elf Druid
465
To Ssinfull.....

The point I was trying to get across in my last post is ..... some people (I assume) are here to play the game.... not to just make new friends.... and that the two ideas.... friendship and gameplay ... go hand in hand. Being an outgoing person who is great with people is a really nice attribute. Hats off to you if you have this skill. And if you were sitting in a park on a sunny day trying to meet new people... I trust that skill would help you.

But on a game site... where people come to play the game.... assuming to be a leader in that game... again.... i'm sorry if you don't feel that it would be nice if you knew at least a little bit about the game you were assuming to lead people through.

I'm guessing we can go back and forth on this for a dozen more pages. Personally... I think you and I need to simply agree to disagree on this topic.

Thanks for posting.... you're great to chat with.
Edited by Sleighter on 10/20/2012 12:59 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
I do disagree and guess I will have to agree with you on the point to just let it go.

Again Your assuming what a player wants in a guild leader. Rather than assume what a player wants in a guild leader, why do you not ask?

Not everyone wants or expects a guild leader to be :knowledgeable on the every aspect of the game, just on the aspect of the game he is directing his guild towards. ( and even then if he recruits players who are knowledgable where he is not, it negates his knowledge gap)

So rather than Assume you know what players want in a guild leader maybe you need to ask ?
Edited by Ssinfull on 10/20/2012 7:44 AM PDT
Reply Quote
64 Night Elf Druid
465
To Ssinfull....

(1) No... i'm NOT assuming what a player wants in a guild leader (please be careful of your own assumptions). What I am assuming ... if anything... is what a guild leader should provide to his/her members.

(2) And if a player doesn't expect a guild leader to be knowledgable in "every" aspect of the game.... that's fine. When did I suggest otherwise???

What I said was..... a person should take a "little" more time to learn a "little" more about the world he/she assume to be a leader in. Emphasis on the word "little". At no time did I suggest that a player should learn "ALL" of the game first.

Lets both be careful please of creating testimonies for the other.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
Well I still read what you are saying that I as a player should look for a knowledgeable guild leader...that a knowledgeable guild leader is mandatory to run a successfull guild.

Well game Knowledge is not one of my top 5 must haves when I look at guild leaders,
It really depends on what his exact job function in the guild is besides being a guild leader.
ie is he a raid leader as well.. if he is a raid leader then yes I do expect him to know the fights and mechanics of those fights.. but only as a raid leader..

Not all guild leaders are raid leaders

So again before you go making statements that a guild leader should be knowledgeable about the game before starting a guild, should you not ask what the market ie the players , are wanting in a guild leader?
Edited by Ssinfull on 10/20/2012 1:36 PM PDT
Reply Quote
I don't really have any problems with the way the guild system is set up now. It's fairly flexible other than not being unable to truly "share" the top spot.

I've been pretty lucky. In my nearly 8 years in the game, I've been in 3 guilds with 6 of those years in the Rangers. We are a large guild. We have about 850 now -- BUT some of us have more than one account and we absolutely love leveling alts. Actual accounts...that's at about 180 or so I believe.

We also have a lot of long-time members who go on extended breaks. They trust me to keep them around so they're still part of the guild family when they circle back to WOW, which they eventually do. It was difficult to handle it that way when the level cap was only 500. I was ecstatic when it was raised to 1000! Now I can keep our old friends around to my heart's content, and to their satisfaction when they come back.

So while the guild system isn't perfect and may not do what everyone wants it to do, it is functional and I dare say that most people find a way to work within the current structure.
Edited by Myschyf on 10/20/2012 4:32 PM PDT
Reply Quote
5 Human Rogue
0
This is just my 2 cents as far guilds go. I myself have been a guild hopper. I get tired of the so called raiding guilds not letting people raid other then their own little group. They say they are going to have raid tryouts and then automatically pick out the raid team by who they are friends with. And the people in the raid team aren't even geared.. they just hope they are ready to raid by the day of the raid. I personally think this is unfair to the people who have worked their butts off to get the gear , and ready to raid. So, many guilds out there that won't give people the chance to raid , and when people do get the chance to raid , the new expansion is out and they say now we will run with you and get that achievement. Are there any guilds out there that don't play favorites and are actually willing to give every person a chance to tryout for the raid team?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
4490
10/20/2012 09:50 PMPosted by Mysticalstar
Are there any guilds out there that don't play favorites and are actually willing to give every person a chance to tryout for the raid team?


There are guilds out there who do not play favorites,, but often when I hear this statement and ask to inspect the persons toon who says they are ready to raid,, I find a lot of problems

no enchants, no geming, questionable spec choice, No professions leveled, using gear that is not appropriate, .. I tell all my raiders and potential trials that if you want to raid,, have your toon raid ready.. do not come to me asking for a raid spot and not be prepared.

Second if you want to raid and are looking for a guild, look for one that actually does have an opening, do not fall for the oh come on and in we will have an opening soon or we plan on starting a second team.. if you want to raid look for an opening that is open, not one that maybe open someday.
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Warrior
9435
10/19/2012 09:37 PMPosted by Sleighter
Oh come now.... if you are the leader of a country.... the more you know about that particular country... the better you will be a leader there


To a point. Humans specialize for a reason, as a leader, it's not your job to know everything, it's your job to know who to ask. You need to know enough to realize when you need more information, and you need to *trust* the people around you, because you're not smarter than them, no matter what your ego tells you.

And that should fall over to strategies as well. The leader can't have all the good ideas, sometimes that dps is going to have a fantastic observation that's going to make you feel silly for not thinking of it yourself.

This idea that the great leaders know everything, or even know "a lot" is a mistake imo. Trust the people around you, and foster their input. You'd be amazed at how well it works from a 'human relations' perspective. Trust is the key.
Reply Quote
5 Human Rogue
0
My main is geared and enchanted , what I was trying to say is the raid teams were picked out before everyone was even geared or the right ilvl. That is what I was saying. How fair is it to pick raid teams when people aren't even ready to raid any good rl would have had at least tryouts and not picked teams out yet. Personally I feel this is unfair.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]