Nerf second wind for the love of god.

(Locked)

90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
And the blood DK can't chain stuns and silences on you, then swap back to a high-DPS mode and blow you up.
90 Orc Warrior
8870
When a warrior goes sword and board in defensive stance and is NOT prot, and is able to hold off 3-4 people with second wind alone, thats just broken.

Plus prot warriors are almost as annoying as Blood DKs or Resto Druids to take down.
Brewmasters, Ferals, and Prot pallies aren't NEARLY as bad as the above specs.


If a Warrior is able to do that for more than a few seconds while popping every defensive CD they have, there is seriously something wrong with the people trying to kill him.
90 Night Elf Monk
8720
Second Wind is fine, I'm a WW Monk and have no real "Burst CDs" yet I still can finish a Warrior off by myself. People need to learn to Pool resources/ keep CDs for that last 35% instead of facerolling all over keyboards hoping to kill something.
90 Night Elf Monk
14435
10/23/2012 11:24 PMPosted by Velkyn
Second Wind is fine, I'm a WW Monk and have no real "Burst CDs" yet I still can finish a Warrior off by myself. People need to learn to Pool resources/ keep CDs for that last 35% instead of facerolling all over keyboards hoping to kill something.


Once you run into a Warrior with a full PvP set, its not nearly as easy anymore. But ones without PVP sets? Second wind doesn't even exist for them.
90 Night Elf Monk
8720
10/23/2012 11:25 PMPosted by Lightvoid
Second Wind is fine, I'm a WW Monk and have no real "Burst CDs" yet I still can finish a Warrior off by myself. People need to learn to Pool resources/ keep CDs for that last 35% instead of facerolling all over keyboards hoping to kill something.


Once you run into a Warrior with a full PvP set, its not nearly as easy anymore. But ones without PVP sets? Second wind doesn't even exist for them.


You seem to assume much. Theres plenty of Warriors running around with Full gear/T1 Weaps already. My previous statement still holds. You can still take them 1v1 if you know what your doing, granted its a bit more challenging as a monk due to our "execute" mechanic being 10%. Every other classes? Even easier to eat that last 35%.
90 Pandaren Monk
2670
10/23/2012 10:03 PMPosted by Lightvoid
Brewmasters, Ferals, and Prot pallies aren't NEARLY as bad as the above specs.

Eh... heh, that depends on who you ask.

I've gotten plenty of physical damage dealers to rage at me when I pvp as Brew.
90 Worgen Druid
11265
i think the issue most people find annoying is that its up the moment the warrior is brought low and remains.

i mean think about it. warrior brings you low : HUZZAH I CAN NOW EXECUTE!. you bring warrior low: HUZZAH SECOND WIND!


The whole reason for that absolutely massive nerf right before the xpac dropped was to deal with the newly superpowered execute, so don't even try and bring that up. PvE warriors as well as PvP suffered heavily from that. I would have prefered an execute nerf, and kept my other abilities, so I could actually do damage during the other 80% of the fight. In PvE now, warriors live for that last 20. Nerfing it anymore would be ridiculous, and all just to solve a slight PvP imbalance? Think again. Taking an axe to warriors may be what you want, but that's not a practical, or by any means fair, solution.


mr overly defensive warrior you completely missed the point of the post.

the statement was about concept, not the appearance. ill explain. say you hit something. k? bring it down to 20% of its life, and you are like, OH MAN SO CLOSE, but suddenly "oh !@#$ its healing!" now normally youd try to keep pushing past that heal to kill it. or..just wait it out and then re engage with greater ferocity or cc. issue is. in this case, moment the heal triggers it remains.

the comparision with execute was similar but mirrored. you as a warrior, as you yourself said, live for that last 20sec. imagine that now instead of just execute, your attacks actually give the target a buff which increases their healing by 20%. what now? kinda counter productive no?

as for a technical approach to this. everyone knows its the pairing with defensive stance that makes this problem...annoying. the buff being up passively moment you cross a threshold comes after that specific hurdle.

hopefully next time when you answer you wont automatically assume everyone wants to gut your lovely precious warrior and actively communicate.
100 Orc Warrior
12175
mr overly defensive warrior you completely missed the point of the post.

the statement was about concept, not the appearance. ill explain. say you hit something. k? bring it down to 20% of its life, and you are like, OH MAN SO CLOSE, but suddenly "oh !@#$ its healing!" now normally youd try to keep pushing past that heal to kill it. or..just wait it out and then re engage with greater ferocity or cc. issue is. in this case, moment the heal triggers it remains.

the comparision with execute was similar but mirrored. you as a warrior, as you yourself said, live for that last 20sec. imagine that now instead of just execute, your attacks actually give the target a buff which increases their healing by 20%. what now? kinda counter productive no?

as for a technical approach to this. everyone knows its the pairing with defensive stance that makes this problem...annoying. the buff being up passively moment you cross a threshold comes after that specific hurdle.

hopefully next time when you answer you wont automatically assume everyone wants to gut your lovely precious warrior and actively communicate.


You say that "everyone knows its the pairing with defensive stance that makes this problem...annoying" but that's not even sort of what I see being thrown about. It's always "SW IS SO OP NERF IT TO A 3 MINUTE ICD AND IT ONLY HEALS FOR 1% PER SECOND" or some other such nonsense. The Defensive Stance issue is problematic not in the sense that it combos but in the sense that it's actually rewarding proper play, and thus nerfing Defensive Stance is reducing incentive to play smart. People always seem to forget that we lose significant amounts of damage when we go into Defensive Stance. That having been said, I can see why it would be considered an issue and it's an easy enough fix. Just drop it to 15% damage reduction and give Prot a passive that brings it back up to 25% just for them. Gutting Second Wind, a talent which is honestly not the biggest issue that Warriors have, doesn't solve anything. It doesn't solve our pretty brutal burst or control (though the Gag Order nerf is going way too far, removing Pummel blanket silence would have been enough combined with a nerf to Shockwave).
93 Troll Shaman
7785
defensive stance:

-> reduce ALL DAMAGE by 25%

this is what is making warr almost unkillable combined with second wind


The irony in warriors whining about druids going bear form to mitigate damage and now having this is surely not lost on anyone else?
100 Orc Warrior
9870
defensive stance:

-> reduce ALL DAMAGE by 25%

this is what is making warr almost unkillable combined with second wind


The irony in warriors whining about druids going bear form to mitigate damage and now having this is surely not lost on anyone else?


Because Warriors all got jobs at Blizzard HQ and got Defensive stance changed to 25% damage reduction, or balanced our class the way it is currently.

Quit being emo and treating everything like some personal battleground for your emotions. It's childish.

Do you think that contributed anything to the conversation?

We just play the class and the hand Blizzard dealt us, had very little (if anything at all through forum feedback) to do with the current state of warriors.
50 Human Priest
14170
10/23/2012 03:06 PMPosted by Grux
Just nerf Second Wind, no need to gut every other defense warriors have for the sake of a semi-powerful hot when at low health. Let's use out brains here, it's obvious second wind is too powerful and needs an ICD of some sort to keep it from having 100% uptime when low on health.


It seems a lot like the original Nature's Guardian that shaman used to have that could chain proc. It was nerfed in BC by introducing an internal cooldown. I am unsure why Second Wind doesn't have one now and Nature's Guardian does when they do very similar things.
70 Blood Elf Warrior
2660
The problem is they gutted feral druids for the same reason. No class with burst that high should be able to turtle to become unkillable.
90 Night Elf Death Knight
NoS
8660
o dont worry i have a feeling when they nerf warriors its gonna be pretty bad ( and i know its gonna happen sometime )

they will prbly 0VERnerf them

poor warriors lol
Edited by Mästerbäbe on 10/24/2012 4:52 AM PDT
93 Human Warrior
6370
defensive stance:

-> reduce ALL DAMAGE by 25%

this is what is making warr almost unkillable combined with second wind


Just so you are aware, warriors sit in D stance for the entirety of a match whether or not they are being focused. Any damage you put on a warrior is with this 25% included, at all times, unless you are playing against a bad who doesn't realize the bonus of being in battle stance is almost zero.

If maybe adds one heroic strike to a burst rotation. Not worth being swapped to and killed in a stun.

Warriors have been sitting ducks once they get low for a long time. Sword and board would gimp damage so hard once u got a warrior defensive it was nearly impossible to get outta that hole. Second wind might be too strong in 1v1 (ie, not balanced) play, but we need some way to survive too.

I think once pummel/hs silence are gone, warrior uptime and lock down will be reduced, thus allowing more damage to go into them. Have a good morning!
90 Gnome Warlock
7990
Like I said before. I actually dont mind Second Wind. but....

It should not be a passive that works 100% of the time that a warrior is below 35%.

Make it either a CD, or make it have an ICD once it heals up to 35% let it not heal for another 20-30 seconds.

Makes it useful but not overpowered like it is now.

Because its not like the warrior is just going to let you stand and set up the burst needed to get him down to execute range. Nope they are going to stick on you to nullify your big damage which then makes killing a warrior all but impossible without help.


This is at least a well though out solution, but not really practical. As soon as a warrior drops below 35, second wind kicks in. If there is a cd on it, that means all a player has to do is hit the warrior to 34ish percent, then stop dps so the warrior heals to 35, where the cooldown kicks in, then commence dps. I think the solution lies in finding ways to lower burst by way of cooldown stacking. With that taken care of, a warrior, even with heals, won't be any more of a threat than any other dps that has a healer nearby. If you're worried about him dropping into his defensive stance and utilizing that nice 25% damage reduction, then you aren't worried about him doing damage. Once in defensive, he basically becomes a turtle. He can eat a ton of damage, but deal almost none, thanks to a severely handicapped rage generation, as it should be. He can either do damage and have a little help from second wind, or do zero damage and live a long time. In any situation with more than 1v1, either scenario is easily dealt with. It all comes down to fixing burst issues across the board, but only in PvP.


So there is nothing else in your toolkit that you can do for 20-30 seconds?

The reason it is so hard as a lock is we cant get away to be able to cast easily so you mitigate incoming damage just by being on the lock. Unless we placed our portal and gateway or can land a full fear, which wont help too much with the ability to just charge right back on the lock. So if you truly cant withstand 20-30 seconds without second wind then you truly are not a good player. If second wind has become that huge crutch then please just admit that. Yes there are classes that can more easily power through second wind but notice its mostly melee that is saying that. Why? Because the warrior can get on a caster and mitigate outgoing damage just by being on them.
90 Worgen Druid
11265
You say that "everyone knows its the pairing with defensive stance that makes this problem...annoying" but that's not even sort of what I see being thrown about. It's always "SW IS SO OP NERF IT TO A 3 MINUTE ICD AND IT ONLY HEALS FOR 1% PER SECOND" or some other such nonsense. The Defensive Stance issue is problematic not in the sense that it combos but in the sense that it's actually rewarding proper play, and thus nerfing Defensive Stance is reducing incentive to play smart. People always seem to forget that we lose significant amounts of damage when we go into Defensive Stance. That having been said, I can see why it would be considered an issue and it's an easy enough fix. Just drop it to 15% damage reduction and give Prot a passive that brings it back up to 25% just for them. Gutting Second Wind, a talent which is honestly not the biggest issue that Warriors have, doesn't solve anything. It doesn't solve our pretty brutal burst or control (though the Gag Order nerf is going way too far, removing Pummel blanket silence would have been enough combined with a nerf to Shockwave).


Oh i know, but expecting the majority of these forums to have an unbiased and clear view which favours game balance over the class they currently play is a TALL order.

And you hit the hammer on the nail. I was gonna add my second point later. That what defensive stance is doing in many WARPED (i said warped) ways equals this:

Warlock is getting destroyed, uses summoning portal to get away. Technically since hes not doing any dmg when he runs away, here lets give him a buff that heals him like second wind but call it, second sausage. argument?: but his dots are ticking! weak rebuttal: but he is running away! thus not doing 100% of what he could be doing!

Feral druid is getting destroyed, hits bear form. Technically since now his dmg output is lesser than before lets give him a buff that heals him like second wind but call it, Armored pickle. argument?: but hes still hitting me! wtf! and he just stunned me with bear hug! weak rebuttal: yea but hes not hitting you as hard as he could is he now?!

Its a simple stance change (a watered down version of what stance dance actually used to be and how much it required compared to now, to do it correctly) yet it rewards enough to be a fairly big annoyance for 1 click.

i totally agree with the suggestions for reducing def stance. and yea gag order nerf caught me off guard too.

Im not claiming to be this knowledgeable gamer who knows everything about anything. I am just trying to give a scenario as what is going on and why the mindset of frustration is there. and i think youll agree that even if this was fixed/changed/w.e players would still find something else to complain about if a warrior ever came along and whooped their !@#.
90 Night Elf Monk
14435
Another problem that should be compared is that tier of talents and why Second Wind is always the best choice.

Enraged Regeneration
60 Rage
Instant cast 1 min cooldown
Instantly heals you for 10% of your total health, and an additional 10% over 5 sec.

Can be used while stunned. Costs no Rage if used while Enraged.

This equals 1% health every 3 seconds at a cost and also requires some imput from the warrior.

Second Wind
Whenever you are below 35% health, you regenerate 3% health per second.

Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect, you generate 20 Rage over 10 sec.

This effect is passive, equals 3% health every second under 35%, AND gives rage, unlike the other two talents which don't give rage or take it away unless certain conditions are met.

Impending Victory (Glyphed)
10 Rage Melee Range
Instant cast 30 sec cooldown
Instantly attack the target causing (AP * 56 / 100) damage and healing you for 20% of your maximum health.

Killing an enemy that yields experience or honor resets the cooldown of Impending Victory and causes your next Impending Victory to heal for 30% of your maximum health.

Replaces Victory Rush.

This ability requires rage to use, generates the equivalent of .66% health/sec, and requires a glyph slot in order to reach maximum efficiency.

The problem is that Second wind requires no input from the warrior, generates rage at all times if the warrior is rooted or stunned instead of taking rage away, and generates more than 3x the amount of health per second than the other talents, with no cooldown or anything of the sort.

Now if second wind required input from the warrior to activate and didn't generate rage for them, or didn't heal for so much compared to the other talents, then it would be balanced, but as it is, its too OP.

Or they could make Second Wind a carbon copy of Ardent Defender, where you have to push a button and if your killed, your instead taken to say, 20-35% hp. that would be fine as well.
Edited by Lightvoid on 10/24/2012 9:56 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Monk
10290
Like I said before. I actually dont mind Second Wind. but....

It should not be a passive that works 100% of the time that a warrior is below 35%.

Make it either a CD, or make it have an ICD once it heals up to 35% let it not heal for another 20-30 seconds.

Makes it useful but not overpowered like it is now.

Because its not like the warrior is just going to let you stand and set up the burst needed to get him down to execute range. Nope they are going to stick on you to nullify your big damage which then makes killing a warrior all but impossible without help.


No, that would make it pretty much completely useless. Warriors already don't take enraged regen for a damn reason... How second wind now is the only way it would be useful unless they reverted (And buffed) it to it's old form.
90 Orc Warrior
6130
second wind isnt even that Op lol if u cant burst over 30k in a few seconds ur so bad. i hate how people are complaining how OP warriors are have u seen Bm hunters and destro warlocks in Arena's its all about who pops Cds first like srsly.
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