[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
THREAD HAS BEEN CAPPED! Continuation found here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004452105

OP has been updated as of 10/28

If everyone else was suffering mobility issues, that's fine; the L90 talents would be completely justifiable and I thought everyone else had issues, so I rolled with it.

Hunter
- Aspect of the Fox has been removed.
- Steady Shot, Cobra Shot, and Barrage can now always be cast on the move.


Oh okay... I guess they needed more mob-- *Tires screech* Wait... WHAT?!

I'm sorry, but weren't most of the other Hunter abilities already instant? I wasn't aware they needed 100% mobility...

Warlock
- Kil'jaeden's Cunning no longer increases the cast time of the spell.


... What. Are you serious?

So obviously, there is no mobility limitations now for Hunters nor Warlocks. I also know that Elemental Shamans are quite good on mobility as most of their spells are instant (like us), Lightning Bolt can be glyphed to be mobile, and they don't require to stand still constantly. Shadow Priests aren't in a horrible place either, but they could use a tweak or two. Boomkins are in a meh spot, but they're like casters used to be. So, why are Mages now at rock bottom when it comes to mobility? Why are Hunters and Warlocks now untaxed for movement? (Warlocks lose up to 20% movement speed as a "tax" for this awesome passive. I'd gladly give up 50% of my movement speed for all my spells to be usable while casting)

Invocation requires you to stand still completely for 4.5-6s every 40s (and if interrupted, even more time), Rune of Power is so small and requires constant replacing when the smallest little AoE pool lands on it (as well as no movement at all), and IW requires you to pre-emptively get hit by stuff, in addition to it not being all that powerful and making you unviable DPS compared to the other two. In addition, when you don't break that shield, you'll lose the passive 6%, making your DPS even worse.

The worst part is that these abilities are so super clunky and forced to be used because without them, your DPS plummets (even with IW, your DPS will suffer unless you're in PvP). Not only that, but they're horribly boring to use as well as mess up your rotation (especially for a Procc class)

In addition to all of that, a handful of other classes get fun, bonus, talents rather than ones that simply allow them to do viable DPS.
- Priests get amazingly fun talents, like Cascade and Halo, that I'm really envious about.
- Paladins get Execution Sentence and Light's Hammer that not only look cool, but dish out some nice damage and healing.
- Warriors got (another) nice stun called Storm Bolt that does 400% damage against Stun Immune mobs (reminds me old Deep Freeze...) as well as Avatar, an awesome damage increasing cooldown ability.
- Druid's talents allows you to play another role for 45s (once per fight, unfortunately) with heavily increased stats, or have another damage increasing cooldown.
- Hunters got a handful of interesting AoE abilities that work in a straight line.
- Shamans got a spell that works like Windsong, as well as controllable pets and a nice passive addition to their Unleash Elements spell.
- Warlocks get a 'backlash' talent that increases their DPS output, or (in 5.1) complete mobility on every one of their spells.
- Monks get an improvement to their really fun ability, Roll, that allows them to deal damage and healing with it. They can also summon a tornado to do damage/heals, and summon Xuen, the White Tiger celestial to dish out some nice AoE every 3 minutes.

Mages get... viable DPS... in the most clunky, boring, and movement-taxing way possible. You can't honestly say that these are fun with a straight face, even less if you've tested them in PvE and PvP.

While the talents look fine on sims, on paper, and in numbers, the way we obtain these numbers are just bad, they're not fun. Why bother having a beta if it's not to test things, then change them if they don't work out? (There also were quite a few posts on these issues back during beta, but not a single word from Blizzard was spoken regarding these talents)

My Original Suggestions: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=17#335 (Credit for Invo Alternative to Seedee, Post #134)

Additional Suggestions by Mistwynd (Post #165): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=9#165 (Please note these new talent choices will require a buff to damage across the board because our current L90 talents allow us to be viable, not ahead of the pack) I personally would LOVE Blink improvements, as that would benefit both PvP and PvE (unlike our old Polymorph tier)

Even more Suggestions by Aureus (Post #181): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=10#181
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/29/2012 9:29 AM PDT
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Compilation of issues with L90 talents by Howmanylichs (Post #436): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=22#436

More suggestions by Silvermage (Post #456): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=23#456

Even more suggestions by Howmanylichs (Post #462): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=24#462
Howmanylichs further explains his suggestions (Post #485): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=25#485

10/28 Update: Invocation change reverted according to GC (Didn't even get implemented in the PTR). RoP still has no cooldown, IW still needs tweaking. Source for GC's decision is on his Twitter (not an absolute source of communication, but it should still be taken into account since the PTR doesn't have the Invocation change)
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 2:37 PM PDT
90 Draenei Mage
7935
I agree, Pew. It's just so tiring typing out the same things over and over from Beta about those talents. The forums and lack of dev action or response sometimes start to wear on a guy, y'know?
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/19/2012 01:44 PMPosted by Mivva
I agree, Pew. It's just so tiring typing out the same things over and over from Beta about those talents. The forums and lack of dev action or response sometimes start to wear on a guy, y'know?


I will fight until 5.1 hits/I get a confirmation that things will be changed/not changed.

The earlier I know (for either side), the better. I need to know if I should start hardcore leveling my Warlock or not because I refuse to play a horribly convoluted class any longer (silly how we used to be the most simple and now we're like the most complex. Not fun) because of
one tier of talents that forces itself into my playstyle.

So, could a blue either give me a miracle or end our suffering once and for all? We have countless threads concerned about this issue in the Mage forum, in the beta forum, all over the place. No one likes em in their current state; they demand tweaking. We've been asking since beta and received no word at all. We leveled on live and still dislike them. Hunters whine about some mobility, and bam, they're given 100% mobility. We're complaining about having little to no mobility and we're given a set of nerfs and a cold shoulder. It's really demoralizing when no one seems to care about your concerns when they are shared with thousands of others.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/19/2012 1:48 PM PDT
100 Human Mage
15060
10/19/2012 01:39 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Nobody? C'mon fellow Mages, you know this is an even worse issue than the upcoming Pyroblast nerf...

I'm sorry, I've been rallying against the tier 90 talents for what seems like six months now.

I'm out of energy to do it anymore. I want to stick it out.. But ugh..
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/19/2012 01:53 PMPosted by Mumrit
Nobody? C'mon fellow Mages, you know this is an even worse issue than the upcoming Pyroblast nerf...

I'm sorry, I've been rallying against the tier 90 talents for what seems like six months now.

I'm out of energy to do it anymore. I want to stick it out.. But ugh..


Can't stop. Can't ever stop until they force us to (hey, like these talents force themselves into our playstyle!)

Like I said, I will fight until 5.1 because that's as long as I'm giving the change. This is like early cata all over again when we were forced into Arcane for two whole tiers, and I for one am sick of playing a class that not only 80% of the PvP community accuses us as "OP" (when we have nothing BUT DF which they just nerfed...), but constantly being ruined or unviable.
1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
So obviously, there is no mobility limitations now for Hunters, and I'm willing to bet that those assumptions I had about other classes are null and void, so why on Azeroth are Mages being taxed so heavily on movement when 99% of these encounters require heavy movement...?

I think the obvious answer here is that because different classes are different (and in that particularly comparison, Hunters have more mobility, and mages do tremendously more damage if they get to stand still).

Also your rune of power suggestion makes the ability essentially meaningless. 0 cooldown, instant cast, double radius and an extra rune down? It's basically a passive at that point.

I like the invocation and IW suggestions though.
Edited by Aureus on 10/19/2012 2:03 PM PDT
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/19/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Aureus
Also your rune of power suggestion makes the ability essentially meaningless. 0 cooldown, instant cast, double radius and an extra rune down? It's basically a passive at that point.


You could probably remove the extra rune down part. Also, you didn't spot where I said "the parentheses or not", meaning either remove the cooldown or the cast time; one of the two needs to happen. Double Radius size would mean that not literally every tiny spark that is thrown down (e.g., Amethyst Pools, despite being tiny, still cover 99% of our RoP) would completely ruin your RoP, especially if you just put it down. If 2x is too big, then 1.5x. As it stands, there's just too many restrictions to use it.

10/19/2012 02:01 PMPosted by Aureus
I like the invocation and IW suggestions though.


Thanks! IW felt passive to begin with, so removing the 6% when you use the ability simply penalizes you for doing a slight miscalculation in your brain while you were avoiding bad stuff, doing damage, and doing the mechanics. It shouldn't be THAT complicated to figure out if the cost will yield a greater effect in the end WHILE working out so much more in your brain. It should be a no-brainer (like Ice Barrier) that you just pop when you're taking damage (LIKE OLD INCANTER'S ABSORPTION. GO FIGURE!) or pre-emptively to damage (LIKE TEMPORAL SHIELD. Man, so much copy/paste around our abilities, haha)

Invocation I just feel needs some tweaking in many of its aspects. The quicker cast time would make it feel less like Castlevania II (on an NES, not an emulator) where you just sit there waiting for the box to disappear. Only difference is during those 5 seconds, you can get fire thrown on you and force you to wait out the full duration again, while that one just happens on its own against your will. I do like the support utility of Invocation, but sitting there for 4.5-6 seconds every 30-45 is just so... blech.
90 Draenei Mage
7935
10/19/2012 01:53 PMPosted by Mumrit
Nobody? C'mon fellow Mages, you know this is an even worse issue than the upcoming Pyroblast nerf...

I'm sorry, I've been rallying against the tier 90 talents for what seems like six months now.

I'm out of energy to do it anymore. I want to stick it out.. But ugh..


I hear you, buddy :(
100 Blood Elf Mage
23455
I've been following the topic for a while now, without intervening, thinking that there was no way no change would be made to any/all of our tier 6 talents. After all, multiple issues were brought up multiple times by multiple people. I personally don't know anyone on or off the forums that truly enjoy those talents.

In any case, thank you, Pew, to keep on with the fight. You're doing the mage community a big favor. I believe I could live with your suggested changes. They already go a long way to make our lives more enjoyable.

I particularly approve with the Incanter's Ward suggestion. Spending a GCD is already punishing enough if you fail to receive damage without additionally losing the passive. I think I'd bump up the shield duration to 10 seconds too, since the buff lasts 15 and the cooldown on the ward is 25; that would just make sense to me anyways.

One more thing I could think of is possibly changing Invocation into a 3 second cast-time spell rather than a channel. This way, if you're forced to cancel it, it wouldn't go on cooldown. There's nothing more irritating than starting to channel evo to have fire spawn on you forcing you to cancel it, and then sit, unbuffed, for 5-8 seconds, only to give it an other attempt later. That has really been an issue ever since the Arcane spec received its mastery, and it's only made worse with the need to evo every 40 sec instead of 2 minutes.

But really, in the end, I'm really surprised those talents are even what they are. To me, they're all based on the same design : you sacrifice some time, be it on a GCD, on a 1.5 second spell or on a 6 second channel, to gain more damage for the remaining of the time. I'd really prefer to have more choice from our talents. Isn't that the whole point of the new system in the first place? An example of what I'm thinking would be to turn Rune of Power into a potent cooldown that lasts like 20 seconds on a 2 minutes cooldown. Or turn Incanter's Ward completely into a passive, granting a 10% chance to duplicate your spells, or a chance to not consume your spec's main proc; anything as long as it translates roughly in the same damage gain. But that would probably be way too much fun.
90 Night Elf Druid
12180
RoP is 100% useless in BG/Arena/PVP, who will stand there and let you pew pew him?

RoP is useless against Boss who like to throw rubbish on the floor.

Example:
Casting RoP, Boss throw you a debuff, move away and re-cast, boss throw you debuff again, move away and rebuff...
90 Pandaren Mage
10520
Ring of Power and Invocation should be glyphs but without damage bonuses. Two new talents should take their place, ones that play off core Mage mechanics such as mana regeneration abilities or Blink. Talents shouldn't completely rewrite class mechanics, they should complement them. When I asked for Arcane to have more options for mana management at Blizzcon this is not what I had in mind...
90 Worgen Druid
14435
10/19/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
So obviously, there is no mobility limitations now for Hunters, and I'm willing to bet that those assumptions I had about other classes are null and void, so why on Azeroth are Mages being taxed so heavily on movement when 99% of these encounters require heavy movement...?


The same reason Boomkins are, nobody knows.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
I've been following the topic for a while now, without intervening, thinking that there was no way no change would be made to any/all of our tier 6 talents. After all, multiple issues were brought up multiple times by multiple people. I personally don't know anyone on or off the forums that truly enjoy those talents.

In any case, thank you, Pew, to keep on with the fight. You're doing the mage community a big favor. I believe I could live with your suggested changes. They already go a long way to make our lives more enjoyable.

I particularly approve with the Incanter's Ward suggestion. Spending a GCD is already punishing enough if you fail to receive damage without additionally losing the passive. I think I'd bump up the shield duration to 10 seconds too, since the buff lasts 15 and the cooldown on the ward is 25; that would just make sense to me anyways.

One more thing I could think of is possibly changing Invocation into a 3 second cast-time spell rather than a channel. This way, if you're forced to cancel it, it wouldn't go on cooldown. There's nothing more irritating than starting to channel evo to have fire spawn on you forcing you to cancel it, and then sit, unbuffed, for 5-8 seconds, only to give it an other attempt later. That has really been an issue ever since the Arcane spec received its mastery, and it's only made worse with the need to evo every 40 sec instead of 2 minutes.

But really, in the end, I'm really surprised those talents are even what they are. To me, they're all based on the same design : you sacrifice some time, be it on a GCD, on a 1.5 second spell or on a 6 second channel, to gain more damage for the remaining of the time. I'd really prefer to have more choice from our talents. Isn't that the whole point of the new system in the first place? An example of what I'm thinking would be to turn Rune of Power into a potent cooldown that lasts like 20 seconds on a 2 minutes cooldown. Or turn Incanter's Ward completely into a passive, granting a 10% chance to duplicate your spells, or a chance to not consume your spec's main proc; anything as long as it translates roughly in the same damage gain. But that would probably be way too much fun.


All of this. Literally all of this.

10/19/2012 03:53 PMPosted by Ink
Ring of Power and Invocation should be glyphs but without damage bonuses. Two new talents should take their place, ones that play off core Mage mechanics such as mana regeneration abilities or Blink.


"Remove two abilities that play off of Mana mechanics. Add new talents that play on Mana mechanics". I'm so confused which side you're taking.

10/19/2012 03:53 PMPosted by Ink
Talents shouldn't completely rewrite class mechanics, they should complement them. When I asked for Arcane to have more options for mana management at Blizzcon this is not what I had in mind...


This, however, is pretty much everything. I'd prefer the old Tier 6 talents: Dragon's Breath, Slow, and Blast Wave, provided that my DPS was high enough that I wouldn't need to use clunky mechanics to stay VIABLE, let alone competitive.

10/19/2012 04:18 PMPosted by Prunefgt
So obviously, there is no mobility limitations now for Hunters, and I'm willing to bet that those assumptions I had about other classes are null and void, so why on Azeroth are Mages being taxed so heavily on movement when 99% of these encounters require heavy movement...?


The same reason Boomkins are, nobody knows.


Casting spells is one thing. Being FORCED to stand still is another. While casting spells always sucks, don't think you're on the same level as Mages when it comes to this issue.

It may not seem that bad, but unless you've actually played it, you can't really understand. It's like explaining bad controls on a video game; you just need first-hand experience.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/19/2012 4:22 PM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
12045
Thank you for putting this post up here, Pewpew.

I understand the reasoning (fix RNG, fix ignite munching, bring sophistication to arcane rotation, make frost raid viable, etc.) but I am among those that believe some of the changes are a setback to core Mage play style as a class.

Several well reasoned posts and several good ideas for small fixes, all the way to complete rethinking of the talents, were presented on several threads in the Mage forums.

At this point, I think we would take anything. Even if it is a simple parameter change to Incanters Ward so we can avoid the other two choices.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/19/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Fuzzywashere
At this point, I think we would take anything. Even if it is a simple parameter change to Incanters Ward so we can avoid the other two choices.


^ We just need something.

If we get nothing, I can near guarantee the quick death of the Mage class. No one enjoys these.
90 Gnome Mage
12045
10/19/2012 06:06 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
At this point, I think we would take anything. Even if it is a simple parameter change to Incanters Ward so we can avoid the other two choices.


^ We just need something.

If we get nothing, I can near guarantee the quick death of the Mage class. No one enjoys these.


I'm a die hard fan of Blizzard and I have to admit that I have been frustrated of late. I have almost 8 years of enjoyment with this toon and find it surprisingly hard to just dump and reroll.

Nonetheless, I play for fun and am willing to admit when something is over and it's time to move on. Hey, even if I have to stop playing a Mage, it was a great 8 years of great fun. For that at least I owe Blizz a big thank you!
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/19/2012 07:16 PMPosted by Fuzzywashere


^ We just need something.

If we get nothing, I can near guarantee the quick death of the Mage class. No one enjoys these.


I'm a die hard fan of Blizzard and I have to admit that I have been frustrated of late. I have almost 8 years of enjoyment with this toon and find it surprisingly hard to just dump and reroll.

Nonetheless, I play for fun and am willing to admit when something is over and it's time to move on. Hey, even if I have to stop playing a Mage, it was a great 8 years of great fun. For that at least I owe Blizz a big thank you!


Yes, but we still shouldn't have to quit our class because of something that NO Mage enjoys...
90 Gnome Mage
12045
From your keyboard to their screens.

The thing to remember is that all the issues we are presenting now were represented in beta. The commitment to changing code is a real thing and has to compete with other business decisions. That's why I'm hoping the change to Incanter's Ward will be palatable. After some analysis of how much to adjust the base damage and how far to reduce the shield bonus so that it is usable more widely and not be so situational as now, it really is a relatively simpler fix with little resource requirements - a hot fix, if you will.
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