[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents

100 Troll Mage
16620
10/26/2012 10:04 PMPosted by Naishee
Rather, I would think it would advocate a playstyle where you keep your stacks at max at all times, but use scorch as the filler. Even now, that is a near-optimal playstyle no matter what glyph you use (get 6 stacks, use missiles whenever, scorch, and only AB to make sure to keep 6 stacks up or when mana is capping).


That actually sounds pretty neat. Do you have a source for this somewhere? I tried looking a bit but came up with nothing.
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10/27/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
You know that LB detonates if you refresh it between the second-to-last and final tick, right? Also, it wasn't so much that nobody realized it was 12 ticks -- it was that nobody realized that you didn't know that it was 12 ticks.


I was not aware of that with LB, but in regards to NT, here's a quote from my reply to you (Post #3)

NT will deal ((232 + (10,000 * 0.174)) * 4), which is 7,888 damage for all 4 ticks.


Not only was that really rude to question my intelligence, but it was pretty funny for you to have egg all over your face.


My assumption was that you were comparing per-tick damage, not per-cast damage (I confess, I didn't see the word "all" -- once I saw how far off your conclusion was, I didn't dig into how you had reached it). Since the mechanics of those talents had been well-understood for weeks (I don't recall when you made those posts, I believe I had long since posted my four-post series on my blog digging deeply into them and comparing how they worked in rotation), it never occurred to me that someone simply didn't know the tick interval.

I can't tell you if, in Encounter X, IW is going to be 2% behind Rune or 6% behind Rune -- but I can tell you that if it's more than 6.6%, the difference is not being caused by the talents.


If your entire argument is based purely around the talents, then yeah, but that's far too simple. I mean, if you want your math to be purely simple, then sure, go ahead and base it like that. You can't just blow off raid mechanics entirely when trying to find TRUE numbers. No one but non-raiders will care about simple numbers; raiders will always sacrifice a bit of convenience if the DPS boost is 15-20% due to mechanics (e.g., IW vs Invo on Spiritbinder)


It would be virtually impossible for you to see a 15-20% difference on any encounter between those two talents. You take IW off your bar, and it will never give you less than 6% -- and you would have to be a machine to get more than about 11% out of Invocation (and even a machine won't get more than 11.11% out of it unless the encounter has downtime intervals timed to coincide with evocations, and never to coincide with DPS time).

Raid mechanics can push these talents up and down relative to each other -- but only within certain limits which can, in fact, be determined by very, very simple math.

ETA: Yeah, I posted my analyses on the bomb talents about four months before you opened the thread in question, and many of us had been using them since about that same time. I don't remember if I just didn't read closely enough to realize you didn't know the tick interval, or if I just thought it was more likely you had worded your post imprecisely than that you didn't know the tick interval, but it took a while before we all realized what was going on. (There was a Warlock who apparently also didn't know the interval.)

________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
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Edited by Lhivera on 10/27/2012 10:45 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Mage
11670
10/27/2012 10:22 AMPosted by Sarm
Rather, I would think it would advocate a playstyle where you keep your stacks at max at all times, but use scorch as the filler. Even now, that is a near-optimal playstyle no matter what glyph you use (get 6 stacks, use missiles whenever, scorch, and only AB to make sure to keep 6 stacks up or when mana is capping).


That actually sounds pretty neat. Do you have a source for this somewhere? I tried looking a bit but came up with nothing.

I did some fairly extensive testing. First I wrote a priority list for SimCraft. That priority list, with scorch as the filler, performed pretty much the same as the proper Arcane priority list, and about 25% better on heavy movement fights. Then I tested it on target dummies, and yeah... Scorch filler is at least as good as traditional Arcane playstyle. Unless there are multiple targets, due to the cleave effect of barrage.
91 Night Elf Druid
9335
You don't play lhivera, you nitpick random sentences, you take wording like "near flawless execution" and compare it to some random math statement you've estimated on, and you constantly troll people who disagree.

You don't even play. The only place any of this discussion even matters... is INSIDE of a RAID! Yet you don't even do it, AT ALL! You have no perspective whatsoever to base any of your opinions on. No, using raiding from back in BC and Vanilla does NOT count.

People want to speak to players who have done the fights. They want to know how to DO the top dps, not just talk about it in theory. Nobody wants to have random little snips of their posts quoted and nit picked for some theoretical math inconsistency while their entire post and point gets ignored.

Good players don't even want to talk on here anymore, because somehow this random guy that spends 24/7 here trolls them constantly with theory crafting that doesn't even relate to the topic at hand... which is how these 90 talents ACTUALLY affect gameplay in real end game raiding.

Stop trolling people. Try to take some pride in your green text and maybe just do what so many have suggested you should do --> end game raiding. PLAY with it, don't just think about the game all day and post here. Actually play the game man! Try and learn why every single person here just LOATHES these talents. You simply do not understand because you haven't done any of it!

It's like disagreeing with people in the NBA how to play basketball....
Everyone has played these raids and explained to you just how frustrating these talents are. As an MVP, you continue to ignore what the community keeps talking about, and refuse to experience any of it for yourself.
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10/27/2012 10:42 AMPosted by Naishee
I did some fairly extensive testing. First I wrote a priority list for SimCraft. That priority list, with scorch as the filler, performed pretty much the same as the proper Arcane priority list, and about 25% better on heavy movement fights. Then I tested it on target dummies, and yeah... Scorch filler is at least as good as traditional Arcane playstyle. Unless there are multiple targets, due to the cleave effect of barrage.


You should push that up to the repository as an alternate profile.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
90 Undead Mage
11870
You don't play lhivera, you nitpick random sentences, you take wording like "near flawless execution" and compare it to some random math statement you've estimated on, and you constantly troll people who disagree.

You don't even play. The only place any of this discussion even matters... is INSIDE of a RAID! Yet you don't even do it, AT ALL! You have no perspective whatsoever to base any of your opinions on. No, using raiding from back in BC and Vanilla does NOT count.

People want to speak to players who have done the fights. They want to know how to DO the top dps, not just talk about it in theory. Nobody wants to have random little snips of their posts quoted and nit picked for some theoretical math inconsistency while their entire post and point gets ignored.

Good players don't even want to talk on here anymore, because somehow this random guy that spends 24/7 here trolls them constantly with theory crafting that doesn't even relate to the topic at hand... which is how these 90 talents ACTUALLY affect gameplay in real end game raiding.

Stop trolling people. Try to take some pride in your green text and maybe just do what so many have suggested you should do --> end game raiding. PLAY with it, don't just think about the game all day and post here. Actually play the game man! Try and learn why every single person here just LOATHES these talents. You simply do not understand because you haven't done any of it!

It's like disagreeing with people in the NBA how to play basketball....
Everyone has played these raids and explained to you just how frustrating these talents are. As an MVP, you continue to ignore what the community keeps talking about, and refuse to experience any of it for yourself.


First off, Lhiv has stated several times that he has more than one mage. The fact that this specific mage has no raid experience does not negate the fact that he could just as easily have 6/6h under his belt on another mage. Even if he has zero raiding experience, the fact is, he hasn't said anything incorrect in this entire thread (if he did, he corrected it later). You may not like how he is approaching this subject, but it doesn't make him wrong.

Second, Lhiv has stated that he enjoys the talents and their change to his game play. I doubt you would see a significant switch from him on this stance due to raiding. The issues with the talents are nearly as prevalent in dailies and dungeons as they are in raids. In fact, I'd go one further and say that they can be more of an frustration in a dungeon than a raid.

Third, Lhiv snips comments and defends the portion of a comment that is technically incorrect. This does not mean he is personally attacking you. I would be hard pressed to find any post of his in which I felt he was attacking the individual - even if they deserved it. You will also notice he rarely responds to posts directed at him in a light such as the one I am quoting. Good for him :) Too often on these forums, a potentially great discussion degrades into a pissing match. Inevitably, someone claims that their experience is greater than the other person's, and therefore their side of the argument is superior based solely on that fact.

When Lhiv does correct something (almost always mathy in nature :P) it is for the benefit of the community, or at least that individual. I appreciate it when he does, as I almost always learn something. I can then take this knowledge and base some of my playstyle choices on the knowledge I have.

For example, I was not aware that the difference between the three talents was as close as it is. I also did not know the required usages to get the estimated average. Knowing that RoP can be cast twice a minute, but requires you to stay in it for 50/60 seconds was new for me. I learned. This helped to influence my decision to never ever ever use RoP unless we get another Ultraxion - I don't care for the mechanics of it (as they stand) and knowing I needed that much up-time made it a deal breaker for me.

Instead of crying foul because he does not agree with you, why not give a concise list of reasons to defend your position. If you are able to formulate them in such a way that they are debatable, then perhaps you can change his mind on some things. Perhaps he will change yours.
Indeed, knowing that RoP requires 5/6 uptime is a deal killer. That's just another way of saying that it can only work on a Patchwerk style fight, really, and we all knew this. Since these fights are exceedingly rare nowadays, we're wasting on entire talent to service a hopelessly niche situation.

Blow it up, please.

And btw, making it instant cast will not massively improve this. You are still going to be wasting a lot of GCD in any sort of movement situation. Removing the reticule doesn't fix it either, that's just a QoL improvement. The idea is flatly not workable. Full stop. It's been tried elsewhere and found wanting. (Am I the only Rift veteran around here?) In order to make it attractive the restrictions on it would have to be eased to the point of watering the concept down to nothing. Let's just cut to the chase and remove it.
90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
10/27/2012 10:42 AMPosted by Naishee
I did some fairly extensive testing. First I wrote a priority list for SimCraft. That priority list, with scorch as the filler, performed pretty much the same as the proper Arcane priority list, and about 25% better on heavy movement fights. Then I tested it on target dummies, and yeah... Scorch filler is at least as good as traditional Arcane playstyle. Unless there are multiple targets, due to the cleave effect of barrage.


Interesting. I tried this on the Beta for hours, with different approaches, i never was able to close the gap, best i could do with a scorch weaving frankenrotation is 15-18% less than arcane spells only.

Even if it does equal damage or more, my opinion would be that its broken. No way the intended use of scorch was a filler for arcane, shelving AB and Abarr.
90 Pandaren Mage
15970
Regarding Invocation and nerfs, the kinds of nerfs I'd prefer to see are:

- More than a 50% regen penalty, so that we need to channel full 4-tick Evocations after 40 seconds of buff to get back to 100% mana.

- No more front-loaded Evo ticks at (0, 2, 4, 6). The front-loading makes short Evocations always better, which is unfair since short Evocation is also the easiest to use. If you have Invocation, Evo should tick at (1.5, 3, 4.5, 6). Then all lengths are fair and you're making a real decision.

Then we'd still need to spend as much time channeling, which I feel is an important part of this talent. If it gets "buffed" so we spend less time channeling, and the bonus is nerfed, it's just turning into Rune of Power. The change would still give us more freedom in choosing when to channel though. You could decide to do 3 now and 3 later, or to wait and do 6 later, depending on circumstances, procs, ICDs, whatever. I like that because it rewards planning ahead and knowing what's coming.

I don't want to spend less time channeling overall. I just didn't want to have to ask tanks for 7-second countdowns before pulls, and I wanted some freedom to decide "My buff runs out in 10 seconds, but that will be a terrible time to channel. Now is better. Why can't I plan ahead and channel now?" That's what I wanted, and this change makes it possible.

(I posted something similar in the PTR forum before I found this thread.)
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
First off, Lhiv has stated several times that he has more than one mage


Actually, I've been curious about this as he never posted this once inside my thread. If you mean in another forum, that's pretty irrelevant. You saw how many times I've mentioned his raiding experience, right?

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
The issues with the talents are nearly as prevalent in dailies and dungeons as they are in raids.


The fun is. Saying that all 3 bring roughly the same DPS on every fight is ludicrous as IW will always net much lower than Invo on Spiritbinder.

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
In fact, I'd go one further and say that they can be more of an frustration in a dungeon than a raid.


Definitely agreed there, but you don't do dungeons fully at end game. You could go into raiding without even doing a single dungeon.
Also, the DPS requirement isn't there in these dungeons, so you could essentially have 100% uptime on IW and still top meters.

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
I would be hard pressed to find any post of his in which I felt he was attacking the individual - even if they deserved it.


Saying that I was the only one who didn't know something in that other post I felt was an attack and very rude. He chose to compare on a per-tick basis, after I posted ALL the numbers and said "4 ticks" 10,000 times, but that was in another thread that you weren't involved in, so I'm sure you don't care.

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
Inevitably, someone claims that their experience is greater than the other person's, and therefore their side of the argument is superior based solely on that fact.


TBH if he could just post his raiding experience, none of us would harp on that. Fact is: You could clear dungeons with 3 people (1 DPS, 1 Tank, 1 Healer, and sometimes even less than that). Try snipping 60% of your DPS in a raid, or even 10% of your DPS (especially in Heroic) and see what happens.

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
When Lhiv does correct something (almost always mathy in nature :P) it is for the benefit of the community, or at least that individual. I appreciate it when he does, as I almost always learn something. I can then take this knowledge and base some of my playstyle choices on the knowledge I have.


Which I totally appreciate. Other than that LB vs NT thread I made, I've never theorycrafted/mathed like that before other than when I took college math courses, and having someone else do it for me is kinda nice, but sometimes, math isn't the answer.

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
For example, I was not aware that the difference between the three talents was as close as it is.


No, that's simply the math of it. As Lhiv said, the absolute maximum is a 19% difference in DPS (6% passive on IW, and 25% on Invo; can depend on fight and skill of the player). While mathwise (without calculating DPS), 19% doesn't seem like a lot, but it can be the difference between wiping and succeeding. Elegon requires burst DPS on those orbs or you're not gonna get enough. 19% extra DPS at 70k (on Elegon) is 13.3k additional DPS that you wouldn't get from IW (as you can only use IW when they explode, and it lasts ~2.5x shorter).

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
This helped to influence my decision to never ever ever use RoP unless we get another Ultraxion - I don't care for the mechanics of it (as they stand) and knowing I needed that much up-time made it a deal breaker for me.


Pretty much. RoP is garbage in its current state (another fact that makes me bring Lhiv's raiding experience into question as on these fights, besides Spiritbinder and Feng, it's next to impossible to achieve 50 out of 60 seconds.

10/27/2012 11:08 AMPosted by Howmanylichs
Instead of crying foul because he does not agree with you, why not give a concise list of reasons to defend your position. If you are able to formulate them in such a way that they are debatable, then perhaps you can change his mind on some things. Perhaps he will change yours.


If you've read everything up to this point, here's a few.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/27/2012 2:53 PM PDT
90 Orc Warrior
10290
- Warriors got (another) nice stun called Storm Bolt that does 400% damage against Stun Immune mobs (reminds me old Deep Freeze...) as well as Avatar, an awesome damage increasing cooldown ability


If you don't think Warriors need their lvl 90 talents to do viable dps I got some beachfront property in Silithus to sell you.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/27/2012 11:44 AMPosted by Deerde
And btw, making it instant cast will not massively improve this. You are still going to be wasting a lot of GCD in any sort of movement situation. Removing the reticule doesn't fix it either, that's just a QoL improvement. The idea is flatly not workable. Full stop. It's been tried elsewhere and found wanting. (Am I the only Rift veteran around here?) In order to make it attractive the restrictions on it would have to be eased to the point of watering the concept down to nothing. Let's just cut to the chase and remove it.


TBH if we could get some testing in that makes it instant, we could then conclude to this answer if it's true.

I definitely agree in its current stat that it's broken as hell, but I'd still like to test it like that. If after that it's still broken, then I'd love to see something new. It's definitely my least used ability (though TBH it's my "favorite" idea, simply the fact that it's something from Ulduar, and I freaking LOVE Ulduar, lol :) )

10/27/2012 02:57 PMPosted by Lochnar
- Warriors got (another) nice stun called Storm Bolt that does 400% damage against Stun Immune mobs (reminds me old Deep Freeze...) as well as Avatar, an awesome damage increasing cooldown ability


If you don't think Warriors need their lvl 90 talents to do viable dps I got some beachfront property in Silithus to sell you.


And if they actually do, then fine, but they're both instant (not really interested nor do I know that blood one). Does either take you 1/8th out of EVERY fight? Do you HAVE to take damage to do more damage? Are you forced to stand completely still?

See my point?
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/27/2012 2:59 PM PDT
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10/27/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
The fun is. Saying that all 3 bring roughly the same DPS on every fight is ludicrous as IW will always net much lower than Invo on Spiritbinder.


Depends what you mean by "much" and "roughly." I figure if you're within 5-6% (which you should be pretty much all of the time), that's reasonably close.

No, that's simply the math of it. As Lhiv said, the absolute maximum is a 19% difference in DPS (6% passive on IW, and 25% on Invo; can depend on fight and skill of the player). While mathwise (without calculating DPS), 19% doesn't seem like a lot, but it can be the difference between wiping and succeeding.


The differences are multiplicative, not additive, so assuming the absurd theoretical encounter that permits you to get 25% out of Invocation (rather than the much more likely maximum of about 11%), the difference would be just under 18% (1.25 / 1.06 = 1.179). Again, that's an encounter in which every single evocation happens during a period of time when you could not deal any damage even if you weren't evocating. Deviate from that imaginary situation, and that 25% starts to go down rather quickly toward the more likely maximum of 11%.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Again, that's an encounter in which every single evocation happens during a period of time when you could not deal any damage even if you weren't evocating.


On Spiritbinder specifically, I'll Invocate inside the Spirit World when there's maybe one add left and about 10s left on the clock. It will not only give me my Invocation back in the "Real" World, but it also heals me, giving me that buff that's on the fight (Forgot the name; the one that gives damage, crit, haste, and mastery), stacking it higher as well as refreshing it.

Sure, I could be attacking that one add, but since my ally is already doing that, this is technically pointless since it's time I could be using for Evocate to refresh/stack higher my buff, since he'll be killing it anyways.

As far as "pure DPS on the boss", yeah it would come out to roughly the best case scenario.
90 Undead Mage
11870
@Pewpew I personally dislike the breaking quotes up, so I hope it is ok that I reply to your post (#431 above) in a single response.

I have seen you mention Lhiv's raiding experience many times. I don't believe he feels it is relevant to the discussion. I don't think it matters either from the points he is making. He is not claiming that they are fine in raids. He's not claiming that they are all equal in every raid situation. He says the opposite in fact.

The talents can be more of a pain in a heroic. If you can't down a boss in 40 seconds you will have to evo. A longer fight like a raid allows for better planning. Also, most boss fights don't have unavoidable AoE, making IW even tougher in a dungeon imo. If you have a chain pulling tank, odds are good you'll be cursing them if you choose RoP or invo for all of the trash. As for DPS not mattering in a dungeon, you are correct, it doesn't matter. That doesn't mean my pride doesn't require me to do my absolute best on every pull. If I bring a guildy with, I try even harder. I have a reputation to maintain :) However, I understand that I am the exception, and not the rule here.

I did read that thread in which you were talking about the bombs at the time. I followed a LOT of the beta, even though I had not much to say about it. It seemed like a non-issue at the time that you had mistaken it to be 4 ticks. I still believe its a non-issue and I can't quite follow what you're driving at with this.

As I addressed above, I agree that dungeons are not cutting edge. I also understand how progression raiding is much more demanding. I still don't see how his lack of raiding makes his assessment of the talents from a mathematical standpoint wrong. I disagree with in reasoning on this, and I don't see this changing. He has said twice now that he has no desire to get into the "fun" or punishment" of the talents. A reasonable request imo.

The max difference isn't 19%, its smaller. Its roughly 11-12%, and that can only happen if a mage takes IW and keeps it on CD without ever taking damage. I am fully aware of what a difference 5% or 10% means. I play with some of the best players in the world, I truly do. I find it extremely difficult and on occasion frustrating to keep up with them. It pushes me to get better, to be better, to be as good as them. Some day, maybe I will be :)

Again Pewpew, I encourage you to list out your specific objections to the talents, not on a fight by fight basis, but in general. Keep them factual, even if you are using feelings, and we'll get some more dialog going about them. Some examples below - my opinions only - and some of it is being tested (fixed) on the PTR:

Invocation:
- Requiring someone to complete a channel is difficult. A minor lag spike at the end of your cast and you will lose the full duration of the cast and the buff.
- With such a large % modifier dangled in front of players, (25%) most players will assume that it is better to complete the channel, maintain 100% uptime, and take any avoidable damage as it is "too crippling" to their overall performance to not do so.

RoP:
- The rune is small and extremely difficult to stay in on any fight where the boss throws persistent ground aoe at a player's feet.
- The spell already makes you plant your feet. Having a cast time attached to it makes you plant your feet... so that you can plant your feet. Having it instant only serves to allow placement on the move - the disruption in casting is identical (1 GCD)

IW:
- Gambling with healer mana is always a bad idea imo. Unless you are super amazing awesome and can find something to break your shield exactly without taking any damage over the shield's cap that is. You can pair it with Ice Barrier to achieve this - but now its a 2 GCD spell instead of 1.
- There is no way to know how well you are doing in breaking your shield without mousing over the buff

All:
- The default UI is horrible for tracking any of these. Horrible! Even with a fully custom UI (I use a metric tonne of power auras) it is still difficult to track certain aspects, at times, impossible (how long ago did I place my rune?)
- There is no "You're doing great!" or any way really to track how well you are using the abilities. It has to be a gut feeling, which is then checked against a log after the fight is long over. That's not compelling gameplay to me.
90 Undead Mage
11870
10/27/2012 03:27 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Again, that's an encounter in which every single evocation happens during a period of time when you could not deal any damage even if you weren't evocating.


On Spiritbinder specifically, I'll Invocate inside the Spirit World when there's maybe one add left and about 10s left on the clock. It will not only give me my Invocation back in the "Real" World, but it also heals me, giving me that buff that's on the fight (Forgot the name; the one that gives damage, crit, haste, and mastery), stacking it higher as well as refreshing it.

Sure, I could be attacking that one add, but since my ally is already doing that, this is technically pointless since it's time I could be using for Evocate to refresh/stack higher my buff, since he'll be killing it anyways.

As far as "pure DPS on the boss", yeah it would come out to roughly the best case scenario.


Well, in that instance, if you were to take IW, you would be popping out asap to get back on the boss. That's not an example of what Lhiv is getting at. The "perfect" fight for evo looks like this:

Phase 1: boss takes 200% damage from all abilities - lasts 38 seconds
Phase 2: boss becomes immune to all damage. There are no adds. Massive AoE damage dealt to the raid for 15 seconds.

Phases repeat until boss is dead.

In that scenario, you have nothing to do but twiddle your thumbs for 15 seconds. So... you would take Invo, start your Evo with ~7 seconds left in the immune phase, finish it, and start a fireball so it lands *just* as the boss can take damage.

Anything aside from that specific example is going to have less than 100% uptime on Invo.

Incidentally...

I may be completely misinformed here, but as I understand it, the stacks occur from each individual heal. 1 heal = 1 stack. Therefore, your stacks are only dependent on the # of heals you get, and not their quantity. If this is true, RoP with the Evo glyph makes an amazing choice for that fight if you can be down in the spirit realm every other totem. It applies a heal every second, and I "believe" it persists from the real realm into the spirit realm (you don't need to re-drop it). Again, I could be grossly misinformed here, but if I am not, its something to consider.

I'll be trying it out on our next go-round with him :)
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/27/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
I have seen you mention Lhiv's raiding experience many times. I don't believe he feels it is relevant to the discussion. I don't think it matters either from the points he is making. He is not claiming that they are fine in raids. He's not claiming that they are all equal in every raid situation. He says the opposite in fact.


So what exactly is his math for now? He's just throwing numbers in our faces for no reason?

The talents can be more of a pain in a heroic. If you can't down a boss in 40 seconds you will have to evo. A longer fight like a raid allows for better planning. Also, most boss fights don't have unavoidable AoE, making IW even tougher in a dungeon imo. If you have a chain pulling tank, odds are good you'll be cursing them if you choose RoP or invo for all of the trash. As for DPS not mattering in a dungeon, you are correct, it doesn't matter. That doesn't mean my pride doesn't require me to do my absolute best on every pull. If I bring a guildy with, I try even harder. I have a reputation to maintain :) However, I understand that I am the exception, and not the rule here.


Seriously though, unless you're doing achievement/challenge modes, you can just choose no L90 talent (not even IW) and you'll still do fine because the dungeons are designed that way. Same with doing dailies or killing rares. Raids on the other hand, EVERYTHING comes down to your DPS, and in a lot of cases, your ability to burst in a specific period of time (Ragnaros, Spine, Elegon, just to name a few recent ones. There were MANY more)

10/27/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
I did read that thread in which you were talking about the bombs at the time. I followed a LOT of the beta, even though I had not much to say about it. It seemed like a non-issue at the time that you had mistaken it to be 4 ticks. I still believe its a non-issue and I can't quite follow what you're driving at with this.


That was just a way to try and get Lhiv to not bother with the nitty gritty math, even though he's supposedly using simplified math, ignoring the mechanics. The actual thread is irrelevant, it was simply bringing up the past that we both had debated in as well.

10/27/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
As I addressed above, I agree that dungeons are not cutting edge. I also understand how progression raiding is much more demanding. I still don't see how his lack of raiding makes his assessment of the talents from a mathematical standpoint wrong.


By no means does it make the absolute totals (Worst/Best case scenario being a 19% difference) any different, but it almost seems like he's shrugged it off as not an important topic. Also having 25% instead of 6% for specific burst phases (Elegon P2) is a ridiculously huge boost, and sometimes, it can be the difference between first and last. As far as the fun goes, which was the original topic (but later got split into multiple others), he chose not to get into after we dismissed his opinions as it was near unanimous against his opinion (which I've only found one other person agree with him, and I've asked a plethora of Mages).

10/27/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
The max difference isn't 19%, its smaller. Its roughly 11-12%, and that can only happen if a mage takes IW and keeps it on CD without ever taking damage. I am fully aware of what a difference 5% or 10% means. I play with some of the best players in the world, I truly do. I find it extremely difficult and on occasion frustrating to keep up with them. It pushes me to get better, to be better, to be as good as them. Some day, maybe I will be :)


That's the problem. There should never be a difference of 11-12% based purely on which L90 talent you chose. You won't be finding that on other classes, though their DPS does matter on the L90 talent (just not nearly as much as Mages [and Druids]).

10/27/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Again Pewpew, I encourage you to list out your specific objections to the talents, not on a fight by fight basis, but in general. Keep them factual, even if you are using feelings, and we'll get some more dialog going about them. Some examples below - my opinions only - and some of it is being tested (fixed) on the PTR:


*Sighs* I apologize if I let my thoughts and opinions get in the way of my objectives. My passion for the Mage class has been around since 2.4.3 and I horribly disliked how they mutilated it in Cataclysm (forcing us to play a 2 button class...) and then turned it into... well, what it is now.

However, I will add to the OP (or Post #2 if it won't fit on the OP) your list, as it's pretty spot on.

10/27/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Well, in that instance, if you were to take IW, you would be popping out asap to get back on the boss.


Actually, I would evocate to fully refresh my "healer buff" (STILL don't know what it's called!) as well as stack it higher. If I took RoP, I would probably wait a little bit longer and refresh my NT on all the adds inside.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
(Previous post hit 5k char, so here's the last reply!)

10/27/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
I may be completely misinformed here, but as I understand it, the stacks occur from each individual heal. 1 heal = 1 stack. Therefore, your stacks are only dependent on the # of heals you get, and not their quantity. If this is true, RoP with the Evo glyph makes an amazing choice for that fight if you can be down in the spirit realm every other totem. It applies a heal every second, and I "believe" it persists from the real realm into the spirit realm (you don't need to re-drop it). Again, I could be grossly misinformed here, but if I am not, its something to consider.


I've actually been told both sides (Amount of heal and # of heals). If it is amount of heal, IW > Invo > RoP. # of heals, RoP > IW > Invo. Regardless of that, IW is horrible compared to the other two because there is only random DPS, and not stuff thrown on the ground. It's a little bit better if you can somehow predict if you'll get Voodoo Doll for this week (the last 2 weeks I didn't get it once), but there's no way to do that; it's just a 100% gamble on your 6%.
90 Undead Mage
11870
@Pewpew - Having passion is not something to be sorry for :) Lhiv's responses seem to be really nagging at you though, so I will give you another way to think of them. You say to your friend, "The sky sure is a pretty blue today". That friend says "It's a bit cloudy out".

You're both right. It is a bit cloudy. The sky is a pretty blue. Cloudy doesn't "exactly" fit the discussion you wanted to have, which can be frustrating, but it doesn't make you wrong. Nor does it make your friend wrong.

*I had a lot more written, but I read through it and it didn't really add much - also, I am trying to stop myself from posting these walls o' text that I seem to be so fond of.

So, there it is :)
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