[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents

90 Orc Death Knight
8960
10/27/2012 08:09 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
but there's no way to do that; it's just a 100% gamble on your 6%.


My experience with the new fights is limited, but couldn't you use IW while in the spirit realm and let the pulsing damage break the shield, keep the buff while in normal realm, and then coast on the 6% till you can use another totem?

10/27/2012 08:07 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
So what exactly is his math for now? He's just throwing numbers in our faces for no reason?


I would say that conceptually, they are all pretty cool. Each fits something a powerful mage might use, and has it's own theme. RoP is obvious, IW could be a ruse used by the mage to lull enemies into a false sense of security by soaking some of their damage to essentially use it against them as a supercharge, and as Invocation as a recover and burn tactic.

Numbers wise in a vacuum, they are all very close in performance when used reasonably but not perfectly with 100% uptime (correct me if I am wrong).

As most have pointed out, the problem is they are all often impractical for application. Without totally putting words in Lhivera's mouth, this seems to be the stance he or she has been taking since the beta.
60 Troll Hunter
8095
Invocation change has been removed. Good job devs for killing a great change that would have improved the quality of many mage lives. Unless of course you are planning a different change then by all means ignore this statement and post something!
90 Pandaren Mage
15970
10/28/2012 12:34 AMPosted by Hezpar
Invocation change has been removed. Good job devs for killing a great change that would have improved the quality of many mage lives. Unless of course you are planning a different change then by all means ignore this statement and post something!

I don't care how they change it as long as a) I don't need to ask for 7-second countdowns before pulls, and b) there's some decision-making in when to cast Evocation that I can adapt to circumstances, instead of "always, always wait till the 40-sec buff runs out, then use it ASAP" being the only correct usage.

The buff not ticking down outside of combat might help solve the first problem.
60 Troll Hunter
8095
10/28/2012 01:17 AMPosted by Morsk
Invocation change has been removed. Good job devs for killing a great change that would have improved the quality of many mage lives. Unless of course you are planning a different change then by all means ignore this statement and post something!

I don't care how they change it as long as a) I don't need to ask for 7-second countdowns before pulls, and b) there's some decision-making in when to cast Evocation that I can adapt to circumstances, instead of "always, always wait till the 40-sec buff runs out, then use it ASAP" being the only correct usage.

The buff not ticking down outside of combat might help solve the first problem.


That's the problem. They don't plan to change it. GC said that it might stop people from evocating at all. Funny right? I don't think he knows how this ability even works and how annoying/clunky it is.
90 Pandaren Mage
15970
10/28/2012 02:49 AMPosted by Hezpar
That's the problem. They don't plan to change it. GC said that it might stop people from evocating at all. Funny right? I don't think he knows how this ability even works and how annoying/clunky it is.

I'm sure they realize how annoying it is, if they were willing to try out the 100% mana alternative at all. It just would require an awful lot of other changes: Scorch and instant Pryos shouldn't be cheap or free, Evocation shouldn't have the front-loaded tick at 0 seconds, and mana costs and/or regen would have to be tweaked so we actually need to channel 4 ticks of Evo after using 40 seconds of buff. That may be more complexity and risk than they're willing to invest in the change at this time.

It doesn't mean they have to give up entirely though. Warlocks have something called Pandemic, that gives them some choice in when to refresh a dot instead of always having to refresh at the end; something similar would work for Invocation. And there must be a dozen ways to spare us from needing to ask for 7-second countdowns. I'm desperate and will take any of them.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
@Pewpew - Having passion is not something to be sorry for :) Lhiv's responses seem to be really nagging at you though, so I will give you another way to think of them. You say to your friend, "The sky sure is a pretty blue today". That friend says "It's a bit cloudy out".


I think what nagged me the most was that he said they felt okay (basically meaning they needed zero tweaking) while everyone else was like "uh... no?". That's what drove me crazy. Not to mention, Lhiv is an MVP, so Blizzard will listen to him before us, but thankfully, there were enough of us to get their minds changed a bit.

10/27/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Foiblesqt
My experience with the new fights is limited, but couldn't you use IW while in the spirit realm and let the pulsing damage break the shield, keep the buff while in normal realm, and then coast on the 6% till you can use another totem?


Pulsing damage? If you could explain that to me, I'd love to hear it :) Maybe there's some on heroic, but we haven't touched heroics yet :(

10/27/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Foiblesqt
I would say that conceptually, they are all pretty cool. Each fits something a powerful mage might use, and has it's own theme. RoP is obvious, IW could be a ruse used by the mage to lull enemies into a false sense of security by soaking some of their damage to essentially use it against them as a supercharge, and as Invocation as a recover and burn tactic.


I actually do love the thought and design in each one, but with the current fights, they do not work. RoP forces you to sit there, something very few of the MoP fights are balanced around, IW's shield is too weak to avoid any damage (25k raid buffed), but it NEEDS to be weak to break easily. Invocation simply takes to long and with random AoE (literally every fight except spiritbinder or will, and that's ONLY MSV), you need to make the decision to drain a bit of healer mana/lose cauterize, or re-channel your Evocation. It's a BS decision that I have to make a LOT of times and it simply shouldn't be this bad of an issue.

10/27/2012 10:09 PMPosted by Foiblesqt
As most have pointed out, the problem is they are all often impractical for application. Without totally putting words in Lhivera's mouth, this seems to be the stance he or she has been taking since the beta.


Weird, I haven't seen a single post that says "they need tweaking" or "their uptimes are a little low" or "it's hard to apply them" anywhere on my thread. If that really is his stance, why is he taking the neutral/"they are fine" stance on my thread?

10/28/2012 12:34 AMPosted by Hezpar
Invocation change has been removed. Good job devs for killing a great change that would have improved the quality of many mage lives. Unless of course you are planning a different change then by all means ignore this statement and post something!


... Source please?

... Nvm, it's on his twitter. Wow. Just wow. (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/262253039073763328)

So we're back to nothing except no cooldown on RoP now? Fantastic.

I'm honestly curious if devs test other classes at all. Do THEY find these fun? Is that why they aren't being changed? I understand that the Invocation change was a bit powerful (which they could have easily justified Fire/Frost with a reduction to Mana Regen to like 20% for Fire/Frost, and kept it at 50% for Arcane), but to go back to no changes is a bit... silly.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 6:22 AM PDT
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
10/28/2012 05:50 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Weird, I haven't seen a single post that says "they need tweaking" or "their uptimes are a little low" or "it's hard to apply them" anywhere on my thread. If that really is his stance, why is he taking the neutral/"they are fine" stance on my thread?


  • I think Invocation is fine. Based on the (now-possibly-abandoned) change, Blizzard evidently wants to preserve its overall design, but tweak it to make it a little more forgiving of errors. More on that below.

  • I think Rune may be a bit undertuned, and I welcome the cooldown removal. Like many others, my gut tells me that any mechanic that hurts Invocation will hurt Rune more, making it consistently the worst choice.

    However, I am not convinced by Grizzlebees's argument that all these people in PvE specs with Rune of Power are switching to it for dailies — first because it seems unlikely to me that most people would bother switching specs for something as trivial as solo questing at all (I could be wrong, but it strikes me as silly), and second because if they did, based on commentary in the forums and personal discussions, it seems Incanter's Ward would be the more common choice. But Rune is quite popular in PvE specs if these stats are at all accurate: http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?c=8&e=pve&r=&w=&a=23&n=

    If it really is getting heavy use, then I may well be wrong about it being undertuned.

  • I think Incanter's Ward is great as-is.

  • I think a typical swing in the 2-5% range with occasional swings in the 5-10% range are just fine, given the design philosophy that they expect people to be changing talents for different situations. To be clear, I don't care for that philosophy — but just as with easy talent changes and dual specs (turn head, spit on ground), I've accepted that that's not an argument I'm going to win. So within the context of the design, those swings seem perfectly reasonable to me.

  • Finally, I think all three abilities could stand to have some visual pizazz. Invocation looks like Evocation, Incanter's Ward looks like Mana Shield, and Rune of Power isn't even visible to anyone other than the Mage. I would like to see, either built into the talents or as a minor glyph, a flashy visual effect when each talent's buff (the active buff, in the case of IW) is active. I'd love it if the effect were spec-specific.


Invocation change has been removed. Good job devs for killing a great change that would have improved the quality of many mage lives. Unless of course you are planning a different change then by all means ignore this statement and post something!


... Source please?

... Nvm, it's on his twitter. Wow. Just wow. (https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/262253039073763328)

So we're back to nothing except no cooldown on RoP now? Fantastic.


The change they described strikes me as very problematic. It threatens to make Evocating a rare event for Fire and Frost in the process of significantly buffing the talent for them, while barely changing it at all for Arcane. I don't think they could balance it without some very awkward spec-specific changes.

Many people have suggested having the buff stack with Evocation ticks, rather than becoming active at the end of the channel. That would, I think, accomplish the goal of mitigating the effects of player error. Of course, given the nature of stacking buffs, this means it would be possible to refresh the buff with a single Evocation tick, so it would probably be necessary to cancel any existing Invocation buff upon casting Evocation.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 10/28/2012 7:26 AM PDT
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
The change they described strikes me as very problematic. It threatens to make Evocating a rare event for Fire and Frost in the process of significantly buffing the talent for them, while barely changing it at all for Arcane. I don't think they could balance it without some very awkward spec-specific changes.


A suggestion I added to that discussion was that maybe we could make it 20% mana reduction down from 50%. That would definitely cause people to use Evocate a bit, or drop it even further. Keep it at 50% purely for Arcane, but drop it for Fire/Frost.

10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
Many people have suggested having the buff stack with Evocation ticks, rather than becoming active at the end of the channel. That would, I think, accomplish the goal of mitigating the effects of player error. Of course, given the nature of stacking buffs, this means it would be possible to refresh the buff with a single Evocation tick, so it would probably be necessary to cancel any existing Invocation buff upon casting Evocation.


Not really, as running away from stuff when I have 2 ticks (Assuming 16-17%) will just cause me to evocate again in 5-10 seconds when it's off cooldown for that extra 7-8% to cap it at 25%. The stacking up really wouldn't do much in the long run, unless the "cancel buff when you evocate" ONLY applied to having it at the full 25%. Then, I'd actually agree with this change.

Still, they can't do nothing to these talents. If they really want to, then allow Invocation to be cast while moving (would 100% fix the standing in bad stuff issue, which is the player error part). Tweak IW a bit. Give RoP something more than just a cooldown removal for the harsh restrictions it already brings.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 7:45 AM PDT
90 Human Mage
14525
10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
The change they described strikes me as very problematic. It threatens to make Evocating a rare event for Fire and Frost in the process of significantly buffing the talent for them, while barely changing it at all for Arcane. I don't think they could balance it without some very awkward spec-specific changes.

I just want to point out that you'd still be evocating frequently. You do run out of mana fairly quickly as fire with this talent.

Hard casting on a target dummy for fourty seconds (the duration of the buff) with 5 hot streak procs (0 mana cost) put me at 56% mana. Even with a mana gem that only puts me back to 71%.

From 56% it was four ticks of evocation before I was back at full mana. Passive mana regen is really low for all of the specs with Invocation.

I think that's what baffles people when GC says that mages would 'never evocate' if they did change the talent. Going along with statements like '7 pyros in a shatter' and 'A three second cool down on pyroblast won't effect PVE' make people think they're completely out of touch with the class.
Edited by Mumrit on 10/28/2012 8:03 AM PDT
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
10/28/2012 07:45 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
The change they described strikes me as very problematic. It threatens to make Evocating a rare event for Fire and Frost in the process of significantly buffing the talent for them, while barely changing it at all for Arcane. I don't think they could balance it without some very awkward spec-specific changes.


A suggestion I added to that discussion was that maybe we could make it 20% mana reduction down from 50%. That would definitely cause people to use Evocate a bit, or drop it even further. Keep it at 50% purely for Arcane, but drop it for Fire/Frost.


I assume you mean make it an 80% reduction (reducing it to 20%)? I dunno. The other solution seems simpler and cleaner.

10/28/2012 07:45 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Many people have suggested having the buff stack with Evocation ticks, rather than becoming active at the end of the channel. That would, I think, accomplish the goal of mitigating the effects of player error. Of course, given the nature of stacking buffs, this means it would be possible to refresh the buff with a single Evocation tick, so it would probably be necessary to cancel any existing Invocation buff upon casting Evocation.


Not really, as running away from stuff when I have 2 ticks (Assuming 16-17%) will just cause me to evocate again in 5-10 seconds when it's off cooldown for that extra 7-8% to cap it at 25%.


That would probably be a bad move. Say it stacks 6% per tick to a max of 24% (the small reduction compensating for the easier and more forgiving use). And say you screw up and have to interrupt a channel. Is it actually worth channeling for 5 seconds to increase the buff to 124%?

1 tick: 40 / 45 * 1.24 / 1.06 = 103.98% — Worth it if you only got one tick
2 ticks: 40 / 45 * 1.24 / 1.12 = 98.41% — Not worth it if you got two ticks
3 ticks: 40 / 45 * 1.24 / 1.18 = 93.41% — Very much not worth it if you got three ticks

So most of the time, you're better off with your current buff until the next time you would normally evocate.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 10/28/2012 8:03 AM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
12045
10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
I think Invocation is fine. Based on the (now-possibly-abandoned) change, Blizzard evidently wants to preserve its overall design, but tweak it to make it a little more forgiving of errors. More on that below.


I don't agree. This whole thread doesn't agree. You have not actually used this talent in a raid setting. What works best for killing some trash for a quest is not raid.

I think Rune may be a bit undertuned, and I welcome the cooldown removal. Like many others, my gut tells me that any mechanic that hurts Invocation will hurt Rune more, making it consistently the worst choice.


Simple logic would say that Rune is limited to a tiny circle while Invocation can be performed anywhere in the room. RoP is simply a bad idea that looks good on paper. If it were auto cast under the mage, say after standing still for 1 second and disappear when you moved, then it would have a chance.

10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
However, I am not convinced by Grizzlebees's argument that all these people in PvE specs with Rune of Power are switching to it for dailies


Why? I do dailies as arcane for an easier cycle. Again raid and dailies are NOT the same. You would know better once you get into some raids and see the much more hyper performance requirements.

10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
I think Incanter's Ward is great as-is.


I disagree and I think most would disagree with you. According to a recent post on MMO champions, the WoL data shows IW to be the least used by top raiders.

I think a typical swing in the 2-5% range with occasional swings in the 5-10% range are just fine, given the design philosophy that they expect people to be changing talents for different situations. To be clear, I don't care for that philosophy — but just as with easy talent changes and dual specs (turn head, spit on ground), I've accepted that that's not an argument I'm going to win. So within the context of the design, those swings seem perfectly reasonable to me.


We agree. The whole point of the new talent trees, a ritual that GC is addicted to and no one else has ever applauded as a necessity, was to remove the cookie cuter Mage specs. Well, it failed on it's face every time he tried it. The choice was never a choice. So they make each fight so different and the talents so intentionally limiting that we have to change. Irony here is that we switch from one cookie cutter spec to another cookie cutter spec. Fail.

10/28/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Lhivera
Finally, I think all three abilities could stand to have some visual pizazz. Invocation looks like Evocation, Incanter's Ward looks like Mana Shield, and Rune of Power isn't even visible to anyone other than the Mage.


Put any visual you want on it. Invocation is bandaging for 5 seconds for a buff.

I agree with you that the proposed changes are problematic. I don't think a tweek to RoP or Invocation is going to do it. I had credited Blizz with being too busy to develop a substantial change...but then I see a new AOE for warlocks is coming in 5.1 -- a new AOE for a class with 3 AOE's.

(I typo -> I fix typo)
Edited by Fuzzywashere on 10/28/2012 8:20 AM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
12045
10/28/2012 07:45 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
A suggestion I added to that discussion was that maybe we could make it 20% mana reduction down from 50%. That would definitely cause people to use Evocate a bit, or drop it even further. Keep it at 50% purely for Arcane, but drop it for Fire/Frost.


PewPew! Man, you don't mean this! More evo is not the answer - come back to the light!

The proposed idea from blizz is a knee jerk solution at best. It is the wrong solution and we all know it. It needs to be tossed before it becomes live and they walk away feeling satisfied that they took care of the problem. A bad design when tweeked is still a bad design. It will cause its own problems and we will be patched to death. Remember ignite munching?
90 Undead Mage
5330
I really think they should leave everything as is for the current, and start working on a complete overhaul for all 3.

Dont bandaid us this entire expansion. The talents may be balanced, but no mage wants them, and they are clunky to use. They dont fit the mage playstyle at all imo.

Nobody wants to channel a spell that just gives a buff for 1/8th of the fight.
Nobody wants to have to recast RoP every 20 seconds or less.
IW is really just a no-skill talent. Wait untill the raid is about to take damage, pop it for a buff.

I think alot of classes have bad lvl 90 talents and they just need to scrap em. I dont want band-aids every other patch.

edit: Proposed New RoP
Whenever you are standing still for 3 seconds the RoP autocasts underneath you and stays untill you move more than 3 yards. Once you move 3 yards, it goes away, and then it will recast it once you have stood still for 3 seconds again.

idk what to do with the other talents, they suck
Edited by Oham on 10/28/2012 8:26 AM PDT
90 Draenei Mage
7935

I think that's what baffles people when GC says that mages would 'never evocate' if they did change the talent. Going along with statements like '7 pyros in a shatter' and 'A three second cool down on pyroblast won't effect PVE' make people think they're completely out of touch with the class.


That's pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. As I posted before, the devs are out of touch with the class and the community entirely, and are posting comments that don't even make any sense.

And there's no excuse for not having time to revamp the talents entirely either.
They conveniently have time to create a whole new "Water Jet" spell for what was a minor Frost qol issue, and a brand new AOE for Warlocks, yet they can't give any serious attention to the talents that Mages have been tortured over since beta?

Frankly guys, I've already cancelled my account. As petty as that sounds to announce, I've just been very unhappy with Mages and the entire expac. Between my deep displeasure with the class talents, to forced dailies and rep grind to spend valor, it's just not my type of game anymore. Enough is enough. Good luck to the rest of you, perhaps some better changes will come next expansion.
90 Undead Mage
5330

I think that's what baffles people when GC says that mages would 'never evocate' if they did change the talent. Going along with statements like '7 pyros in a shatter' and 'A three second cool down on pyroblast won't effect PVE' make people think they're completely out of touch with the class.


That's pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. As I posted before, the devs are out of touch with the class and the community entirely, and are posting comments that don't even make any sense.

And there's no excuse for not having time to revamp the talents entirely either.
They conveniently have time to create a whole new "Water Jet" spell for what was a minor Frost qol issue, and a brand new AOE for Warlocks, yet they can't give any serious attention to the talents that Mages have been tortured over since beta?

Frankly guys, I've already cancelled my account. As petty as that sounds to announce, I've just been very unhappy with Mages and the entire expac. Between my deep displeasure with the class talents, to forced dailies and rep grind to spend valor, it's just not my type of game anymore. Enough is enough. Good luck to the rest of you, perhaps some better changes will come next expansion.


I dont understand why so many mages are saying some of these things.

The talents are !@#$ty, ill give you that. but nobody is forcing rep grinds or forcing dailies on people. And they are even lowering the rep grinds next patch.
Way too many people think optional things are mandatory. They aren't. And please dont complain about those types of things here. This is a thread to try and get our lvl 90 talents fixed, not a thread for you to complain that you hate dailies that are optional.
90 Human Mage
15160
Howmanylichs brings up a fantastic point on these talents, none of them visually show the mage "poor" "good" "average" "great" "awesome" usage. Nor do I believe this is easily accomplished (via code). To me, that "shouts from the rooftops" how poorly these talents were designed when it comes to player enjoyment.

I am not surprised they are potentially changing course on Invocation, one could see how that would require a nerf in some shape and that it would create a new play style for Arcane that was not intended.

My current Invocation thoughts;

Peg the 25% buff active at 100% mana while not in combat. This would allow mages who take Invocation to start fights with buff while preventing them from leveraging the buff via jumping back to 100% mana.

At the same time, allow the channel to be cast while moving. This addresses RNG raid mechanics that dump BAD on your location while you are channelling.

RoP - I will leave to others as I will never touch this one unless another Ultrxion type encounter is introduced.

IW - give it a mechanic similar to monk roll, 1st time you use it activates the 30% buff, then throw it on 3 charges, every 25 seconds that pass a charge drops. After 75 seconds, you can activate it for instant 30% again. During charge cooldown, talent functions as normal, aka you need to find some damage to activate it.

That would allow usage during encounters w/o damage or w/o having to stand in bad. Picked 75 seconds as that is what Lhiv has it mathed at for good usage.
Sorry to hear that, Mivva, best wishes.

Oham, at the level of raiding Mivva is at, the dailies are not optional. That's just the way it is for hardcore progression.
edit: Proposed New RoP
Whenever you are standing still for 3 seconds the RoP autocasts underneath you and stays untill you move more than 3 yards. Once you move 3 yards, it goes away, and then it will recast it once you have stood still for 3 seconds again.

idk what to do with the other talents, they suck

Maybe 5yrd leash... but this is the kind of thing that would make me play my mage again. You're rewarded for standing in a spot where you wont need to move (aka knowing the fight) but you aren't required to do some bull***t maintenancey thing every X seconds during the fight like you are on live.

IW would be more user-friendly if the passive was higher, the "shield break" was lower, and the passive didn't stop working while on CD. Fill in those numbers with whatever you like to balance it against the other talents and other classes, but those are the changes that'd make it worth using.

Invocation:
No one wants to spend 1/8th of the fight channeling a buff spell. Reduce the cast time, increase the buff duration, whatever. Change buff % to balance it and roll on.

There ya go Bliz, me and Oham just solved your lvl 90 talent problem for you. I'll take payment in the form of free game time tyvm.
90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
10/28/2012 09:14 AMPosted by Oham
This is a thread to try and get our lvl 90 talents fixed, not a thread for you to complain that you hate dailies that are optional.


Chill out Bro. Mivv has about a hundred posts going back to the beginning of beta, rallying against these talents, from analysis to possible fixes, without one blue response.

To you i say welcome to the party, but many of us have been posting about this crap for 8 months now, without a response from blizz. In fact we have been discussing many thing besides these talents without a blue response, ever, no addition to the discussion, no explanations, nothing.
90 Undead Mage
5330
Sorry to hear that, Mivva, best wishes.

Oham, at the level of raiding Mivva is at, the dailies are not optional. That's just the way it is for hardcore progression.


I understand the level of raiding she was at. And i have been a hardcore progression oriented raider in the past. Still doesn't mean Mivva shoudl come into a thread trying to fix 'mobility and lvl90 talents' and complain about feeling forced to do manadatory things. There are numerous threads about that already. Im not saying i agree or disagree with him/her, im in the middle actually. But we dont need that QQ here.

@Sattyn, 5 yard leash may be better, i was just throwing a random idea out there. I do think it would fix RoP. Im lost on evo and iw changes though. Thats why im for scrapping them and starting over fresh. Can't fix the original idea? Get a new idea imo
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