[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents

MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
10/28/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Sattyn
IW would be more user-friendly if the passive was higher, the "shield break" was lower, and the passive didn't stop working while on CD.


Even if you did only one of those things -- making the passive higher -- a player with IW could take the spell off his bar, run on nothing but the passive, and match the expected benefit of either of the other two talents. Only exceptional players using Rune or Invocation exceptionally well would do better than a player who took IW and did nothing whatsoever. Do you really think that's OK?
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
90 Undead Mage
11870
Invocation: Reduces the cooldown of Evocation to 10 seconds, but you passively regenerate 50% less mana. Each tick of Evocation causes you to deal 25% increased spell damage for 10 sec. Stacking up to a maximum of 40 seconds. The 25% spell damage starts at 40 seconds when entering combat. Invisibility no longer removes the mage from combat.

Rune of Power: Places a Rune of Power directly under the mage, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 100% and you gain 25 stacks of Runic Power (name to be w/e).

Each stack of Runic Power increases your spell damage by 1%. For each 5 seconds spent on your rune of Power, 2 charges are removed. Recasting Rune of Power resets the stacks to the maximum.

Incanter's Ward: Places a magical ward on you, absorbing up to X (X is now about 2x what it is on live) damage for 16 sec. Absorbed damage will restore up to 18% of your maximum mana.

When this effect ends, you gain up to 30% increased spell damage for 15 sec, based on the absorption used.

Hitting Incanter's Ward while the shield is active will cancel the shield. If cancelled early by the mage, you will gain 10% increased spell power for the duration of the CD.

Passive:
Increases spell damage by 6% and increases mana regeneration by 65%. This effect is deactivated while Incanter's Ward is on cooldown. If the spell is cancelled early by the mage, the mana regeneration increase is not deactivated.

All of the numbers above are approximated by my very tired brain. Someone good at mathy stuff (*looks at Lhiv*) would need to adjust them to make them "reasonably close". :)
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Mumrit
I think that's what baffles people when GC says that mages would 'never evocate' if they did change the talent. Going along with statements like '7 pyros in a shatter' and 'A three second cool down on pyroblast won't effect PVE' make people think they're completely out of touch with the class.


I think it's funnier how he randomly decided this without a SINGLE DAY of testing. I guess the public TEST realm is no longer used for TESTING.

I assume you mean make it an 80% reduction (reducing it to 20%)? I dunno. The other solution seems simpler and cleaner.


*Coughs* Yes, I did mean that. Remember that part I said how my brain likes to be stupid?

10/28/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Fuzzywashere
Simple logic would say that Rune is limited to a tiny circle while Invocation can be performed anywhere in the room. RoP is simply a bad idea that looks good on paper. If it were auto cast under the mage, say after standing still for 1 second and disappear when you moved, then it would have a chance.


If it was like Sniper Training, I would consider using it tbh.

10/28/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Fuzzywashere
We agree. The whole point of the new talent trees, a ritual that GC is addicted to and no one else has ever applauded as a necessity, was to remove the cookie cuter Mage specs. Well, it failed on it's face every time he tried it. The choice was never a choice. So they make each fight so different and the talents so intentionally limiting that we have to change. Irony here is that we switch from one cookie cutter spec to another cookie cutter spec. Fail.


Agreed. Invocation simply wins, plain and simple. Feng would be the only exception where IW might actually win over it.

PewPew! Man, you don't mean this! More evo is not the answer - come back to the light!

The proposed idea from blizz is a knee jerk solution at best. It is the wrong solution and we all know it. It needs to be tossed before it becomes live and they walk away feeling satisfied that they took care of the problem. A bad design when tweeked is still a bad design. It will cause its own problems and we will be patched to death. Remember ignite munching?


Oh don't get me wrong, they need to do away with this entire tier and give us a fun spell like Priests/Paladins, but if they at least kept the current PTR change and dropped Regen for Fire/Frost by 80%, it actually would be a buff due to mechanics. You could use Mana Gem to boost you every 2m and you could evocate early WHENEVER YOU WANTED to get your mana back to 100%. It simply allows you to clip the duration without a penalty (lost duration) because it also increases your mana back. While my proposed suggestion there isn't great, it would be a huge QoL booster than live while still keeping evocation at roughly the same/more level; you just wouldn't have to channel for the full duration anymore, without the "ticking" garbage.

I really think they should leave everything as is for the current, and start working on a complete overhaul for all 3.

Dont bandaid us this entire expansion. The talents may be balanced, but no mage wants them, and they are clunky to use. They dont fit the mage playstyle at all imo.


While I agree with that, if they don't fix us by 5.1, then I'm out. After Cataclysm being a complete failure in terms of raid content AND forcing Mages into being Arcane for 99% of Pre-DS and 1 fight on DS, I refuse to continue being this gimped class that's forced to play a boring/bad/clunky playstyle, and I'm willing to bet others are feeling the same way.

That's pretty much the nail in the coffin for me. As I posted before, the devs are out of touch with the class and the community entirely, and are posting comments that don't even make any sense.

And there's no excuse for not having time to revamp the talents entirely either.
They conveniently have time to create a whole new "Water Jet" spell for what was a minor Frost qol issue, and a brand new AOE for Warlocks, yet they can't give any serious attention to the talents that Mages have been tortured over since beta?


This is also what I don't get. The fact that they're not willing to try it is what's killing everything for me, but they can invest time in issues that aren't nearly as big of an issue. "Lets ignore the biggest issue mages have, and give Frost an ability that won't change their playstyle, like, at all"
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Peg the 25% buff active at 100% mana while not in combat. This would allow mages who take Invocation to start fights with buff while preventing them from leveraging the buff via jumping back to 100% mana.

At the same time, allow the channel to be cast while moving. This addresses RNG raid mechanics that dump BAD on your location while you are channelling.


Holy crap. I didn't even think about this (The first part about OoC)... Please post it to GC's twitter!

I'll also be updating the OP #2 with your post.

10/28/2012 10:13 AMPosted by Lhivera
Even if you did only one of those things -- making the passive higher -- a player with IW could take the spell off his bar, run on nothing but the passive, and match the expected benefit of either of the other two talents. Only exceptional players using Rune or Invocation exceptionally well would do better than a player who took IW and did nothing whatsoever. Do you really think that's OK?


TBH yes, because it only gives you a 7-8% passive compared to a 25% "active-passive". Which seems better for a fight that REQUIRES burst, Lhiv? Even if the 7-8 passive gives you the exact same overall damage, the 25% "active-passive" is way better for fights like Elegon or Spine of DW. Thousands of Mages went Arcane on Spine purely for the burst even though the overall damage was roughly the same as Fire. See my point?

Invocation: Reduces the cooldown of Evocation to 10 seconds, but you passively regenerate 50% less mana. Each tick of Evocation causes you to deal 25% increased spell damage for 10 sec. Stacking up to a maximum of 40 seconds. The 25% spell damage starts at 40 seconds when entering combat. Invisibility no longer removes the mage from combat.


Remove that last sentence as Invisibility already doesn't do this unless you're the only player left in the raid alive. Also, change it to "this buff is passively active when out of combat" so your first spell cast counts. I'll definitely upvote this suggestion if you put in those two changes.

Rune of Power: Places a Rune of Power directly under the mage, which lasts for 1 min. While standing in your own Rune of Power, your mana regeneration is increased by 100% and you gain 25 stacks of Runic Power (name to be w/e).

Each stack of Runic Power increases your spell damage by 1%. For each 5 seconds spent on your rune of Power, 2 charges are removed. Recasting Rune of Power resets the stacks to the maximum.


Hmm... Interesting... though I'd drop the stacks to 15-20. 25 is way too high.

Incanter's Ward: Places a magical ward on you, absorbing up to X (X is now about 2x what it is on live) damage for 16 sec. Absorbed damage will restore up to 18% of your maximum mana. When this effect ends, you gain up to 30% increased spell damage for 15 sec, based on the absorption used. Hitting Incanter's Ward while the shield is active will cancel the shield. If cancelled early by the mage, you will gain 10% increased spell power for the duration of the CD.

Passive:
Increases spell damage by 6% and increases mana regeneration by 65%. This effect is deactivated while Incanter's Ward is on cooldown. If the spell is cancelled early by the mage, the mana regeneration increase is not deactivated.


Change the "2x" thing, as we want it lower, not higher. I like the 2x duration though. Also, what's the point of canceling it early? This also won't increase the QoL at ALL, and I don't really get the point of this suggestion.

However, I will update the OP with your list. Please take into consideration these opinions.
90 Orc Death Knight
8960
10/28/2012 11:15 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
If it was like Sniper Training, I would consider using it tbh.


A sniper training clone would be basically passive. Sure there is a little to gain in timing the buff but otherwise we spend pretty much all our time standing still. If you don't have to move, there is no reason to, so that change would make RoP incredibly fire and forget.
60 Troll Hunter
8095
It's funny that they never even allowed us to test this change on the PTR. They just simply never pushed it. I will never understand the stupidity of these devs.
100 Goblin Mage
21280
Peg the 25% buff active at 100% mana while not in combat. This would allow mages who take Invocation to start fights with buff while preventing them from leveraging the buff via jumping back to 100% mana.

At the same time, allow the channel to be cast while moving. This addresses RNG raid mechanics that dump BAD on your location while you are channelling.


We have a winner here. That would fix all my gripes with it. It keeps the essence of the talent, and fixes the annoying/overly punishing aspects of it.

If someone still dislikes being disabled for 5ish seconds after this, honestly, choose an other talent... after, of course, we make sure those other talents get their usability improved as well.
Edited by Seedee on 10/28/2012 11:57 AM PDT
60 Troll Hunter
8095
Moving while casting is honestly the best change and that we don't have to actually precast it every fight? Yes please.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 11:40 AMPosted by Hezpar
It's funny that they never even allowed us to test this change on the PTR. They just simply never pushed it. I will never understand the stupidity of these devs.


That's how I feel. I cannot grasp their logic any longer.

10/28/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Hezpar
Moving while casting is honestly the best change and that we don't have to actually precast it every fight? Yes please.


Pretty much. This would fix some issues. While being taken out of the fight for 1/8th of it, being able to move out of bad and not having to precast it at the start would fix two of three issues.
60 Undead Rogue
8075
10/28/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
It's funny that they never even allowed us to test this change on the PTR. They just simply never pushed it. I will never understand the stupidity of these devs.


That's how I feel. I cannot grasp their logic any longer.

Moving while casting is honestly the best change and that we don't have to actually precast it every fight? Yes please.


Pretty much. This would fix some issues. While being taken out of the fight for 1/8th of it, being able to move out of bad and not having to precast it at the start would fix two of three issues.


Remind me again what is the third issue? (I probably missed the post on this)

Also, I like how a QoL change appears before us and Lhivera is the first to that it is bad and then the devs immediately agree and pull it out. I guess Lhiv really does represent 100% of the mages in the game.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Remind me again what is the third issue? (I probably missed the post on this)

Also, I like how a QoL change appears before us and Lhivera is the first to that it is bad and then the devs immediately agree and pull it out. I guess Lhiv really does represent 100% of the mages in the game.


The third issue being 1/8th out of every single fight. That's a pretty big issue, but at the very least, being allowed to move while channeling would fix the "pro/con" situational thinking, and allowing us to have it 40s off the bat fixes the communication issue between tanks/pulling and us.

It's kinda BS how they pulled it without a single second of testing it. WHAT THE HELL IS THE WORST THAT COULD HAPPEN IN THE PTRS?! WE'RE OP FOR FAKE SERVERS?! OH NO. REMEMBER THE 1M COMBUSTION DAMAGE!?

Seriously, you guys have no idea how furious I am at GC for not even allowing us to test it. Dropping our Mana Regen (Non-Arcane speccs) as a tradeoff would have fixed everything. Not being FORCED to do a 4.5-5s channel to refresh it would fix everything. If there was a moment when you could use Evocation and cap your mana back up (or when you had high mana just to do a tick to get the buff back) would have been a ridiculously huge QoL booster.

Also, I like how they give hunters 100% mobility and say "we may revert this change if they move too much", but when it comes to Mages, they make the assumption that we won't evocate enough, and just remove it, RATHER THAN ALLOWING US TO TEST SOMETHING ON THE _TEST_ SERVERS!

Ghostcrawler, you've lost so much of my respect for this.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 12:18 PM PDT
60 Undead Rogue
8075
Yeah, it seems the devs have some great hatred for the mages right now. Rather sad, I really like the class now that RNG was fixed for fire.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 12:17 PMPosted by Metuo
Yeah, it seems the devs have some great hatred for the mages right now. Rather sad, I really like the class now that RNG was fixed for fire.


Well GC went Warrior as of the Beta. I've defended him for quite awhile when he played Mage, saying that the rumors that he only buffs his class was ridiuclous.

Now that we're being crapped on AND receiving PvP nerfs while Warrior remains untouched completely shatters any and all rumors, turning them into near-facts at this point.

Granted, this doesn't really have much to do with the thread, I just felt like saying it.

Also, the biggest middle finger is giving us hope with that invocation change then removing it.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 12:22 PM PDT
60 Undead Rogue
8075
I'm still with hope that they will change something for 5.1 and not make us wait 3-4 months.

And also, HOLY CRAP 24 PAGES OF POSTS ON THIS ISSUE AND THEN THEY MAKE A CHANGE AND THEN SCRAP IT????????????
Edited by Metuo on 10/28/2012 12:23 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Mage
15970
10/28/2012 09:28 AMPosted by Silvermage
Peg the 25% buff active at 100% mana while not in combat. This would allow mages who take Invocation to start fights with buff while preventing them from leveraging the buff via jumping back to 100% mana.

Overpowered on trash, which actually matters in Challenge Modes. The most conservative suggestion I have is a 5-min CD, only out of combat, that gives 40 secs of Invoker's Energy. 5-mins CDs reset on boss wipes, so it's enough to solve the raid boss problem, without giving everyone 100% uptime on 5-man trash.

At the same time, allow the channel to be cast while moving. This addresses RNG raid mechanics that dump BAD on your location while you are channelling.

The problem is then we could just cast Evocation as filler whenever we had to move for a while anyway. "Evo while moving" may seem fair, at first, if you think of starting your Evo and being hit but truly unavoidable mechanics like those on Stone Guards. Surely it's fair to be able to move then! But it would also let you do Evo while moving all the rest of the time too, and that's too good.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 12:22 PMPosted by Metuo
I'm still with hope that they will change something for 5.1 and not make us wait 3-4 months.


I am... somewhat, but not really. I hope they realize the danger that their Mage customers are in of quitting.

I don't want to quit, but I don't want to play another class. I refuse to go through this BS for another patch.
60 Undead Rogue
8075
10/28/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Morsk
Peg the 25% buff active at 100% mana while not in combat. This would allow mages who take Invocation to start fights with buff while preventing them from leveraging the buff via jumping back to 100% mana.

Overpowered on trash, which actually matters in Challenge Modes. The most conservative suggestion I have is a 5-min CD, only out of combat, that gives 40 secs of Invoker's Energy. 5-mins CDs reset on boss wipes, so it's enough to solve the raid boss problem, without giving everyone 100% uptime on 5-man trash.

At the same time, allow the channel to be cast while moving. This addresses RNG raid mechanics that dump BAD on your location while you are channelling.

The problem is then we could just cast Evocation as filler whenever we had to move for a while anyway. "Evo while moving" may seem fair, at first, if you think of starting your Evo and being hit but truly unavoidable mechanics like those on Stone Guards. Surely it's fair to be able to move then! But it would also let you do Evo while moving all the rest of the time too, and that's too good.


It's not too good. It's a great change. Moving while casting still penalizes you as you are not DPSing while doing so (even if it is lower than just standing still). What would you suggest on improving it then? How will you fix the clunky RNG mechanic of raid encounters? And also as for the challenge modes, you usually chain pull in challenge modes so you are not consistently at full mana and you will still need to evocate to get to full mana.
60 Undead Rogue
8075

Furthermore, Lhiv, your priorities lack objectivity for the good of the game. Being able to number crunch necessarily does not lead to good balance. Please reevaluate your positions, understanding your small town POV of how mages should operate is unhealthy for global mage balance, leading up to and beyond game balance.


I think this belongs here too.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 12:22 PMPosted by Metuo
And also, HOLY CRAP 24 PAGES OF POSTS ON THIS ISSUE AND THEN THEY MAKE A CHANGE AND THEN SCRAP IT????????????


Yeah, kinda funny, don'tcha think?


Furthermore, Lhiv, your priorities lack objectivity for the good of the game. Being able to number crunch necessarily does not lead to good balance. Please reevaluate your positions, understanding your small town POV of how mages should operate is unhealthy for global mage balance, leading up to and beyond game balance.


I think this belongs here too.


I concur. Numbers are doing nothing but enraging the rest of us.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
10/28/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Yeah, it seems the devs have some great hatred for the mages right now. Rather sad, I really like the class now that RNG was fixed for fire.


Well GC went Warrior as of the Beta. I've defended him for quite awhile when he played Mage, saying that the rumors that he only buffs his class was ridiuclous.


GC's been a Warrior for quite a while. I don't know that he's ever mained a Mage, actually (if devs even have mains in the same sense that the rest of us do).
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]