[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents

10/28/2012 12:23 PMPosted by Morsk
Peg the 25% buff active at 100% mana while not in combat. This would allow mages who take Invocation to start fights with buff while preventing them from leveraging the buff via jumping back to 100% mana.

Overpowered on trash, which actually matters in Challenge Modes. The most conservative suggestion I have is a 5-min CD, only out of combat, that gives 40 secs of Invoker's Energy. 5-mins CDs reset on boss wipes, so it's enough to solve the raid boss problem, without giving everyone 100% uptime on 5-man trash.

At the same time, allow the channel to be cast while moving. This addresses RNG raid mechanics that dump BAD on your location while you are channelling.

The problem is then we could just cast Evocation as filler whenever we had to move for a while anyway. "Evo while moving" may seem fair, at first, if you think of starting your Evo and being hit but truly unavoidable mechanics like those on Stone Guards. Surely it's fair to be able to move then! But it would also let you do Evo while moving all the rest of the time too, and that's too good.


Morsk, you are mistaken on 5 man. If I am running a normal, heroic or challenge, after the first trash drops me from combat, where is my mana bar? It is not at 100%, if I wanted to refresh the buff then I would need to Evocate to do so.

When doing dailies or solo grinding, I am already making the decision to evocate before every other pull, it would change nothing there.

On the while moving, while someone is evocating for the buff (why else would we evocate in a group environment) they are doing exactly ZERO DPS. All allowing it to be channeled while moving does is let the mage move out of RNG bad w/o being hit with a potential 15 second penalty due to RNG bad on your location.

Neither are OP, and it still leaves the mage evocating every 45 seconds after an encounter begins.
60 Undead Rogue
8075
10/28/2012 01:44 PMPosted by Silvermage

Overpowered on trash, which actually matters in Challenge Modes. The most conservative suggestion I have is a 5-min CD, only out of combat, that gives 40 secs of Invoker's Energy. 5-mins CDs reset on boss wipes, so it's enough to solve the raid boss problem, without giving everyone 100% uptime on 5-man trash.


The problem is then we could just cast Evocation as filler whenever we had to move for a while anyway. "Evo while moving" may seem fair, at first, if you think of starting your Evo and being hit but truly unavoidable mechanics like those on Stone Guards. Surely it's fair to be able to move then! But it would also let you do Evo while moving all the rest of the time too, and that's too good.


Morsk, you are mistaken on 5 man. If I am running a normal, heroic or challenge, after the first trash drops me from combat, where is my mana bar? It is not at 100%, if I wanted to refresh the buff then I would need to Evocate to do so.

When doing dailies or solo grinding, I am already making the decision to evocate before every other pull, it would change nothing there.

On the while moving, while someone is evocating for the buff (why else would we evocate in a group environment) they are doing exactly ZERO DPS. All allowing it to be channeled while moving does is let the mage move out of RNG bad w/o being hit with a potential 15 second penalty due to RNG bad on your location.

Neither are OP, and it still leaves the mage evocating every 45 seconds after an encounter begins.


This for truth
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 01:44 PMPosted by Silvermage

Overpowered on trash, which actually matters in Challenge Modes. The most conservative suggestion I have is a 5-min CD, only out of combat, that gives 40 secs of Invoker's Energy. 5-mins CDs reset on boss wipes, so it's enough to solve the raid boss problem, without giving everyone 100% uptime on 5-man trash.


The problem is then we could just cast Evocation as filler whenever we had to move for a while anyway. "Evo while moving" may seem fair, at first, if you think of starting your Evo and being hit but truly unavoidable mechanics like those on Stone Guards. Surely it's fair to be able to move then! But it would also let you do Evo while moving all the rest of the time too, and that's too good.


Morsk, you are mistaken on 5 man. If I am running a normal, heroic or challenge, after the first trash drops me from combat, where is my mana bar? It is not at 100%, if I wanted to refresh the buff then I would need to Evocate to do so.

When doing dailies or solo grinding, I am already making the decision to evocate before every other pull, it would change nothing there.

On the while moving, while someone is evocating for the buff (why else would we evocate in a group environment) they are doing exactly ZERO DPS. All allowing it to be channeled while moving does is let the mage move out of RNG bad w/o being hit with a potential 15 second penalty due to RNG bad on your location.

Neither are OP, and it still leaves the mage evocating every 45 seconds after an encounter begins.


If people are going to be using Evocation every time they move, they obviously don't use their L15 talent, or know their own class mechanics (stuff you can do while moving: L15 talent, Arcane Barrage, Refresh NT/LB, use a procc like Hot Streak, Fingers of Frost, or Brain Freeze, use Pet Freeze to get a FoF to throw an Ice Lance)

Allowing Evocation to be mobile will not be OP by ANY means. Even in PvP, you'll still get interrupted/silenced by a ranged AoE/CC.
90 Goblin Mage
9540
Yea I gotta say I feel really gimped on challenge modes. Incovation makes me move slowly, rune of power is awful for difficult pve, and IW doesn't provide the necessary consistent buffs required of you to get a good time.
90 Undead Mage
11870
To clarify my earlier post and the reasoning behind it:

Invocation: Changed to duration per tick, allowing you decide how much of the buff you want. If you need 10 seconds, you hit it once (while moving I might add, as the first tick would go off). It penalizes poor latency much less and encourages decision making - do I go for 2 ticks now and do it again in 20 seconds? Do I complete the whole thing? It also allows you to move when bad gets dropped on you without losing the entire thing. If Invis doesn't pull you out of combat when others are alive, then that can be removed - I wanted to avoid "Invis on CD" to buff your dps.

RoP: Would keep its cast time. The stacks allow you to see how well you are doing standing on it. It would be limited to one rune. You can choose when to recast it, resetting the stacks to max, but its still going to cost you a global each time - a trade off. The 25 stacks were an attempt to balance around the 11% - 2 runes per minute, 50/60 seconds up-time. I *think* this works out - but as I said, the stacks can be adjusted as needed.

IW: Doubling the shield and the time allows for more leniency when using the defensive manner of the talent. In raiding, there is very little that only does 20k damage, and therefore, we end up pressuring the healers to buff our dps. The ability to cancel it early yields a buff, but not one as big as breaking the shield. It becomes better than never using it, but not as good as being able to break the shield. Basically, it allows you to "use" IW on a fight without predictable damage. This would have PvP consequences I'm sure - but then again, fire got a PvE nerf for pvp reasons (which... didn't solve the issue anyways) so idk if this would be huge or not.

I wanted to get this in before we capped the thread.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
Invocation: Changed to duration per tick, allowing you decide how much of the buff you want. If you need 10 seconds, you hit it once (while moving I might add, as the first tick would go off)


You need to be completely stopped before even getting to get the instant part. Also, if you got 2 ticks, used 10s of the buff, then got another 3 ticks, would you be at 40 since you had the leftover 10+30 or would the 10 go away? Also, it needs to not tick down while you're channeling, because that's 4-5s wasted when you're fully done. (Or maybe increase it to 45s maximum, and the first or last tick gives 15s, just to offset that)

10/28/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
If Invis doesn't pull you out of combat when others are alive, then that can be removed - I wanted to avoid "Invis on CD" to buff your dps.


Oh for sure and I knew exactly why you tacked that on. It USED to do that (back in BC), but it no longer does that unless you're the last one alive. It works just like Feign Death (from Hunters).

10/28/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
I wanted to get this in before we capped the thread.


I'll be making a Part 2, don't you worry.

Also, either your Invo change or make it mobile. One of those two would make it perfect... maybe.

Provided you can also 3 ticks when you already have 10s and cap it at 40 (or 45 with my added suggestion for a bonus 5 due to full channeling penalties)
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 2:38 PM PDT
10/28/2012 10:13 AMPosted by Lhivera
Even if you did only one of those things -- making the passive higher -- a player with IW could take the spell off his bar, run on nothing but the passive, and match the expected benefit of either of the other two talents. Only exceptional players using Rune or Invocation exceptionally well would do better than a player who took IW and did nothing whatsoever. Do you really think that's OK?

I think that's ideal, yes.
Further, I'll demonstrate that it's in-line with Blizzard's design intent when you compare it to the Shaman lvl 90 talents.

In that tree, there are two 'active' choices which add a spell to your rotation. There is also one 'passive' choice that simply buffs a CD you were going to use during the fight anyway. All three options are viable, with the 'active' choices pulling slightly ahead when executed well.

On my Ele Shaman I feel like I have a legitimate choice. I can play the class as I did from 1-89 and get my lvl 90 passive damage boost, OR I can add an interesting new spell to the rotation to spice things up and potentially pump out another 1% or 2% damage if I do it right. Different Shaman prefer different talents and can use whatever they like.

That isn't possible with the Mage because Invocation and RoP are annoying as hell to use. If the IW passive were within 1/2% of the other talents (like with the Shaman passive) EVERYONE would take it because Invocation and RoP are NOT FUN TO USE. Of course, the Devs don't want everyone to take the same talent, so they make IW un-fun too (only viable with on-use). This results in every Mage using different talents, without anyone actually enjoying any of them.

But since the design goal is met (Mages using different talents) they think everything is just fine.
Of course, the Devs don't want everyone to take the same talent, so they make IW un-fun too (only viable with on-use). This results in every Mage using different talents, without anyone actually enjoying any of them.

Of course, this is without taking into account PvP, of which I am sure the great majority of Mages are picking IW as their level 90 talent.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
On my Ele Shaman I feel like I have a legitimate choice. I can play the class as I did from 1-89 and get my lvl 90 passive damage boost, OR I can add an interesting new spell to the rotation to spice things up and potentially pump out another 1% or 2% damage if I do it right. Different Shaman prefer different talents and can use whatever they like.


10/28/2012 06:02 PMPosted by Sattyn
That isn't possible with the Mage because Invocation and RoP are annoying as hell to use.


Exactly, and getting a cooler version of your old crappy pet / Elemental Blast which looks AWESOME aren't annoying and bad. They aren't clunky as hell. The design 'choice' is fine, but not when it revolves around EVERYTHING WE DO. We can't move with RoP, we're 1/8th out every fight with Invo, and we get pretty much nothing with IW.

10/28/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Arbiter
Of course, the Devs don't want everyone to take the same talent, so they make IW un-fun too (only viable with on-use). This results in every Mage using different talents, without anyone actually enjoying any of them.

Of course, this is without taking into account PvP, of which I am sure the great majority of Mages are picking IW as their level 90 talent.


Lazies/PvP: IW
PvE: Invo
RoP is like Luigi. No one really wants/likes it.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/28/2012 7:23 PM PDT
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
This results in every Mage using different talents, without anyone actually enjoying any of them.

But since the design goal is met (Mages using different talents) they think everything is just fine.


This is where all the issues come into play that they just ignore completely. It's sad, really.
60 Undead Rogue
8075
They prefer to ignore it so they have less work to do. The change they had initially stated was already fine but then they went ahead and dumped it. That is what is confusing.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 09:07 PMPosted by Metuo
They prefer to ignore it so they have less work to do. The change they had initially stated was already fine but then they went ahead and dumped it. That is what is confusing.


So then why did they bother with Water Jet and Cataclysm if it's from laziness...?
60 Undead Rogue
8075
Those were to address a simple issue. Adjusting these talents would take a lot more work. THe change they just proposed, see how quickly they dumped it? Lazy design. They didn't think it through. Reworking these talents will take a lot of work because adjusting one would mean adjusting all of it.

But it is hilarious. That design they just proposed would have made quite a great QoL change but they prefer to do nothing now but scrap it. Not even a response.
Edited by Metuo on 10/28/2012 10:23 PM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
12045
Those were to address a simple issue. Adjusting these talents would take a lot more work. THe change they just proposed, see how quickly they dumped it? Lazy design. They didn't think it through. Reworking these talents will take a lot of work because adjusting one would mean adjusting all of it.

But it is hilarious. That design they just proposed would have made quite a great QoL change but they prefer to do nothing now but scrap it. Not even a response.


It's not laziness - no one can say Blizz is lazy. It is priorities and limited resources. They have a lot to deal with and some things don't make sense because we are not in the room. The fact that they even wanted to address the issue is a good sign.

10/28/2012 10:13 AMPosted by Lhivera
Even if you did only one of those things -- making the passive higher -- a player with IW could take the spell off his bar, run on nothing but the passive, and match the expected benefit of either of the other two talents. Only exceptional players using Rune or Invocation exceptionally well would do better than a player who took IW and did nothing whatsoever. Do you really think that's OK?


I think if resources are limited and a commitment to rework the talents hard to manage given competing needs of the game, then the idea of reworking IW with a simple parameter change is quite appealing. It will give all the players a way out of the mess and it gives Blizz time. The proposed is simple enough that it could be in place in a hot patch.
1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
10/28/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Metuo
Adjusting these talents would take a lot more work


Yeah, adjusting the numbers on a couple talents is way way more work intensive than making entirely new spells.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
10/28/2012 11:05 PMPosted by Fuzzywashere
It is priorities and limited resources.


Are you actually trying to tell me that there was an immediate priority for Warlocks to have Cataclysm and us to have Water Jet, but not to fix our horribly executed L90 talents?

Sir, please think before you type. Pet Freeze was nowhere near the same issue as these L90 talents.

Adjusting these talents would take a lot more work


Yeah, adjusting the numbers on a couple talents is way way more work intensive than making entirely new spells.


IW is the only one in need of a number tweak. Invocation and RoP need much more than just a tweak. Invo needs to stack and/or be mobile, and RoP... I don't even know, it's such a train wreck atm.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/29/2012 5:52 AM PDT
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Also, does anyone know when threads cap? on page 26 (501 posts) yeah?

Should I just make another thread now, or...?

Never been in this situation before, heh.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/29/2012 8:15 AM PDT
60 Undead Rogue
8075
Probably make a new one after you hit cap.

Also, don't worry guys, blizzard always fixes issues like these...in a year or two.
90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Probably make a new one after you hit cap.

Also, don't worry guys, blizzard always fixes issues like these...in a year or two.


Too bad I'm giving it one patch.

Also, it should cap in 2 posts (After this)
90 Gnome Mage
12045
Are you actually trying to tell me that there was an immediate priority for Warlocks to have Cataclysm and us to have Water Jet, but not to fix our horribly executed L90 talents?

Sir, please think before you type. Pet Freeze was nowhere near the same issue as these L90 talents.


I didn't say they set the right priorities - I said that they have limited resources and are not lazy. Fact is Blizz puts out every year what other gaming companies would not get out in three. I hate what they have done to the Mage class but I definitely don't hate Blizz.
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