[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents

60 Undead Rogue
8075
Honestly Lhiv, why are we talking about these talents and competitive DPS at all? Yes, we know, mathematically these talents make us do competitive DPS if maintained at certain points. Yes maybe too much is loss of DPS maybe exact uptime is great but that is not the point. These talents are not fun. Just like Improved Soul Fire was not fun and THAT increased warlock DPS too. Would you have defended Improved Soul Fire the way it was and said that it was part of developer's design decision? These talents just make the mage clunky to play and that is why we want it changed.

I have no clue who designed Rune of Power to be as dumb as it is. Most raid encounters will always require a lot of movement and if Rune of Power was to restrict movement, it should have been given at least 25-30% damage increase just for the fact that you won't be standing in it for too long and have to move and recast.

I just don't get why you are defending these talents in competitive DPS. Don't bother. They are not fun. They are restrictive. They are poorly designed. POORLY DESIGNED.

Improved Soul Fire

It was clunky.

No one liked it.

It was removed.

Why are the mage level 90 talents still there?

Think it through.
Edited by Metuo on 10/22/2012 12:00 PM PDT
MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
10/22/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Metuo
Honestly Lhiv, why are we talking about these talents and competitive DPS at all?


PPB made a statement about the impact of the talents on his performance. He posted log parses to support that statement. That's what I (and a couple of others) were responding to.

It's pretty common in these discussions for someone to make an inaccurate claim about the numbers related to these talents, and then when the claim is shown to be inaccurate, the immediate response is, "but it's not about the numbers!"

Certainly, it isn't all about the numbers. But for some people, the numbers are a factor in determining what is fun (ie, a talent that presents a challenge, and rewards you with better numbers when you meet that challenge, is fun for some players). And so it's important to point out when the numbers people are using in the discussion are inaccurate.
100 Orc Mage
10855
The fun factor of achieving the numbers required of you to perform in today's raid environments (and please note that even the introductory raid has very stringent DPS checks) takes away the fun factor of the class. How you mathematically get to those numbers is arbtrary.

I am currently destroying people on the charts - sometimes doubling others in dps - and I am leveling my priest alongside that. Because I am not having fun. I don't like standing still. I don't like accidentally clipping evocation. I don't like standing in a rune. I don't like being forced to take damage to optimize my own. Optimizing numbers - again, a requirement of today's raids - is annoying. Not difficult. Annoying. And that's the thing that you simply don't get: if we are to be the assets that we are meant to be, we have to do things that we do not find fun in the slightest. That is counter-intuitive.

This is not a discussion for casual players. They have absolutely no stakes in the discussion.
Edited by Terrorific on 10/22/2012 12:29 PM PDT
90 Worgen Mage
10895
I've tried all three 90 talents while raiding. My conclusion:

1. Invocation - extremely clunky and not fun. Having to evocate every 40 seconds just to put up a buff even when I don't need mana.... lame. Even more lame when it gets interrupted and I have to evocate again. This probably isn't even much of a dps increase, if at all, because a lot of the +25% damage bonus is countered by the increased downtime spent evocating.

2. Rune of Power - extremely clunky and not fun. Having to stand still in one spot not moving at all is the opposite of what mages are all about. Mages are about mobility and avoiding damage. Not standing in stuff. Having to recast it when any movement at all is required is awkward, and the increased time spent casting counters a lot of the dps gain.

3. Incanter's Ward - Clunky and not that fun, but at least it doesn't interfere with mobility too much. Extra shield we can cast on the run. Shield only lasts 6 seconds and it needs to break fully for us to get the +30% spell damage buff. This leads to rather odd mage behavior... I put it up and then immediately run to stand IN the puddle of fire, or I put it up and then run to intercept the boss's projectiles so they smack me and drop the shield. It's very clunky, but overall I consider this the only usable level 90 talent.

Personally, I think Blizzard blew it on the mage 90 tier talents. All of them are clunky and none are fun. They all change up the gameplay, which is good... but they do so in such a clunky un-fun manner that using them feels like a chore rather than a cool talent.

It would be much better if Blizzard ditched the entire tier and started fresh. Perhaps something on the lines of the following for the mage 90 talents:

1. Blink - your Teleport spell's cooldown is reduced to 3 seconds, but its mana cost increases to 15% of your max mana.

2. Swift Teleporter - after casting teleport, you gain +70% movement speed for 3 seconds. In addition, your teleport spell also dispels all movement impairing effects.

3. Ghost porter - after casting teleport you become invisible for 4 seconds. Unlike normal invisibility, you can cast spells or take damage without breaking this invisibility.
90 Worgen Mage
10895
Honestly Lhiv, why are we talking about these talents and competitive DPS at all?


PPB made a statement about the impact of the talents on his performance. He posted log parses to support that statement. That's what I (and a couple of others) were responding to.

It's pretty common in these discussions for someone to make an inaccurate claim about the numbers related to these talents, and then when the claim is shown to be inaccurate, the immediate response is, "but it's not about the numbers!"

Certainly, it isn't all about the numbers. But for some people, the numbers are a factor in determining what is fun (ie, a talent that presents a challenge, and rewards you with better numbers when you meet that challenge, is fun for some players). And so it's important to point out when the numbers people are using in the discussion are inaccurate.


As a mage I feel like I got something cool when I see a big flashy spell effect preferably with some big numbers. That's fun. Examples include things like Arcane Power, Frozen Orb, Pyroblast, etc.

What isn't fun is a clunky mechanic that just has to be followed for what seems like a random reason.

  • Dropping a meteor on a target to get a +25% damage buff for 40 seconds ... that's fun.
  • Having to stop in place and evocate hoping you don't get interrupted every 40 seconds to get a +25% damage buff ... that's not fun. Effect maybe the same as with a meteor, but the mechanics don't feel powerful. They feel clunky.
  • Back in vanilla WoW, paladin blessings had a 5 minute duration. Pallies had to constantly stop to put them back up. Blizzard recognized that putting a buff up frequently like that isn't fun so they eventually extended the buff duration so it wouldn't have to be done so often.

    Invocation is just like that. It's like reducing the duration of arcane brilliance to 40 seconds and giving it a 5 second channeled cast time. Will good mages who want to maximize their dps use it? Of course they will. But is it something new and compelling that's fun to do? No.
    Edited by Mistwynd on 10/22/2012 1:17 PM PDT
    MVP
    90 Human Mage
    10015
    Funny how different things feel to different people. Demo had (has?) a spell in which you drop a meteor on your target's head, and this provides a maintenance buff (or debuff, I forget).

    I strongly disliked it. Felt really awkward to me. Whereas Invocation feels good — feels like I sprint for a bit, stop and take a big breath, sprint, etc. It feels like charging up.

    (ETA: Yeah, I have Rune — decided it felt most Lhiv-like. Will use Invocation on my Fire Mage; it captures that "burn hot, flame out, recharge, repeat" feel. Fits her well.)
    Edited by Lhivera on 10/22/2012 1:23 PM PDT
    60 Undead Rogue
    8075
    10/22/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Lhivera
    Honestly Lhiv, why are we talking about these talents and competitive DPS at all?


    PPB made a statement about the impact of the talents on his performance. He posted log parses to support that statement. That's what I (and a couple of others) were responding to.

    It's pretty common in these discussions for someone to make an inaccurate claim about the numbers related to these talents, and then when the claim is shown to be inaccurate, the immediate response is, "but it's not about the numbers!"

    Certainly, it isn't all about the numbers. But for some people, the numbers are a factor in determining what is fun (ie, a talent that presents a challenge, and rewards you with better numbers when you meet that challenge, is fun for some players). And so it's important to point out when the numbers people are using in the discussion are inaccurate.


    Well you are right that to some people it is about the numbers (even for me, it is too) but honestly, why not just adjust the way these level 90 talents work? Allow movement for Invocation or bigger Rune of Power with no cooldown and instant cast? Would be fun to cast it on the location you think you'll end up in while moving. Adjust the healing numbers on Invocation of course due to PvP ramifications.

    I don't know. Devs could do so much better instead of just going back to old Improved Soul Fire.
    60 Undead Rogue
    8075
    I've tried all three 90 talents while raiding. My conclusion:

    1. Invocation - extremely clunky and not fun. Having to evocate every 40 seconds just to put up a buff even when I don't need mana.... lame. Even more lame when it gets interrupted and I have to evocate again. This probably isn't even much of a dps increase, if at all, because a lot of the +25% damage bonus is countered by the increased downtime spent evocating.

    2. Rune of Power - extremely clunky and not fun. Having to stand still in one spot not moving at all is the opposite of what mages are all about. Mages are about mobility and avoiding damage. Not standing in stuff. Having to recast it when any movement at all is required is awkward, and the increased time spent casting counters a lot of the dps gain.

    3. Incanter's Ward - Clunky and not that fun, but at least it doesn't interfere with mobility too much. Extra shield we can cast on the run. Shield only lasts 6 seconds and it needs to break fully for us to get the +30% spell damage buff. This leads to rather odd mage behavior... I put it up and then immediately run to stand IN the puddle of fire, or I put it up and then run to intercept the boss's projectiles so they smack me and drop the shield. It's very clunky, but overall I consider this the only usable level 90 talent.

    Personally, I think Blizzard blew it on the mage 90 tier talents. All of them are clunky and none are fun. They all change up the gameplay, which is good... but they do so in such a clunky un-fun manner that using them feels like a chore rather than a cool talent.

    It would be much better if Blizzard ditched the entire tier and started fresh. Perhaps something on the lines of the following for the mage 90 talents:

    1. Blink - your Teleport spell's cooldown is reduced to 3 seconds, but its mana cost increases to 15% of your max mana.

    2. Swift Teleporter - after casting teleport, you gain +70% movement speed for 3 seconds. In addition, your teleport spell also dispels all movement impairing effects.

    3. Ghost porter - after casting teleport you become invisible for 4 seconds. Unlike normal invisibility, you can cast spells or take damage without breaking this invisibility.


    Problem is, they'd have to rebalance our damage numbers as we are balanced around level 90 talents to put out competitive DPS.
    100 Blood Elf Mage
    23295
    10/22/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
    PS: I'd love to know at what point is Invocation NOT worth it to cast if you have the time to refresh it? That makes no sense to me now and my whole scenario thought process is confused.


    Quick napkin math here (at 0% haste)...

    For Invocation, you need to be able to cast for 24 out of those 40 seconds to be worth it. That doesn't seem too bad. However, here's the bad news : getting interrupted with 2 seconds left on your channel effectively negates the entirety of the uptime on your next successful Evocation, the whole 40 seconds. I bet that would make you feel really good.

    For Rune of Power, if you can't stand in your rune for more than 10 seconds at once, you shouldn't be using it.

    To me, this yells bad design. On an encounter that randomly forces you to move once every 10 seconds on average or less and that would prevent you to go back to your original location every time, if you aren't taking Incanter's Ward, you are doing it wrong, and not just by a small amount. The best thing you could do if you are stubborn about keeping Invocation or Rune of Power is not use them... at all. And if you can't reliably predict when you will receive damage, well then, don't even bother showing up.

    But that's just the number side of it. On such an encounter, I personally would be so annoyed, I would probably quit long before I can even see the numbers.
    90 Human Mage
    CFT
    18870
    The talents are extremely restrictive. You can choose between stopping your DPS every 40 sec to channel, or being able to DPS regularly for a minute, but being incapable of moving. It really does come off as a penalty. On my shaman, my L90 talents were fun. It added to my playstyle, altering my rotation slightly depending on which I chose. My mage, however, dreaded the final talents. I can choose how I want to gimp myself to remain viable.

    I could, of course, just not stress it, but then my DPS would be far from optimal. Everyone wants to play to their best. It is just kind of ridiculous that you have these clunky, not-fun mechanics as an integral part of mage DPS.

    As an aside, look at everyday play. When I do my dailies, I don't want to be bothered to drop a RoP; mobs die pretty fast anyway. I also do not want to have to channel every 40 seconds, that just kills the pacing. I'm really just left with IW, which is cool, but the fact that these other two talents are so extremely clunky with solo play should be a flag that they aren't good ideas. And no, I don't need these talents to kill mobs, but why should I have to play without them?

    In raids, movement already impairs DPS. These final talents only compound this issue and make mage DPS more stressful. I thoroughly enjoy the feel of the mage class, particularly in PvE, but these talents honestly do kill it for me.


    Everything here. I really hope the devs read this.

    10/22/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Terrorific
    This is not a discussion for casual players. They have absolutely no stakes in the discussion.


    Well, except for fun. That affects everyone.

    10/22/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Freemarket
    My mage, however, dreaded the final talents. I can choose how I want to gimp myself to remain viable.


    I snipped her quote, but I think this says it all. Perfect statement, right there.

    Are you listening, Blizzard?


    Exactly. We just choose how to be viable by gimping ourselves, or gimping our viability with IW on many fights.

    It would be much better if Blizzard ditched the entire tier and started fresh. Perhaps something on the lines of the following for the mage 90 talents:

    1. Blink - your Teleport spell's cooldown is reduced to 3 seconds, but its mana cost increases to 15% of your max mana.

    2. Swift Teleporter - after casting teleport, you gain +70% movement speed for 3 seconds. In addition, your teleport spell also dispels all movement impairing effects.

    3. Ghost porter - after casting teleport you become invisible for 4 seconds. Unlike normal invisibility, you can cast spells or take damage without breaking this invisibility.


    Except for #1's huge mana cost (definitely drop that penalty or Arcane can't pick it), I wouldn't mind these (Also I hope you mean "Blink", and not "Teleport" for those descriptions). Also, they need to give all speccs a damage boost across the board to make up for not having those talents that ALLOW US to be viable.

    As a mage I feel like I got something cool when I see a big flashy spell effect preferably with some big numbers. That's fun. Examples include things like Arcane Power, Frozen Orb, Pyroblast, etc.

    What isn't fun is a clunky mechanic that just has to be followed for what seems like a random reason.

    Dropping a meteor on a target to get a +25% damage buff for 40 seconds ... that's fun.
    Having to stop in place and evocate hoping you don't get interrupted every 40 seconds to get a +25% damage buff ... that's not fun. Effect maybe the same as with a meteor, but the mechanics don't feel powerful. They feel clunky.


    Pretty much.

    10/22/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Lhivera
    Funny how different things feel to different people. Demo had (has?) a spell in which you drop a meteor on your target's head, and this provides a maintenance buff (or debuff, I forget).


    Okay and I've yet to see a single raider say they like these. Kinda funny, isn't it?

    Not to be rude, but when it comes to our DPS, people who don't do PvP/PvE don't really have a say in it because rotations are based off of raiding/PvP, and if I'm wrong in that, then Blizzard has a weird policy with balancing.

    (Post too big to add all the quotes and replies. Adding a second one)
    90 Human Mage
    CFT
    18870
    For Invocation, you need to be able to cast for 24 out of those 40 seconds to be worth it. That doesn't seem too bad. However, here's the bad news : getting interrupted with 2 seconds left on your channel effectively negates the entirety of the uptime on your next successful Evocation, the whole 40 seconds. I bet that would make you feel really good.

    For Rune of Power, if you can't stand in your rune for more than 10 seconds at once, you shouldn't be using it.

    To me, this yells bad design. On an encounter that randomly forces you to move once every 10 seconds on average or less and that would prevent you to go back to your original location every time, if you aren't taking Incanter's Ward, you are doing it wrong, and not just by a small amount. The best thing you could do if you are stubborn about keeping Invocation or Rune of Power is not use them... at all. And if you can't reliably predict when you will receive damage, well then, don't even bother showing up.


    Exactly. I just don't get it. The worst thing though is that IW is bad on some fights (like Spiritbinder), but that makes RoP/Invo great. Only problem is that means it's basically FORCING us to swap our talents on a per-fight basis. Also screams bad design (LHIV, BACK ME UP ON THAT ONE BECAUSE I KNOW HOW MUCH YOU HATE HAVING TO TALENT SWAP!)
    90 Human Mage
    CFT
    18870
    Hey guys, while we're discussing this, would everyone mind +Liking my OP? If it gets to a "Highly Liked" post, it increases awareness by Blizzard (as they keep track of posts that get liked).

    (Not trying to just get a Highly Liked post, I just want them to change these just as much as you guys, and this would greatly increase our chances)
    MVP
    90 Human Mage
    10015
    At 20% haste, approximate break even on a rune would be:

    8.4 / 9.65 * 1.15 = 1.001

    ...so if you can get 8.4 seconds of use out of a rune, it's a good idea to put it down. This use does not have to be continuous: if you stand on it for 5 secs, move, then move back on for another 5 secs, you beat the cost of the cast.
    Edited by Lhivera on 10/22/2012 1:49 PM PDT
    90 Human Mage
    CFT
    18870
    At 20% haste, approximage break even on a rune would be:

    8.4 / 9.65 * 1.15 = 1.001


    This is all Mathematical though.

    What if you could Evocate for this amount of time with Invocation? What if you have to move for the next 30s? Then you couldn't even RoP, but your mobile DPS would be boosted from Invo.

    See? Now it's situational. Math cannot play a role here any longer unless we're all robots and do the perfect thing every time (which can easily change at any time, so no, even a robot would mess up a lot with how clunky and situational all 3 choices are)
    Funny how different things feel to different people. Demo had (has?) a spell in which you drop a meteor on your target's head, and this provides a maintenance buff (or debuff, I forget).

    I strongly disliked it. Felt really awkward to me. Whereas Invocation feels good — feels like I sprint for a bit, stop and take a big breath, sprint, etc. It feels like charging up.

    (ETA: Yeah, I have Rune — decided it felt most Lhiv-like. Will use Invocation on my Fire Mage; it captures that "burn hot, flame out, recharge, repeat" feel. Fits her well.)


    So what feels most Lhiv like is standing still in a circle Kevin Bacon like while the world around you is in chaos?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro
    90 Human Mage
    CFT
    18870
    10/22/2012 02:04 PMPosted by Deerde
    So what feels most Lhiv like is standing still in a circle Kevin Bacon like while the world around you is in chaos?


    Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup. That's Lhiv! :D
    60 Undead Rogue
    8075
    Funny how different things feel to different people. Demo had (has?) a spell in which you drop a meteor on your target's head, and this provides a maintenance buff (or debuff, I forget).

    I strongly disliked it. Felt really awkward to me. Whereas Invocation feels good — feels like I sprint for a bit, stop and take a big breath, sprint, etc. It feels like charging up.

    (ETA: Yeah, I have Rune — decided it felt most Lhiv-like. Will use Invocation on my Fire Mage; it captures that "burn hot, flame out, recharge, repeat" feel. Fits her well.)


    So what feels most Lhiv like is standing still in a circle Kevin Bacon like while the world around you is in chaos?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro


    ROFL so true.
    MVP
    90 Human Mage
    10015
    If by "situational" you mean "each of these talents is stronger than the others in certain situations," yes, of course. The talents are designed to be that way. That's part of the new system's design philosophy.

    That in no way changes the fact that if you are specced for Rune, there is a minimum use time you need to get out of a rune to break even on the time required to cast it.
    60 Undead Rogue
    8075
    If by "situational" you mean "each of these talents is stronger than the others in certain situations," yes, of course. The talents are designed to be that way. That's part of the new system's design philosophy.

    That in no way changes the fact that if you are specced for Rune, there is a minimum use time you need to get out of a rune to break even on the time required to cast it.


    "it's ok guys, everything will be ok, it doesn't matter if it's broken or if people don't like it, everything is just fine!"
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