Hunter DPS worthless in raids...?

5 Night Elf Warrior
0
I'm usually a top 5 player if not top 10 in my 25 man roster. I don't see any issues with hunter dps other than I prefer survival over beast master. Maybe other players in your raids are stronger dps than yourself as individual players or you're lacking a bit of gear. Or even perhaps you are just not finding a way to maximize your dps for a particular fight.

aoe parse-
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xt28acxocoy5isvq/sum/damageDone/?s=14348&e=14747

this is a 3+ target fight normally and even becoming the monstrosity twice managed to be top 5.

single target parse-
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-4l3xaywcugcpm002/sum/damageDone/?s=16064&e=16239

Even with me being SV and it being lower dps than BM i'm right at the BM hunters dps and we're both top 10.


First off thanks for posting logs. You are the first person to actually contribute something real to this thread. However, when we talk about personal dps there is alot of factors that come into play. You have a 493 which is ridiculously high compared to anyone logging on WoL right now, even your raiding team is only sitting at average 480-485. There is one fight that requires aoe and that wont bring up the average much when you factor in 11 other fights with 90% of those being single target and heavy cleave fights.

Even with your impressive logs you are still severely behind on single target and cleave which are 90% of the current raid encounters. I would imagine this entire xpac to only have a handful of aoe encounters. Given your item level and numbers these logs solidify the fact that hunters are beyond gimped.
Edited by Arusi on 11/6/2012 11:23 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Hunter
18005

First off thanks for posting logs. You are the first person to actually contribute something real to this thread. However, when we talk about personal dps there is alot of factors that come into play. You have a 493 which is ridiculously high compared to anyone logging on WoL right now, even your raiding team is only sitting at average 480-485. There is one fight that requires aoe and that wont bring up the average much when you factor in 11 other fights with 90% of those being single target and heavy cleave fights.

Even with your impressive logs you are still severely behind on single target and cleave which are 90% of the current raid encounters. I would imagine this entire xpac to only have a handful of aoe encounters. Given your item level and numbers these logs solidify the fact that hunters are beyond gimped.


Well I am gimping myself in the sense im playing SV when BM is clearly superior but plenty of fights have cleavable targets so I'm ok with that. For single target I will be switching to BM for heroic modes I just need some more practice. I've never been fond of bm so I don't have a lot of experience. I guess I'll post my results with that spec when I have some.

And as for my high ilvl a good amount of our dps have high ilvl as well. Hunters are not going to shine like mages, dks and rogues but we are definitely not useless. To say we'll be behind the entire expac is speaking too soon. We are a good utility class and thats why we have raid spots. I'm sure blizzard will step in if we are truly falling behind. All these BM hunters lolling around the arena charts is not helping our case however.
Edited by Finkployd on 11/6/2012 11:23 AM PST
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5 Night Elf Warrior
0
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Edited by Arusi on 11/22/2012 4:29 AM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
10335
11/06/2012 11:22 AMPosted by Finkployd
And as for my high ilvl a good amount of our dps have high ilvl as well. Hunters are not going to shine like mages, dks and rogues but we are definitely not useless.


It's almost like you said exactly what I've been saying! Maybe I'll post on my main so I get DAT E-CREDZ.

I'm curious though, are you grouping up slimes on Amber for cleave? We only get 3 at a time in 10 and we killed him in ~5 pulls so we got little testing done, but there's no way I could hit 150k+, even if I was SV.

I'd recommend getting your BM practice in now, you'll need it on fights like Gara'jal, and probably Kings. DPS check is probably much easier for Gara now, but I was only 9k behind you this week and I'm in a 10 with a 6 minute fight (instead of 2:55). BM single target is just too good.

This is in essence what simulators prove.


Simulators aren't accurate for all classes (more accurate for some, less accurate for others), and shouldn't be used as a gauge for anything.

If you take the best at their class and put them together, you'd notice that 6/10 guilds in the top 10 used Hunters to get there. Not sure why you consistently ignore this fact. If it was impossible to get there with Hunters, they wouldn't have had them in their raid. Our DPS is behind, nobody has ever denied that, but it's been proven that you can be a top 10 guild in the world with Hunters in your raid.
Edited by Pestílence on 11/6/2012 11:34 AM PST
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90 Pandaren Hunter
18005

Must take into account that you are an exceptional player with a high item level. This again comes down to the skill level of players in a guild. Imagine this, take all the best players in the world for every class, now put them all in one raid. Best Hunters best warriors best mages etc. all with the same item level 496. When no human error (badness) is involved the numbers overwhelmingly prove that hunters *average* dps is indeed dead last on the meters in every spec. This is in essence what simulators prove. They take raw numbers and item level and compare them. The one thing they have trouble with might be cleave fights which WoL has proven hunters to be dead last on.


Eh, you might be on to something there but we'll never have that perfect instance of all the best players in a raid. Doesn't necessarily effect my raid but I can see how it effects the class as a whole. For now most of my raid doesn't even have 2 piece so once the set bonuses are distributed I'm sure I'll have more of a struggle staying near the top. I'm sure with more heroic progression blizzard will notice who's behind. Atleast, I hope they will.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
18005
It's almost like you said exactly what I've been saying! Maybe I'll post on my main so I get DAT E-CREDZ.

I'm curious though, are you grouping up slimes on Amber for cleave? We only get 3 at a time in 10 and we killed him in ~5 pulls so we got little testing done, but there's no way I could hit 150k+, even if I was SV.

I'd recommend getting your BM practice in now, you'll need it on fights like Gara'jal, and probably Kings. DPS check is probably much easier for Gara now, but I was only 9k behind you this week and I'm in a 10 with a 6 minute fight (instead of 2:55). BM single target is just too good.


Yes we are grouping them for cleave otherwise I couldn't have got nearly that high.

I have been practicing BM and I am becoming more familiar with the rotation. We have killed gara'jal on heroic last week but with HoF this week and some issues with players having power outtages due to hurricane Sandy we had a very slow clear in HoF leaving no time to repeat the heroic gara'jal kill. Not to mention one of our main tanks also suffered the power outtage and our backup tank was not nearly geared enough to contribute enough to voodoo targets.

Anywho... Gara'jal was a very close kill for our raid and in our attempts I could see how BM would have been much more helpful in meeting that harsh enrage. Which is why I decided to pick it up in the first place. Not a lot of time has passed since then but I'm hoping to be comfortable with it soon.

Even with a BM switch i can see Hunters falling behind on single target heroic modes and I hope either 4 piece will be a nice boost or blizzard will give us some attention. Regardless of dps hunters will always have some of the best utility for raids so I don't foresee many 25 mans sitting their hunters. Maybe 10 mans but I don't raid 10 man so its hard to say.
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5 Night Elf Warrior
0
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Edited by Arusi on 11/22/2012 4:30 AM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
10335
Anywho... Gara'jal was a very close kill for our raid and in our attempts I could see how BM would have been much more helpful in meeting that harsh enrage. Which is why I decided to pick it up in the first place. Not a lot of time has passed since then but I'm hoping to be comfortable with it soon.

Even with a BM switch i can see Hunters falling behind on single target heroic modes and I hope either 4 piece will be a nice boost or blizzard will give us some attention. Regardless of dps hunters will always have some of the best utility for raids so I don't foresee many 25 mans sitting their hunters. Maybe 10 mans but I don't raid 10 man so its hard to say.


Our 2p alone is ~1.5k-2k DPS, it's definitely a nice boost. As people gear up, we'll fall farther behind (I've also usually been #1 on single target fights since I got lucky early with gear). I keep having to remind my raid that once they catch up, I'll likely be on the bottom if they're doing their job. If you compare #1 BM single target parses to other classes, we're usually ~20k behind. Obviously more with AoE bosses.

Our first Gara'jal kill was insanely tight, I think we beat enrage by literally one second. Never would have made it if I was SV. Hunters still bring some utility in 10, whether it be via a missing buff, absorbing TA's on Elegon, sparks on Will, etc. Far from useless, but also far from where we've been in the past.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
18005
11/06/2012 11:44 AMPosted by Arusi
Good players are going to be good at any class they play. For example, Flinkployd skill level if applied to a mage or lock, would reflect the same numbers I have been mentioning this entire thread. He would be doing 30% *average*dps more then on his hunter. It's all relative, you need to keep an open mind and not identify yourself with any one particular class.


I see your point and I agree. I hadn't thought about it from that perspective but that makes a lot of sense. My only alt at 90 is a guardian tank so I don't have another dps class to compare it to. Probably why I hadn't thought about it relatively.


Our 2p alone is ~1.5k-2k DPS, it's definitely a nice boost. As people gear up, we'll fall farther behind (I've also usually been #1 on single target fights since I got lucky early with gear). I keep having to remind my raid that once they catch up, I'll likely be on the bottom if they're doing their job. If you compare #1 BM single target parses to other classes, we're usually ~20k behind. Obviously more with AoE bosses.

Our first Gara'jal kill was insanely tight, I think we beat enrage by literally one second. Never would have made it if I was SV. Hunters still bring some utility in 10, whether it be via a missing buff, absorbing TA's on Elegon, sparks on Will, etc. Far from useless, but also far from where we've been in the past.


I found our heroic parse for gara'jal but this is skewed from us all going into the spirit realm mind you.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ckbhmvf4ngqcjt3y/sum/damageDone/?s=18411&e=18771

Our kill was also at the last second but the difference between SV and BM is obvious. [the BM hunter had less gear than me and is above me] Again, this is what made me pick it up as a spec and start practicing. It's obvious to be competitive in single target and to meet new dps checks i'll need all the dps I can get.

I know we were much higher in the ranks in the last expac but I doubt blizzard will ignore a pure dps class that is falling behind. If we can't do the only role we have what would be the point.
Edited by Finkployd on 11/6/2012 12:06 PM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
10335
11/06/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Finkployd
It's obvious to be competitive in single target and to meet new dps checks i'll need all the dps I can get.


That's how it always is, it's just a shame BM is the spec to do it in. I hadn't ever touched BM before MoP launch, and I will never touch it again once it's gone. Hopefully sooner rather than later.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
18005

That's how it always is, it's just a shame BM is the spec to do it in. I hadn't ever touched BM before MoP launch, and I will never touch it again once it's gone. Hopefully sooner rather than later.


AMEN
Edited by Finkployd on 11/6/2012 12:08 PM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
16145
Keep in mind that, though we may be weak dpswise atm, be do bring quite a bit of utility to the raid. The ability to bring nearly any buff or debuff with a pet is quite powerful, and beast master hunters can even bring important CDs such as Brezes and an equivalent of Bloodlust. DPS numbers matter yes, and thats our main job, but we are becoming the new support class as well.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14545
From what I have experienced, on a primarily single target burn BM is mostly fine.

The problem is that there are too many cleave/aoe/add fights which dramatically reduce hunter effectiveness compared to other classes.

The situation is just something along the lines of the classes are fine for single target burn fights, but several other specs gain massive advantages on cleave/add fights.

I do not specifically know the breakdown of every spec on cleave/aoe fights, but I know for things like heroic garajal/elegon I do fine. We hit Will, Garalon, Windlord, Guardians I end up just getting trashed (I go survival for Guardians anyway and the fight is broken for bm either way).

Blizzard either needs to try to normalize the aoe/cleave differences in the classes or stop making them half of the tier. We did Garalon on tuesday before the enrage went to seven minutes and were wiping at about 6-7% and out rogue was about 50k ahead of me. We eventually killed in about 15secs before the enrage, but had I been a rogue that should have been at least an hour saved.
Edited by Bledwarf on 11/6/2012 12:13 PM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
10335
Even if you look at something single target like H Gara'jal, comparing the #1 parse;

Hunters: 103,266
Affli Lock: 118,722
Fire Mage: 122,260

This trend is pretty consistent in terms of single target fights. Of course, in AoE fights we are completely destroyed.

I'd like to see MM come back to it's former glory as it has the most complex/interesting gameplay (and it's still far from what it used to be), and have SV be the AoE spec. Given what GC has said though, I'd say it's unlikely we're buffed any time soon.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
14545
Comparing top 1 or even top 5 are always going to have an amount of oddities in them. If you averaged the top 100 or so that would be better.

That being said I understand the point. But the top difference of 5-10% really isn't too bad as minor things can be tweaked over time.

The bigger problem is that half of Vaults and Half of Heart are cleave/aoe fights which grant such giant bonuses to rogues/warriors/dks. BM aoe is absolutely terrible and while survival is acceptable, it is still lower than the top end classes who don't have the single target dps drop form their spec.

The first issue of minor difference in burn fights can be changes relatively easily should blizzard decide to do it. This second issue is a design flaw that requires altering the way abilities work.
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90 Dwarf Hunter
0
in my raid team im lucky to pull 40-50k dps,
we have a dk pulling 110k dps

how is this balanced?


How are you only doing 40-50k dps? I rarely raid, only fill in when needed or do alt raids and I pulled 90k on Elegon 10 as SV. Most other fights I'm in the 60-65k range. Sure other classes are much higher but you should be pulling more then what you are.


I agree, but with me ill admit my DPS is very bad on thiis char because I have been having trouble getting my rotation down. So I have been looking for more experience hunters to help with my DPS plus I havent enchanted/ gemmed my gear fully yet
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5 Night Elf Warrior
0
Comparing top 1 or even top 5 are always going to have an amount of oddities in them. If you averaged the top 100 or so that would be better.

That being said I understand the point. But the top difference of 5-10% really isn't too bad as minor things can be tweaked over time.


You are wrong and I will explain why. I also thought the same at first but you must take into account *gear scaling*. If you look at the top 100 of any given class on single target fights all dps classes seem to be within 5-10% of each other. However, these numbers are quite misleading and you can prove this by looking at top 10-20 parses where players have higher item level. The top 10 are currently sitting at about 496il and the data recorded from those elite few show that hunters are 30% behind on single target fights with the gap growing at an exponential rate with item level. To make things even worse are hunters horrible on cleave fights in some cases 30-50% behind. I had to bring my furry warrior alt who is 10 item levels below my hunter so that my guild could kill heroic garajal, heroic elegon and garalon.

I don't see how the ptr buffs will fix this problem. The careful aim buff will account for about a 1-2% dps gain and the wild quiver buff another 1-2% which still leaves hunters overwhelmingly behind because marks is already the worst hunter spec. The aspect and focus fire buff is nice however it is more of a convenience then a dps boost, granted it will be good for the extremely rare heavy movement fights.

Some ideas I had were to buff cobra shot and steady shot dmg and revert multishot back to it's old vanilla glory. Make multishot hit only 3-5 targets super hard instead of being a mediocre aoe , making hunters cleave viable.
Edited by Arusi on 11/18/2012 4:21 PM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
13585
I don't feel overly weak as a hunter and I've never been on the bottom of the DPS list. I'm not sure I understand. My ilevel is close to the rest of my raid too, with most of my recent ilevels having came from this past week. There's nobody below 490 at this point.

I don't think it's so much as that hunters need a significant boost so as to compete, but rather that hunters need a very tiny boost and the current dominating factors need to be taken down a rung. Comparing hunters to warlocks and mages right now is like asking why a 16 year old in the high school wrestling team was mugged by a heavyweight champion. The heavyweight shouldn't be there.

Which cleave fight are we "50% behind on"?
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4 Draenei Mage
0
11/18/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Jademcian
I've never been on the bottom of the DPS list. I'm not sure I understand. My ilevel is close to the rest of my raid too


All this means is that the other DPS in your guild are bad.
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100 Troll Hunter
13585
I'll be sure to tell WoL to take their top parses away, then. Clearly they are too terrible to be ranking.

edit;
Just to drive this away from one liners, I can give us a look at a long single target BM hunter fight versus a fire mage, both ranking top 10. The fight is Sha of Fear, which means you need two logs from each person in order to really have any useful information due to the porting that happens here.

He gets 88K, I get 86K - I also get one extra application of fearless, meaning I have 30 seconds of 60% more damage than he does. In total, the difference between us is 2% - I'm going to say with the buff and a bit of leniance that it's probably more around a 5% difference between fire mages and BM right now.

That is, it's a pretty significant difference when in each case you're only really bringing them for DPS. Why bring a hunter over a fire mage? Thus, I agree that hunters should get a bit of a buff. What I don't think is that it should be a big one or that we're dismal. Instead, I think the top DPS right now needs to be brought down - so instead of hunters getting a 3-4% increase, it should instead look more of a 1-2% increase with the top classes being hit for 2-3% instead.

Mage: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7b4k7qsh94dy02n8/sum/damageDone/?s=3760&e=4409
Hunter: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/a0r3vtjqigjjfaeu/sum/damageDone/?s=1312&e=1960
Edited by Jademcian on 11/18/2012 4:55 PM PST
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