Blizzard: Just admit botting is a problem...

11/09/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Yellowfiend
That's all I want. An acknowledgement that it's a problem and you're working on it.

Think of it this way: A band of cops are attempting to bust a drug distribution ring. They don't just want to catch one or two low level dealers, but effectively cripple the ring as thoroughly as possible by arresting and convicting all members involved in the production, trafficking, and use of this one particular drug. What's the best way to do this? Through investigation and planning, mate. Door-busting, hat-waving, shoot-from-the-hip vigilante tactics would probably yield more immediate results in this situation, but the efforts wouldn't be as lucrative in the long term. Know what I mean?

So these cops send in two or three of their own undercover. They spends months observing and watching the ring's habits, learning about who's in charge, who's buying, who's selling, and how the product gets trafficked. Now, even though these cops could probably bust a plethora of lower echelon dealers and buyers, they know that bringing a few of these guys downtown won't do anything—it'll get them off the street, sure, but unless the entire network is nailed, they'll just be replaced shortly after their arrest.

And so the cops wait. They wait until they've got enough evidence to bring the whole thing down in one fel swoop. Why? Because not only will it hopefully catch everyone involved, but, by forgoing more timely arrests, it'll also prevent the bosses and ring leaders from learning about our plans prematurely and then using that information to cover their tracks.

This is exactly how we behave and respond, and you'll notice that when we mete out punishment, that it comes in big waves. By tracking and observing these guys for months—instead of pouncing immediately—we can see just how deep the rabbit hole goes. And, what's more? We can do it without these guys knowing. The developers of the software in question are wily, and will adapt their programming immediately should there be any hint that we're onto them. So, in the end, proceeding with caution will yield more results. Slow and steady wins the race, eh?

I know it's probably frustrating on your end, having to witness these guys day in and day out—and for that I do apologize. I know it's rough. Even so, I encourage you to just report them, ignore them, and then let us do our thing. Know that our Hacks Team is working ever so diligently behind the scenes and that one day? One day they'll swoop in again and smite the exploitative as mightily as we've done in the past. Just takes time. :)
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900641315#8

The answer we give in response to this question is the same as it has always been - we gather information from those who would exploit the game so that we can hit them back on a much larger level.

There's many reasons for this, but the primary one is that those who abuse our systems usually aren't on their own accounts - they're often the compromised accounts of other players. Banning them does little because they'll just use another person's information. We'd be punishing those who don't deserve it, and not stopping the abusers because they just move on to their next target.

It's much more effective for us to study what they're doing so we can break the processes at a larger level, or detect them earlier. This is a constant, ever-evolving battle. We break a bot, they make a new one, we study that one, break it, they make a new one. So on and so forth. It's a bit endless, and it always will be so long as there is a market for the things that they do. Gold selling and trading is, most of the time, the direct source of these botters and exploiters.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/166033/gms-not-banning-botters-i-report-why

/thread
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Warlock
6940
You guys can make excuses for why the botters are so bad, but what it all boils down to is that the risk of botting< the reward of botting. Obviously they're getting something out of it, since they're willing to jeapordize their accounts.

If bliz didn't allow botters to persist for months at a time, then you certainly would see fewer bots. My question is; are all botters cought? After bliz "finds the loopholes," do they ban retroactively or do they ban those players that are reported after they discover how the bot program works.

My suggestion has always been that, if it's easy for a player to find a bot program and download it, why can't blizzard go to those same sites, find the bot program, and then go from there? I'm sure someone on thier team is capable of using the same methods that players use to find these botting programs.

Or bliz could make it so that any player who recieves more than a certain number of vote kicks in random bgs will recieve an account debuff that makes them unable to queue again for a certain duration.
All in all, there are many, many proactive ways that bliz could approach the botting problem. Ways that don't force players to endure months of the same bs everytime they queue for a bg.
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87 Undead Rogue
5235
11/09/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Zephor
My suggestion has always been that, if it's easy for a player to find a bot program and download it, why can't blizzard go to those same sites, find the bot program, and then go from there?


Lack of logic.
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Warlock
6940
11/09/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Solaru
That's all I want. An acknowledgement that it's a problem and you're working on it.

Think of it this way: A band of cops are attempting to bust a drug distribution ring. They don't just want to catch one or two low level dealers, but effectively cripple the ring as thoroughly as possible by arresting and convicting all members involved in the production, trafficking, and use of this one particular drug. What's the best way to do this? Through investigation and planning, mate. Door-busting, hat-waving, shoot-from-the-hip vigilante tactics would probably yield more immediate results in this situation, but the efforts wouldn't be as lucrative in the long term. Know what I mean?

So these cops send in two or three of their own undercover. They spends months observing and watching the ring's habits, learning about who's in charge, who's buying, who's selling, and how the product gets trafficked. Now, even though these cops could probably bust a plethora of lower echelon dealers and buyers, they know that bringing a few of these guys downtown won't do anything—it'll get them off the street, sure, but unless the entire network is nailed, they'll just be replaced shortly after their arrest.

And so the cops wait. They wait until they've got enough evidence to bring the whole thing down in one fel swoop. Why? Because not only will it hopefully catch everyone involved, but, by forgoing more timely arrests, it'll also prevent the bosses and ring leaders from learning about our plans prematurely and then using that information to cover their tracks.

This is exactly how we behave and respond, and you'll notice that when we mete out punishment, that it comes in big waves. By tracking and observing these guys for months—instead of pouncing immediately—we can see just how deep the rabbit hole goes. And, what's more? We can do it without these guys knowing. The developers of the software in question are wily, and will adapt their programming immediately should there be any hint that we're onto them. So, in the end, proceeding with caution will yield more results. Slow and steady wins the race, eh?

I know it's probably frustrating on your end, having to witness these guys day in and day out—and for that I do apologize. I know it's rough. Even so, I encourage you to just report them, ignore them, and then let us do our thing. Know that our Hacks Team is working ever so diligently behind the scenes and that one day? One day they'll swoop in again and smite the exploitative as mightily as we've done in the past. Just takes time. :)
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900641315#8

The answer we give in response to this question is the same as it has always been - we gather information from those who would exploit the game so that we can hit them back on a much larger level.

There's many reasons for this, but the primary one is that those who abuse our systems usually aren't on their own accounts - they're often the compromised accounts of other players. Banning them does little because they'll just use another person's information. We'd be punishing those who don't deserve it, and not stopping the abusers because they just move on to their next target.

It's much more effective for us to study what they're doing so we can break the processes at a larger level, or detect them earlier. This is a constant, ever-evolving battle. We break a bot, they make a new one, we study that one, break it, they make a new one. So on and so forth. It's a bit endless, and it always will be so long as there is a market for the things that they do. Gold selling and trading is, most of the time, the direct source of these botters and exploiters.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/166033/gms-not-banning-botters-i-report-why

/thread


It's unnaceptable to force players to endure, we don't want appologies from you, we want to not have bots in game with us.

If you're not going to police them on a day to day basis, then give us more options in doing so. If someone gets reported repeatedly for botting, long term pvp bans should be used against them.

If a player gets reported for botting outside of pvp, disable thier gathering proffessions.

Honest players are the onlyones who suffer from botters. Telling us to suck it up and deal just doesn't sit well.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
8255


She's not trolling, she's telling you the truth, which you apparently don't want to hear.

You are not qualified to state whether or not botting is at an all-time high. Maybe you got unlucky in selection, maybe there were more humans than you thought. Either way you do not have the data to support that accusation, so it's just a comment based on frustration, which has no factual standing. Blizzard does what they can to eliminate botting, but it'll always happen, because the bots find new ways in. There is no cure-all.

Please, if you're just going to be stupid, go elsewhere.


Noone who plays BGs right now can say that bots aren't at an all time high. If you don't notice it, you're just not paying attention. There's no data needed, just queue up and you'll see.

If you report back and claim that botting isnt that bad then you clearly are not paying any attention during the BGs.


I'm pretty sure you weren't here PvP'ing during TBC (I think... sometime around that) to be making that comment lol. That time was the very reason why the option to report players as AFK was created. It also got ridiculously out of hand. If anything, the current state of things is just on-par.
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85 Draenei Paladin
9810
They've always acknowledged the problem.

They've always been working on the problem.

Every time they fix the problem, the hackers find a new way to cheat the system and put the bots back in play.

There will always be bots. But that doesn't mean Blizzard isn't trying to do something about it.

If playing with bots upsets you, stop playing MMOs and stick to single player games.

I've yet to see botting in Swtor / Guild wars 2 / Raiderz (3 i goof around on atm)

So...why avoid MMO's if you want to avoid bots? Just go play under an MMO studio that y'kno cares more about its players then making money.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warlock
7275

I've yet to see botting in Swtor / Guild wars 2 / Raiderz (3 i goof around on atm)

So...why avoid MMO's if you want to avoid bots? Just go play under an MMO studio that y'kno cares more about its players then making money.


You're either ignoring it or refusing to see it.

Considering I can google just as many things about GW2 bots as I can Gw1 bots, and WoW bots, I'm going to stick with the willful ignorance.
Reply Quote
It's unnaceptable to force players to endure, we don't want appologies from you, we want to not have bots in game with us.

If you're not going to police them on a day to day basis, then give us more options in doing so. If someone gets reported repeatedly for botting, long term pvp bans should be used against them.

If a player gets reported for botting outside of pvp, disable thier gathering proffessions.

Honest players are the onlyones who suffer from botters. Telling us to suck it up and deal just doesn't sit well.

Unfortunately, that is the best way to fix the problem.
1) Find out how theyy are exploiting.
2) Fix the hole.
3) Add the bot to Warden.
4) Mass ban everyone.

That way you get the bots that have been reported...and the ones that were not.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
8255
They've always acknowledged the problem.

They've always been working on the problem.

Every time they fix the problem, the hackers find a new way to cheat the system and put the bots back in play.

There will always be bots. But that doesn't mean Blizzard isn't trying to do something about it.

If playing with bots upsets you, stop playing MMOs and stick to single player games.

I've yet to see botting in Swtor / Guild wars 2 / Raiderz (3 i goof around on atm)

So...why avoid MMO's if you want to avoid bots? Just go play under an MMO studio that y'kno cares more about its players then making money.


There really wasn't much reason to bot in SWTOR. Unpopular (by subscription) games really won't have much of an issue with botting, as there's not as many people that care to do it, nor is there much profit to be gained for RMT. I have seen way more hacking in the short time I played SWTOR than I have in WoW though. Movement hacks in particular.
Reply Quote
11/09/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Solaru
That's all I want. An acknowledgement that it's a problem and you're working on it.

Think of it this way: A band of cops are attempting to bust a drug distribution ring. They don't just want to catch one or two low level dealers, but effectively cripple the ring as thoroughly as possible by arresting and convicting all members involved in the production, trafficking, and use of this one particular drug. What's the best way to do this? Through investigation and planning, mate. Door-busting, hat-waving, shoot-from-the-hip vigilante tactics would probably yield more immediate results in this situation, but the efforts wouldn't be as lucrative in the long term. Know what I mean?

So these cops send in two or three of their own undercover. They spends months observing and watching the ring's habits, learning about who's in charge, who's buying, who's selling, and how the product gets trafficked. Now, even though these cops could probably bust a plethora of lower echelon dealers and buyers, they know that bringing a few of these guys downtown won't do anything—it'll get them off the street, sure, but unless the entire network is nailed, they'll just be replaced shortly after their arrest.

And so the cops wait. They wait until they've got enough evidence to bring the whole thing down in one fel swoop. Why? Because not only will it hopefully catch everyone involved, but, by forgoing more timely arrests, it'll also prevent the bosses and ring leaders from learning about our plans prematurely and then using that information to cover their tracks.

This is exactly how we behave and respond, and you'll notice that when we mete out punishment, that it comes in big waves. By tracking and observing these guys for months—instead of pouncing immediately—we can see just how deep the rabbit hole goes. And, what's more? We can do it without these guys knowing. The developers of the software in question are wily, and will adapt their programming immediately should there be any hint that we're onto them. So, in the end, proceeding with caution will yield more results. Slow and steady wins the race, eh?

I know it's probably frustrating on your end, having to witness these guys day in and day out—and for that I do apologize. I know it's rough. Even so, I encourage you to just report them, ignore them, and then let us do our thing. Know that our Hacks Team is working ever so diligently behind the scenes and that one day? One day they'll swoop in again and smite the exploitative as mightily as we've done in the past. Just takes time. :)
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900641315#8

The answer we give in response to this question is the same as it has always been - we gather information from those who would exploit the game so that we can hit them back on a much larger level.

There's many reasons for this, but the primary one is that those who abuse our systems usually aren't on their own accounts - they're often the compromised accounts of other players. Banning them does little because they'll just use another person's information. We'd be punishing those who don't deserve it, and not stopping the abusers because they just move on to their next target.

It's much more effective for us to study what they're doing so we can break the processes at a larger level, or detect them earlier. This is a constant, ever-evolving battle. We break a bot, they make a new one, we study that one, break it, they make a new one. So on and so forth. It's a bit endless, and it always will be so long as there is a market for the things that they do. Gold selling and trading is, most of the time, the direct source of these botters and exploiters.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/166033/gms-not-banning-botters-i-report-why

/thread


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
/re-open thread
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100 Draenei Hunter
14710

So, genuine question here: How can you tell when a player in a BG is a bot? Do they behave in a certain way? Do they do nothing like an afk person? Do they have a name that is just a nonsense collection of letters?....


Based on my own personnal observation, there are all kinds of bots. Some seem to be very simple appearing just like an afk player or one who jumps every so often. Some bots seem to be very sophisticated and even fight in BGs.

I've seen mining bots who seemingly mine from under the ground. I've seen skinning bots that run 24/7 in Twighlight Highlands (I enjoy agro'ing them and running them off cliffs to their death while I parachute away).

I could hard que AV with you right now and show you exactly where a bot('s) will go to fight. I could go on and on.
Edited by Redbow on 11/9/2012 7:35 PM PST
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
/re-open thread

If you take this and apply it to this situation...noting gets fixed. To put it in the context of this, it is better to find out why the windows are popping out and fix that. That is how computer security works.

/thread...again
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
8255

So, genuine question here: How can you tell when a player in a BG is a bot? Do they behave in a certain way? Do they do nothing like an afk person? Do they have a name that is just a nonsense collection of letters?....


Based on my own personnal observation, there are all kinds of bots. Some seem to be very simple apprearing just like an afk player or one who jumps every so often. Some bots seem to be very sophisticated and even fight in BGs.

I've seen mining bots who seemingly mine from under the ground. I've seen skinning bots that run 24/7 in Twighlight Highlands (I enjoy agro'ing them and running them off cliffs to their death while I parachute away).

I could hard que AV with you right now and show you exactly where a bot('s) will go to fight. I could go on and on.


That. Bots will follow a specific pathing, where even if detoured, they will pause to recalibrate position and resume the set path coordinates the player has assigned. The most obvious of pathing bots will follow little juke movements to the T. Every occasion that the bot has completed a full circuit route, and repeats it, the same quirks are repeated at the exact same spot on the ground with pinpoint precision (assuming no interruptions at that specific moment).
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Priest
17200
Does it really matter the number of bots out there right now? Regardless of numbers, they've always existed and Blizzard has always given the issue serious attention.

But as blues have pointed out before, just banning the bots right away only shifts their activity to new accounts. It does nothing to decrease the number of bots. It's more efficient for Blizzard to observe the affected accounts to determine what it is they're doing and how to counter it, then take them all out at once. The hackers will then come up with a new ploy but at least there will be a break in the botting activity for a time. If Blizzard just bans the accounts right away, there will be no break at all.

Bots themselves aren't at an unfair advantage over you in anyway in a BG. They do put you at a disadvantage if the other team doesn't have a similar number of bots to deal with (which they probably do).

If you want to make sure that you are ending up with real players on your side. group with friends or others from your server and queue together. Then you won't have to worry about bots on your team.
Reply Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory
/re-open thread

If you take this and apply it to this situation...noting gets fixed. To put it in the context of this, it is better to find out why the windows are popping out and fix that. That is how computer security works.

/thread...again


Not really. You're being willfully obtuse. Here the line that I thought was most telling, from that article: vandalism occurs much more quickly as the community gives off a "no one cares" vibe.

The more that it appears that nothing is going to be done, the more people will commit crimes, in this case, botting. Blizzard needs to appear to be doing more. The last ban wave was early last year, I believe, and the one previous to that was two years earlier. Given that the ban waves are so infrequent, and that Blizzard tends to be behind-the-iron-curtain- secretive about its ban waves, instead of announcing them, is it any wonder that players feel that they can bot with very little likelihood of getting caught?

To change the metaphor - game, set, and match.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warlock
7275

Not really. You're being willfully obtuse. Here the line that I thought was most telling, from that article: vandalism occurs much more quickly as the community gives off a "no one cares" vibe.

The more that it appears that nothing is going to be done, the more people will commit crimes, in this case, botting. Blizzard needs to appear to be doing more. The last ban wave was early last year, I believe, and the one previous to that was two years earlier. Given that the ban waves are so infrequent, and that Blizzard tends to be behind-the-iron-curtain- secretive about its ban waves, instead of announcing them, is it any wonder that players feel that they can bot with very little likelihood of getting caught?

To change the metaphor - game, set, and match.


And you're being willfully ignorant if you think Blizzard saying "We're going to ban botters." doesn't precipitate them mailing off goods to a non-botting character, or the general public, or people that are botting but with their own accounts turning it off until after the wave goes through.

You cannot change the source of the bad behavior. Which is people not giving a damn, not Blizzard being blasé because herp derp we get the $15.
Edited by Qaira on 11/9/2012 7:37 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
6530
11/09/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Yellowfiend
That's all I want. An acknowledgement that it's a problem and you're working on it.


They wont acknowledge it publicly again, They have already said they are working on it. They have Already said they need to study how the bots work. I've seen many blue responses on this issue already, continuing to bring it up again and again, ISN'T going to change anything, and demanding responses from blues can get you a temp forum ban.
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90 Human Paladin
6530
I remember in Vanilla, I would see the same bots running around in Felwood. Every day. For weeks... months...

It's always happened. Nothing has changed. You can't say it's gone up because you have no proof of it.

Blizzard, as others have said, has acknowledged it and do what they can do ban but it is typically in waves and a lot at one time.

Oh and btw... they don't have to "admit" anything to you. But they actually have... so... be happy they actually do something about it unlike other MMO's I have played.


Yep Essence of Water farmers I remember those bots, I used to enjoy getting them killed so I could farm the area :P
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Hunter
14710
Does it really matter the number of bots out there right now? Regardless of numbers, they've always existed and Blizzard has always given the issue serious attention.

But as blues have pointed out before, just banning the bots right away only shifts their activity to new accounts. It does nothing to decrease the number of bots. It's more efficient for Blizzard to observe the affected accounts to determine what it is they're doing and how to counter it, then take them all out at once. The hackers will then come up with a new ploy but at least there will be a break in the botting activity for a time. If Blizzard just bans the accounts right away, there will be no break at all.

Bots themselves aren't at an unfair advantage over you in anyway in a BG. They do put you at a disadvantage if the other team doesn't have a similar number of bots to deal with (which they probably do).

If you want to make sure that you are ending up with real players on your side. group with friends or others from your server and queue together. Then you won't have to worry about bots on your team.


perfect example of why rational people should not read these forums... /exit
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
6530
Was there even a point to making this post?

Did you not notice the other 6 million other post that have been made about botting?

Or did you just want to be super special and make your own post to try and look cool while you actually look like a word I can't type without being banned.

I mean do you have the solution to botters? Do you know how they work?

Blizzard bans and fixes the problem with botters all the time but technology evolves, things change they find loopholes. The cycle will continue.

Its not some simple easy fix like you all seem to think it is, all you want to do is whine and cry while stomping your foot claiming blizzard is wrong and stupid and terrible at there jobs.

Here's an idea, when you see someone botting report them. Blizzard investigates every single report of botting and they take it very serious.

People like you make me sick.


Blizzards method of dealing with botters is simply OUTDATED.
In the past,sure waiting to gather as much info as possible to remove/resolve the program/s being used,then issuing wide sweeping bans and hot-fixing things so that program can't be used again kind of worked,
but...
BIG BUT!!!
The programs/scripts being used can be 'made' or 'changed' to work over night.
So, Blizz really needs to get up to speed and realize THEY WILL NEVER BEAT THE PROGRAM/SCRIPT, but they can beat the player that cares about losing his account when he/she knows botter are dropping like flies daily, and not just bimonthly.


The problem is, many of these botters are probably using hacked accts. and may be TRYING to get the acct banned after they stripped it of money.
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