is prot warrior threat generation low?

100 Human Warrior
15510
so I've noticed that monk and deathknight tanks both seem to generate more threat than me even while i have vengeance stacked up during boss fights. not being able to keep the boss off the other tank (even though they say they are only auto attacking when the swap happens) is annoying.

I'm doing everything i can to keep above them but it often seems like my threat generation is just inferior compared to theirs. Am i missing something or does prot warrior threat generation just suck compared to other tanks?
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
DKs are using a two-handed DPS weapon, and their primary mitigation is a weapon attack--and they don't have a lot to do other than damaging maneuvers. They hit like a beast--this is not new.

Monks are like Druids in that they use DPS gear to tank in--however unlike druids they're generally not putting anything into avoidance--it's generally all going into hit, expertise, haste, and crit. All things being equal, monks should be putting out a lot of threat simply due to how they have to gear.

In both cases, they're going to be riding high on vengeance while you haven't got any built--this is going to further swing things in their favor.

It's generally an L2P issue on behalf of the other tank, however. If you're not actively tanking a mob, there's no reason to be competing in threat with an active tank.

In the case of the monk, he can actually switch to Tiger Presence--this reduces his threat considerably for a while while he builds shuffle time. His energy regen lowers, but each jab he makes gives two chi instead of one, allowing him to blackout kick more often. He doesn't need to guard or purify, so this makes sense. Once you have a comfortable lead and vengeance, he can switch back.
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90 Orc Warrior
12350
You could also try raising both your Hit & Expertise.

Your Hit is at 1.92% and your Expertise is at 2.10%.

I currently have my Hit & Expertise each slightly above 7.5%, although I am considering raising my Expertise to be closer to 15% for more damage and allow me to use my AM abilities even more...that and I really do not like hearing my attacks getting parried.

In addition, you could change your glyphs around and pick up the Revenge glyph (Hold the Line) for 50% more damage on next Revenge after you parry and/or Shield Block (Heavy Repercussions) one that gives 50% increase damage on SS while Shield Block is active.
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
If they have vengeance, you don't, and you're doing a tank swap and they pull aggro back, it doesn't matter what you were doing or whose class does what, they're screwing up.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
11850
DK tanks are doing tons of damage right now and damage = threat. If taunt swapping is an issue ask the other tank to stop attack (or at least using any abilities) until you get full threat.

If you want to up your own threat to compete a bit more reforge to 7.5% hit and 7.5% (or even 15%) expertise. That should also increase your rage and AM abilities a bit.
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85 Human Paladin
7460
11/15/2012 08:48 AMPosted by Rijdot
If they have vengeance, you don't, and you're doing a tank swap and they pull aggro back, it doesn't matter what you were doing or whose class does what, they're screwing up.


^this when it's time for the other tank to taunt an experienced tank will stop special attacks or even stop all attacks (if necessary) to allow the other tank to get aggro.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
Please stop advising him to change his gearing strategy. The other tank can stop pushing buttons and back off, switch stances, etc.

I don't like hearing tanks on vent arguing about threat. If you don't want the boss attacking you, you throttle your threat. No brainer. If throttling your threat isn't enough, you throttle it more.

11/15/2012 08:48 AMPosted by Rijdot
If they have vengeance, you don't, and you're doing a tank swap and they pull aggro back, it doesn't matter what you were doing or whose class does what, they're screwing up.


11/15/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Fangthane
^this when it's time for the other tank to taunt an experienced tank will stop special attacks or even stop all attacks (if necessary) to allow the other tank to get aggro.
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90 Human Monk
16165
11/15/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Kickgruntler
Please stop advising him to change his gearing strategy.


Warriors use active mitigation too. Increasing his Hit and Exp will not only help him with threat, it will also give him the resources to take less damage.

This will not solve "everything", a working relationship with your tank group is very important as well.

Up your Hit/Exp and talk to your Co-tank~
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90 Pandaren Monk
13240
As mentioned already, it comes down to gearing strategies. Monks particularly as a general rule want dps stats. Most of us don't touch mastery rating with a 10' pole.

I realized early on that pushing Keg Smash within the first 5 seconds or so of a fight was a no-no when my warrior parnter was tanking first, and this was with me being at least a week behind on gear due to leveling up.

Bottom line, it just takes a little teamwork. You need to focus a bit more on threat if possible in the first few seconds, and the other tank needs to hold off a bit during those seconds.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/15/2012 10:17 AMPosted by Verjeh
Please stop advising him to change his gearing strategy.


Warriors use active mitigation too. Increasing his Hit and Exp will not only help him with threat, it will also give him the resources to take less damage.

This will not solve "everything", a working relationship with your tank group is very important as well.

Up your Hit/Exp and talk to your Co-tank~


That's a different discussion--if his build is the appropriate one to mitigate the encounter, that's the build he should go with.

Ultimately, it's a playstyle and execution issue, not a gear issue.

And as I mentioned, there's ways to make it work for you--using Tiger Stance to build shuffle duration for a monk, having the DK go frost presence and just start dpsing the hell out of the boss, that sort of thing.
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11/15/2012 10:51 AMPosted by Kickgruntler
That's a different discussion--if his build is the appropriate one to mitigate the encounter, that's the build he should go with.


No, it's not a different discussion. read the original post again.

11/15/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Thadric
even while i have vengeance stacked up


He's not just talking about taunt swaps here. If his threat is that low that even while being the active tank the inactive tank is overthreating him, accuracy, or the lack thereof, is the most likely and logical cause.
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90 Pandaren Monk
6570
11/15/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Zapwidget
That's a different discussion--if his build is the appropriate one to mitigate the encounter, that's the build he should go with.


No, it's not a different discussion. read the original post again.

even while i have vengeance stacked up


He's not just talking about taunt swaps here. If his threat is that low that even while being the active tank the inactive tank is overthreating him, accuracy, or the lack thereof, is the most likely and logical cause.


If you're going for most logical cause, then 'not getting out of a threat stance when you're a threat-statted tank switching with an evasion-statted tank' seems to be the most logical cause.
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11/15/2012 01:42 PMPosted by Kickgruntler
If you're going for most logical cause, then 'not getting out of a threat stance when you're a threat-statted tank switching with an evasion-statted tank' seems to be the most logical cause.


So, let's look at how that discussion would go:

Tank 1: Hey, I'm not generating as much threat as I should be. I now, others that play the same class don't really have this problem, but there's nothing I can do to fix it, so, I need you to switch out of tanking presence when you aren't the active tank.

Tank 2: So, because you're bad I have to be better? And we let you tank why?

Ignoring accuracy doesn't work anymore. Whether you want to emphasize it or not is your call, but you cannot ignore it, and doing so is simply a sign of ignorance. It doesn't matter if that is the style somebody chooses to go with, what's wrong is wrong. Ignoring accuracy leads to increased damage intake and reduced threat output. A tank has two functions: staying alive and holding threat. As such, ignoring accuracy is directly counter to fulfilling a tank's purpose.

Your entire argument is that if the OPs stat strategy is working for them then they should keep with it, which is fine, except that if the OPs stat strategy was working for them this post would not exist.
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100 Worgen Warrior
5160
you have vengeance, and they don't, yet they still pull aggro? sounds pretty shady.

it could be your hit/exp. especially if they are capped, and you are not. might be happening with a string of misses. if it is happening constantly i'd take a serious look at your rotation.

check to see if you are in defensive stance? hey it happens to the best of us.
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I'll also throw in here. for the sake of clarity, long ago when Vengeance was still relatively new, and DK threat was off the charts and paladin threat was relatively weak, my DK co-tank would need to swap stances on some encounters. When paladin threat went up and vengeance got tweaked a bit more, he no longer had to do this.

Asking your co tank to swap stances is a valid tactic when you're already doing what you should be doing and the problem persists, but that is not the case here.
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100 Tauren Druid
9720
You could also try raising both your Hit & Expertise.

Your Hit is at 1.92% and your Expertise is at 2.10%.


That was my first thought.

You've reforged out of hit on one piece, only have hit on one other piece, and only two pieces with expertise.

Everything else is Parry/Dodge/Mastery, both your trinkets are pure Stamina. All your enchants are Stamina or Avoidance. You are full of health, but if the boss isn't beating on you, you don't need that much health.

How is rage generation going for you? All that mastery is underused if you're not able to use Shield Block on melee encounters.

Ease back a bit and work up your hit/exp a bit. Maybe swap out Windsong for a Weapon Chain.

** Note: I haven't played my warrior much since pre-FL Cata, and said Warrior has just dinged 90 and has done like two heroics **
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90 Worgen Rogue
3645
You could also try raising both your Hit & Expertise.

Your Hit is at 1.92% and your Expertise is at 2.10%.


That was my first thought.

You've reforged out of hit on one piece, only have hit on one other piece, and only two pieces with expertise.

Everything else is Parry/Dodge/Mastery, both your trinkets are pure Stamina. All your enchants are Stamina or Avoidance. You are full of health, but if the boss isn't beating on you, you don't need that much health.

How is rage generation going for you? All that mastery is underused if you're not able to use Shield Block on melee encounters.

Ease back a bit and work up your hit/exp a bit. Maybe swap out Windsong for a Weapon Chain.

** Note: I haven't played my warrior much since pre-FL Cata, and said Warrior has just dinged 90 and has done like two heroics **


you are in the right of things. especially since hit/exp indirectly increase mitigation through better rage gen.
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90 Troll Monk
4540
I notice I have to some times do nothing for a bit if I am the OT with a warrior MT, a single keg smash crit sends my threat flying past them within the first 10 sec.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
15860
I like how deep wounds, revenge, and seal of truth get nerfhammered within a couple weeks and keg smash hasn't even been noticed
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39 Worgen Warlock
0
11/16/2012 12:24 AMPosted by Ðemolition
I like how deep wounds, revenge, and seal of truth get nerfhammered within a couple weeks and keg smash hasn't even been noticed


It's been noticed. They gave it a splash damage cap.

Not much of one, though.

Just... shift our damage. Please. Everything else is so piddly. :(
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