Dungeon loot: Are we rats in a maze?

90 Undead Monk
11685
I just can't help but wonder if we paying customers are part of a sociology/psychology experiment of some sort.

We have progressed through several loot systems in the past little while, between dungeons, raids and especially the LFR system. In LFR, people could need on items and then pass them to friends. In dungeons, people can need on trinkets and jewelry which do them absolutely no good, but take them away from people who can actually lose them.

Now, we have a loot system where you can't see the rolls of other people, until after someone wins an item. It encourages a "grab what you can" mentality. Unless, of course, you want to enter the console command, /lootrolls. So you are discouraged from being considerate of others, according to the in-game culture and social expectations we players have with one another. (And Blizzard has zero desire to support those social expectations we players have... their various loot systems over recent times show that)

Now, Blizzard developers aren't stupid. That's the assumption, at least. They get paid somewhat well, I'm sure. They probably get selected via a detailed hiring process.

At first, I thought that these gents hadn't thought things through when coming up with the various loot systems. Why hadn't they anticipated that people would use (abuse!) these systems in these various ways? To me, these things seemed obvious.

Today, most recently, I had a warrior need (and win) a trinket from Heroic Scholomance. Beyond the fact that he can't use it, but Blizzard let him grab it and run, I found myself why Blizzard intentionally created a system which allows this.

It seems that the current system encourages a certain amount of selfishness, at the very least. And, a great many people who try to uphold [what they consider to be] a higher standard are feeling like "giving in" and just resorting to a "grab what you can" mentality, and everyone else be damned.

I just find myself wondering if there is some sort of psychological study of some sort going on. Or, at the least, if the developers want to create a certain amount of tension in a "dog eat dog" sort of loot system.
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85 Human Paladin
11570
keep pulling the lever.

also, take the blue pill and see how deep the rabbit hole goes.

giggidy.
Edited by Robokapp on 11/1/2012 2:59 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
11/01/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Onikaze
It seems that the current system encourages a certain amount of selfishness, at the very least. And, a great many people who try to uphold [what they consider to be] a higher standard are feeling like "giving in" and just resorting to a "grab what you can" mentality, and everyone else be damned.


The systems have always done this, it's just in the past, other people had the abiltiy to control how you played more, via social and server pressure.

If you que with less than 5 into the random system, you're subjecting yourself to random people doing random things, Anonymity is a powerful thing.

The positives of the system outweigh the negatives, and most importantly, if it's a huge issue, you still have the option of pre-forming full groups.
Edited by Postonforums on 11/1/2012 3:00 PM PDT
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90 Undead Monk
11685
Preformed groups are an option, but only a fraction of the time, realistically.

I'm wondering why there isn't a system similar to the previous LFR loot system, where if an item is appropriate to your role in that dungeon, you get an extra 100 on your roll for that item. And yes, you would still have some people rolling on the same loot. (Shadowpriests and healers for a staff, for instance) But you wouldn't have a Guardian (bearform) druid taking that healing staff when someone else needs it more.
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
11/01/2012 05:02 PMPosted by Onikaze
I'm wondering why there isn't a system similar to the previous LFR loot system, where if an item is appropriate to your role in that dungeon, you get an extra 100 on your roll for that item. And yes, you would still have some people rolling on the same loot. (Shadowpriests and healers for a staff, for instance) But you wouldn't have a Guardian (bearform) druid taking that healing staff when someone else needs it more.


so that people can logistically gear up their offspec.
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100 Human Paladin
14150
They're actually called "Valor Pellets".
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
http://www.blackframefame.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/obstacles_motorvator-550x440.jpg
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90 Undead Monk
11685
11/01/2012 05:11 PMPosted by Postonforums
so that people can logistically gear up their offspec.


Offspecs are great. People deserve to gear their mainspec first.

And as far as a Warrior taking an agility trinket which only I could have used? That's just retarded.

11/01/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Slashlove
http://www.blackframefame.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/obstacles_motorvator-550x440.jpg


Dig it. Wish I could.

Actually, I'm starting to prefer healing on classes where I can pick 'n choose whom I heal. So if someone is being annoying, I can just let them die.
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90 Dwarf Warlock
15195
11/01/2012 09:38 PMPosted by Onikaze
Offspecs are great. People deserve to gear their mainspec first.


So, when I go blood and tank a 5 man for you, that is not my mainspec, but it solves a lot of que issues, removing 1 more DPSer, adding 1 more tank, and speeding things up.

everythings positive, until people complain over infinite supply gear.
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90 Undead Monk
11685
Offspecs are great. People deserve to gear their mainspec first.


So, when I go blood and tank a 5 man for you, that is not my mainspec, but it solves a lot of que issues, removing 1 more DPSer, adding 1 more tank, and speeding things up.

everythings positive, until people complain over infinite supply gear.


I can see your argument a bit. But for people for whom that gear is the only thing they can use...?

Okay, so someone queues on a Hunter. I play my Shaman as Resto, to "speed up the queue", but grab "Hunter loot" for my Enhance spec. How does that Hunter feel, when I take the only thing he can use?

If it's infinitely available, then wouldn't it be more considerate to "wait your turn"? And, more to the point, are you telling me you never get angry when someone else grabs tanking gear?

Blizzard doesn't make the loot system that way, so that's another point in your direction. And that's where I'm at. I'm on the verge of "grab it, I can use it" (paralleling your approach) as my mentality, because the expectations which we players have do not match up (obviously) with Blizzard's idea of how loot should be doled out. I guess I am trying to figure out what they are thinking.

Even more, with "ninja looting"... Blizzard says that this does not exist. In fact, they even facilitate loot scam situations.

This is why I wonder if there is some sort of experiment of sorts going on at times. Or, if they just like to see people squabble over items.
Edited by Onikaze on 11/2/2012 1:04 AM PDT
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
18230
11/02/2012 01:01 AMPosted by Onikaze
If it's infinitely available, then wouldn't it be more considerate to "wait your turn"? And, more to the point, are you telling me you never get angry when someone else grabs tanking gear?


"wait your turn" is a good point, It can work both ways.

I don't get angry over people winning gear in RANDOMS, because random encompasses more than just the dungeon selection.

I've run more heroics than most people who enter into this discussion, and I can honestly say, the only time I got "mad" was when mages/locks who did no damage won spirit gear, but the rational part of me understands why and when appropriate.

Blizzard has directly spoken that they intend 5 mans to be a place for players to gear up both main and offsets, they don't believe in main sets in the grand scheme of things.

When I do organized raiding, players tend to use their main role more often, so organized loot systems are needed, but as long as the 4 people I run with will realistically never be seen again, I won't care how they feel afterwards, if they're getting mad over purple pixels, or.... LOL blue pixels, than that's their issue, 5 mans are usually only a day or 2 of my character's progression, and again, with an infinite supply of loot, no "real" lockouts, and the diversity that exists now, I don't think 5 man loots a huge issue.

I would still like to see agility and strength users unable to roll on inappropriate gear though, as that is the only major flaw in the current system.

11/02/2012 01:01 AMPosted by Onikaze
This is why I wonder if there is some sort of experiment of sorts going on at times. Or, if they just like to see people squabble over items.


Funny thing about this, they change the LFR system from being simple to complex, There is much more crying now, than EVER over the system. People cry about loot in this game, no matter what, even hardcore raiders QQ over purple pixels, and it's pathetic.
Edited by Postonforums on 11/2/2012 1:24 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
8425
I just had the exact same thing happen to me and really pissed me off. A DK needed won and left within 2 sec of obtaining the agil trinket from heroic scholo.

I get the off spec part, but STR classes shouldnt be allowed to roll on agi items and so on.

Thats ninja looting and should not be tolerated, its beyond frustrating to run a single dungeon 5-10 times and get one drop on this item only to get it ninja-ed by a class that cant even use it.

That should be fixed.
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100 Orc Hunter
9305
11/01/2012 09:38 PMPosted by Onikaze
People deserve to gear their mainspec first.
cool

ppl deserve to gear their "main" character first and your alts have to wait, k?

oh, and ppl who play the game more then you do deserve gear first and you have to wait, k?
Edited by Zaxan on 11/19/2012 2:54 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
8780
Me and Postonforums tend to come into these threads (which pop up regularly as the OP can't take 12 seconds to search). Like him I tend to do a LOT of dungeons (lately as tank). I don't have an 'off' spec. I have 2 specs (almost done gearing out my healing spec - 5 pieces left) which I will use both of if the need arises. BUT I'm not going to go into a dungeon in full tanking gear to heal as that would be horrible for the group and nobody would get anything as I would have 0 spellpower and low int and everyone would die.

Here is the flipside : I need exactly 1 item from 1 specific dungeon (Shado Pan) for my tanking set. So if I randomly (and I do a LOT of randoms) get any other dungeon by your reasoning I should be denied even the chance at loot ?
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100 Human Paladin
12030
11/01/2012 02:43 PMPosted by Onikaze
It seems that the current system encourages a certain amount of selfishness, at the very least. And, a great many people who try to uphold [what they consider to be] a higher standard are feeling like "giving in" and just resorting to a "grab what you can" mentality, and everyone else be damned.


Any system that works will encourage a certain amount of selfishness. The people who switch from a "higher standard" to "grab what you can" are just butthurt because their higher standard is not the higher standard that actually works within the game. Accept that off spec need rolls and the loot competition they enable are intended and appropriate, and suddenly all those people who roll for off spec need are just normal people going for their fair share of the loot they helped generate. You are no longer surrounded by a bunch of greedy loot-!@#$%s stealing your gear, but by fellow players worthy of the same respect they give you.

I almost never see anybody say "I used to believe in need rolling only for gear you would equip, but after seeing all the people need rolling to vendor or disenchant, I'm going to switch to need rolling on everything else, because people are a bunch of jerks!" No, it's always the people who insist that the only reasonable standard for loot sharing is that you only get need rights on gear for the role you are currently playing, who are upset because neither Blizzard nor a large portion of the player base agrees with them.'

If you can and will equip a piece of gear, roll need on it. If you win, don't gloat. If you lose, don't whine. The game is far more enjoyable that way. If you find otherwise - if your fellow players have infuriated you so much that you cannot find pleasure in WoW except by taunting or abusing others, please go find a single player game to play.
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