Ret paladins...... Inquisition changes needed

100 Goblin Warlock
17215
I'm sorry, but just because you're middle of the pack supposedly(haven't looked), doesn't mean you have a problem. Someone has to be middle of the pack.

I love how people look at these rankings and it could be a 6k dps gap and it's the end of the world. Bad players could be bringing that number down or good players can be inflating that number.

Is your guild benching you and there's nothing you can do to improve? If not then there isn't a problem.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
14125
11/06/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Vladja
The problem is other classes really.


yes. this is a problem with OTHER classes. not with us. fixing us isn't the answer because we are not broken.

If other classes get buffs, we're indirectly receiving nerfs. All the way to comments like, "spec Holy and learn to play". I don't see enough nerfs to other classes to change much of anything.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
11/07/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Vladja
our aoe is fine

Nope its pretty crappy in comparison, but I agree that a real cleave would be nice.

11/07/2012 08:47 AMPosted by Vladja
none of the suggestions you are making about inquisition will really buff ret's damage in pve or pvp


No one is trying to get a huge damage boost out of it, we're just trying to fix a crappy mechanic, but yes it will net a dps gain if it goes to mana, might be small but it will be there.
Edited by Tbolt on 11/7/2012 12:09 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7005
11/07/2012 12:11 AMPosted by Tbolt
You can throw pvp examples in all you like but fixing Inq's ramp up will only help Ret in pvp.

Why help a spec that feels very balanced? Ret will need help if PvP power gets nerfed for hybrids, but then you'd have to look at the big picture again. The problem would be with our utility, not Inquisition.

11/07/2012 12:11 AMPosted by Tbolt
I can talk about pve though and from that aspect, fixing Inq is definitely a good thing. Ret is mid pack at best so a slight bump is a good thing for single target and AoE. Our AoE in comparison to other classes is pretty crap unless we specifically glyph and talent for it and even then it can still be topped.

Middle of the pack is good. It means balanced. As for Ret AoE, I've heard it's fine. That doesn't make it so, but I'm inclined to trust others' experience over yours.

11/07/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Tbolt
No one is trying to get a huge damage boost out of it, we're just trying to fix a crappy mechanic, but yes it will net a dps gain if it goes to mana, might be small but it will be there.

A slight buff is just that, a slight buff, and it's not worth reducing the depth of the rotation.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14515
11/07/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Tbolt
Nope its pretty crappy in comparison, but I agree that a real cleave would be nice.


what would be 'not crappy' in your opinion? the free cleave and aoe of wolk era ret? because ret was pretty mindless and boring to play back then.

our aoe is fine. the only change that could possibly improve it is giving us some non targeted abilities.

11/07/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Tbolt
No one is trying to get a huge damage boost out of it, we're just trying to fix a crappy mechanic, but yes it will net a dps gain if it goes to mana, might be small but it will be there.


the mechanics are not crappy. the mechanics are fine, more than fine now that we are no longer resource starved. ret is about resource and cooldown management. if you can't manage your resources correctly the problem lies in you, not the mechanic.

decoupling inquisition from our resources will dumb down the whole spec.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7005
11/07/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Vladja
our aoe is fine. the only change that could possibly improve it is giving us some non targeted abilities.

Yea, Hammer of the Righteous has quality of life issues. It's too easy to lose a target in the confusion and waste a GCD. Also I find it kind of dumb how rarely Ret is supposed to switch to Seal of Righteousness. Why does this seal exist if there are so few situations in which it's superior to Truth? HotR, DS, and SoR should all be a DPS increase over their single-target counterparts at the same number of targets.

the mechanics are not crappy. the mechanics are fine, more than fine now that we are no longer resource starved. ret is about resource and cooldown management. if you can't manage your resources correctly the problem lies in you, not the mechanic.

decoupling inquisition from our resources will dumb down the whole spec.

holler
Reply Quote
58 Tauren Death Knight
0
Having a buff to manage is already a huge benefit over managing a debuff though.
If you turned Inquisition into a DoT or a Strike, you are only getting the damage off on one target at any given time. Sure, it gives you more instant gratification, but in the long run, it would probably end up being more of a nerf than anything else. I don’t think Ret needs a nerf at this point in the game.

I do feel the Inquisition Glyph should be changed to be less lame. Make it refresh Inquisition on killing blow as others have suggested or something along those lines.

As far as Censure goes, I feel it should be baked into all Seals instead of just Seal of Truth. Right now, Righteousness is seldom used because it is a DPS loss over Truth until iirc 6+ targets (which is very seldom). Not only that, the survivability gained from Insight is nowhere near good enough for Ret given how much damage is sacrificed switching to it.

Ideally, Censure will continue to function as it does now for all seals (only proccing off of the main target). This would put Righteousness is a much better spot for AoE and would make Insight/Justice less of a DPS loss.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
the mechanics are not crappy. the mechanics are fine, more than fine now that we are no longer resource starved. ret is about resource and cooldown management. if you can't manage your resources correctly the problem lies in you, not the mechanic.


lol Who said anything about not being able to manage resources? Mana pretty much has ceased to be a resource for us and we're swimming in HP. You could manage Inq with a railroad spike in your brain, but props for trying to get at my argument by claiming incompetence.

Mechanics may be 'fine' to you, and you may find that it adds depth to your gameplay but it doesn't for me and many others. It's the illusion of skill delivered through a boring and tedious mechanic with an unnecessary ramp up time compared to other classes.

If they change Inq and do it correctly maybe it won't be so boring and perhaps they can even do it in a way that we'll actually care about mana again instead of being that blue bar that no one cares about anymore.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14515
11/07/2012 05:08 PMPosted by Tbolt
If they change Inq and do it correctly maybe it won't be so boring and perhaps they can even do it in a way that we'll actually care about mana again instead of being that blue bar that no one cares about anymore.


they did Inquisition correctly waaaaay back when they fixed ret's mastery in T11 and extended inquisition duration to bring it inline with other maintenance buffs.
its only gotten better since then as they continued to address our issues with resource starvation.

given how potent ret's CD burst is, we NEED a little ramp up time.

i've made some suggestions for minor QoL changes that would improve inquisition but the core of the mechanic is fine.

if you don't like the way ret plays, play something else. they are unlikely to change it, and a lot of people like it the way it is.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
16270
11/07/2012 05:57 PMPosted by Vladja
given how potent ret's CD burst is, we NEED a little ramp up time.


That's the whole problem. Instead of finding a reasonable compromise to the matter, our burst is stuck in one extreme after the other, thus necessitating this dull ramp-up. If we want burst, we have to either A) talent into stupidly powerful CDs like Holy Avenger to make up in short spurts for our deplorable sustained, or B) talent into DP and be at the mercy of the RNG gods once again for the same thing.

I'm sick to death of needing CDs to have a chance of matching the burst of most melee's sustained potential. The Inquisition issue wouldn't feel like such a problem if our burst wasn't so horrible outside of CDs or stupidly fickle RNG talents to make us feel like we need it up all the time to not hit like a wet noodle.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
11/07/2012 05:57 PMPosted by Vladja
given how potent ret's CD burst is, we NEED a little ramp up time.


Given that the small boost would be nice in pve (especially for aoe) and how easily we can be controlled in pvp as well as the fact that often we have to use our cds defensively, we could do with LESS ramp up time.

11/07/2012 05:57 PMPosted by Vladja
if you don't like the way ret plays, play something else. they are unlikely to change it, and a lot of people like it the way it is.


Well then you'd think those people would have nothing to worry about then, yet here they are. I'm not going to play something else because I like my class in general and so I will continue to try to improve it. Although I wish we had more of you guys that played mages and warriors, the game might be a bit more balanced with so many people lobbying against their own class hah.
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7005
11/07/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Tbolt
Although I wish we had more of you guys that played mages and warriors, the game might be a bit more balanced with so many people lobbying against their own class hah.

the devs might listen to more player feedback if so much of it wasn't useless

"make Inquisition cost mana instead of holy power!"
"this warrior obliterated me! warriors are insanely OP, but i think the solution here is to buff Ret!"

waste of time when they've gotta sift through all the bad suggestions to reach the sensible
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
11/07/2012 07:01 PMPosted by Hofleurette
make Inquisition cost mana instead of holy power!


holler
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
7005
make Inquisition cost mana instead of holy power!

holler

touche :)
Edited by Hofleurette on 11/7/2012 8:38 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
11/07/2012 08:24 PMPosted by Hofleurette
touche :)


hahaha you're a good sport :) doesn't seem like either of us is changing positions on Inq though, so I guess we can just agree to disagree.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
Inquisition is fine. Keep your pvp out of my pve please. :)
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14515
11/07/2012 06:11 PMPosted by Andarin
I'm sick to death of needing CDs to have a chance of matching the burst of most melee's sustained potential. The Inquisition issue wouldn't feel like such a problem if our burst wasn't so horrible outside of CDs or stupidly fickle RNG talents to make us feel like we need it up all the time to not hit like a wet noodle.


i'm afraid thats the package you agreed to when you decided to play a ret paladin. burst has always been an important part of ret and maximizing that burst is an important part of maximizing ret's damage.
i would love a slight buff to our sustained to tune ret's damage a bit higher, but if ret burst wasn't the way it is, i doubt i would find ret as fun to play.

11/07/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Tbolt
Well then you'd think those people would have nothing to worry about then, yet here they are. I'm not going to play something else because I like my class in general and so I will continue to try to improve it. Although I wish we had more of you guys that played mages and warriors, the game might be a bit more balanced with so many people lobbying against their own class hah.


well people like me do have stuff to worry about. like people trying to fix a mechanic that isn't broken. if blizz does actually listen to you they will probably end up irrevocably breaking the mechanic for real. and then no one wins.

all your suggestions do is make ret uninteresting and mindless to play.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
16270
i'm afraid thats the package you agreed to when you decided to play a ret paladin. burst has always been an important part of ret and maximizing that burst is an important part of maximizing ret's damage. i would love a slight buff to our sustained to tune ret's damage a bit higher, but if ret burst wasn't the way it is, i doubt i would find ret as fun to play.


No it's not, at least in Cataclysm our sustained burst was close enough to other melee in a PvP environment in spite of the lousy Holy Power generation, whereas now you feel like you HAVE to blow a burst CD just to match most melee's sustained potential. Yes, I understand Warriors and such are ridiculous right now, I really do get that. Even so, bringing their burst down a bit doesn't change the fact that abilities like TV are hitting for so little it's hard to differentiate their damage versus lesser abilities in the rotation anymore, which I still think is a problem which should not be 'fixed' by a PvE set bonus that still leaves PvPers out to dry.
Reply Quote
100 Goblin Warlock
17215
11/08/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Andarin
i'm afraid thats the package you agreed to when you decided to play a ret paladin. burst has always been an important part of ret and maximizing that burst is an important part of maximizing ret's damage. i would love a slight buff to our sustained to tune ret's damage a bit higher, but if ret burst wasn't the way it is, i doubt i would find ret as fun to play.


No it's not, at least in Cataclysm our sustained burst was close enough to other melee in a PvP environment in spite of the lousy Holy Power generation, whereas now you feel like you HAVE to blow a burst CD just to match most melee's sustained potential. Yes, I understand Warriors and such are ridiculous right now, I really do get that. Even so, bringing their burst down a bit doesn't change the fact that abilities like TV are hitting for so little it's hard to differentiate their damage versus lesser abilities in the rotation anymore, which I still think is a problem which should not be 'fixed' by a PvE set bonus that still leaves PvPers out to dry.


Most melee? Warriors you mean.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13950
well people like me do have stuff to worry about. like people trying to fix a mechanic that isn't broken. if blizz does actually listen to you they will probably end up irrevocably breaking the mechanic for real. and then no one wins.

all your suggestions do is make ret uninteresting and mindless to play.


Inquisition right now is uninteresting and mindless, you always want to have it, you always want to use it at 3HP for max duration. Where is this great strategic decision that you're dreaming about?

Putting it on mana might actually make Ret care about two resources, so yeah one can only hope they change inq.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]