Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

90 Blood Elf Mage
2540
dalies imo that are important tillers and golden lotus other than that its only if ur either hardcore and just want the mounts or dont want to take ur chances in a dungeon getting gear
90 Undead Warlock
9255


Holy crap. A 54% 'increase' over last year. LOL

Yeah, Blizz is dying...

IT'S DROWNING IN MONEY.


If you recall, though, Blizzard had a really bad few quarters with Cata and D3, that they chalked up to timing and other excuses, lol. Not saying they aren't successful, just that you have to remember the context of "growth."


The last line says it all. They've upgraded their estimated yearly profits as a result of these reports.

That's not a small thing! That's them basically betting heavy that Mists is going to continue to do well.

Trust me, I know that if the numbers were bad, they'd be playing damage control and making up excuses, but numbers don't lie. They're doing insanely good right now and they 'have' to take this as justification for their current 'dailies' strategy that keeps people playing every day.
90 Tauren Death Knight
6160
The only thing I had against mop was that I couldn't fly till I paid more. Gold. And took so long.. and not to fly faster. Nono. Just to fly in Panderia. Not to mention it was one of the last things I could do. /rage..ish
90 Worgen Priest
4025
I will be sad to see you go . . .

j/k
90 Human Paladin
5145
11/13/2012 10:49 AMPosted by Infernalist
Well, I'm sorry, but everything in this game is about a time investment. If you can't put in the time, then you can't reap the rewards.


I don't disagree at all.

The fact is I should put in more time so that I can enjoy the parts of the game that I do like (the social aspect.) For those that do put in the time: they deserve to enjoy it and reap the rewards. However, for the casual player the options are limited suck it up or cancel subscription.
90 Tauren Druid
20500
Zarhym:
By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops.

By attaching a reputation requirement to valor point gear and a valor point requirement on reputation rewards(read: merging two paths of progression), you're double-dipping on our time with one reward. The rep vendors need their own gear rewards to be purchased with gold, and -different- valor point items need not have a reputation requirement. Somewhere along the line valor points were neutered from being 'raid points' to 'daily quest points'.

I don't care to rep grind on my alt. AT ALL. I am fine with skipping their rewards and being stuck with some dungeon gear a while longer and even giving up those echanting patterns. But now there is only one lane for PvE progression and it requires going through ~60 daily quests for a month or you must forfeit in entirety all of your valor points.

Going in to MoP I expected to be able to get my alt into full 463 dungeon gear (which I did, easily, including offspec) and start slowly picking up valor gear to work my way into raids. Instead I'm sitting on the valor cap unable to spend any of it until I grind to revered with every faction in Pandaria, and lacking the ilvl to even que 2/3rds of LFR.
90 Undead Priest
20805
Edit: I don't understand why sometimes when you quote people on this forum - with the number attached to the quote (i.e. quote="number") it will say the name of the person you quoted and in the case of blue text keep the color intact (if it's a blizzard rep) and other times it will ignore the name of the person you quoted and just say "quote" without keeping the color of the text.

Anyhow, ZARHYM said:



To answer your first two questions, the difference is there is a reward structure in place for dungeons, and a reward structure in place for reputations. You want full access to rep rewards and dungeon rewards without putting effort toward both. Purely from a player standpoint, in terms of getting what you want with as little hassle as possible, it's understandable you might not see anything wrong with that.

But here's a design problem in the Cataclysm model you want back:

- Doing dailies over time unlocks access to rep rewards
- Doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear (in case RNG hits you hard)
- Wearing a tabard while doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear, in addition to access to rep rewards

You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do. The idea that, "I have a tabard so this endgame content doesn't apply to me," is gone.


The fact that you fall back on terms like "reward structure" and "double dipping" to justify this content really speaks to the low quality of the approach being taken. It stinks of gameplay not created because the designer thought it would be fun, but because they thought it would take more time. The "double dipping" argument isn't even enough to qualify as a strawman argument. I get valor, gold, those lesser coins and reputation from doing dailies. Is that quadruple dipping?

You talk about endgame content getting ignored, and make reference to Cataclysm. But how much was endgame content actually ignored in Cataclysm? Do you just mean people weren't doing dailies all the time when they weren't the only method of achieving some reward? When did the designers ever consider "doing dailies" to be the standard for assessing whether solo endgame content was participated in?

Not that any of us have the numbers, but I think most players actually did play through those end-game zones in Cataclysm at least once. But, of course, those zones were almost entirely made of non-repeating content. Which is fine. The solo content in this game is at its best when it's not based on a repeating model. The mechanics may not be new or fresh (kill that mob, collect that item), but the mobs you come into contact with are sometimes new, and the pace at which story is experienced moves nicely (one of the few advantages solo content has, an advantage that is lost when Blizzard focuses on a daily repeating model). Now, some players don't bother with that stuff on a second or third character. They just want to skip ahead to the group content with a new class.

That's fine - it tells you that in terms of providing repetitively enjoying entertainment, solo content doesn't bring a lot to the table in this game. Enough to be fun the first time for lots of people, not that great the second time. You ask most players why they're doing dailies now, and it has nothing to do with the content itself being fun. It's only the reward. Now, rewards are there for the other aspects of the game too, but I know lots of people who also enjoy the challenge of raiding, the challenge of PvP, etc. I don't know anyone who feels that way about dailies.

Solo quest content should, in general, be non-repeating. That's what MOST of the game is like up until level 90. You go through a zone, you do the quests there, become familiar with the territory, get exposed to a story (oftentimes now a well-directed story instead of tons of unlinked hubs), and then you move on. You go through a version of that in all the level 90 zones too. In Townlong Steppes you confront and kill the Sha of Hatred. The Valley of the Four Winds and Krasarang Wilds both lead up to stopping a mantid invasion from a breach in the Serpent's Spine. The Jade Forest has the Alliance / Horde introduction, culminating at the battle next to the Jade Serpent Statue. The Dread Wastes storyline (outside of the daily rep grind) culminates in a confrontation between the Empress and the Klaxxi'va that the Klaxxi lose. That's all fun and well and good. That's how quest design SHOULD be. But then comes the dailies...

Blizzard can tailor reward structures all they want. But the structure they develop should bear a strong resemblance to the level of compelling gameplay being provided. Solo content is at the bottom of the barrel, unless it's providing good story. (Some people might laugh at that, but consider the Wrathgate storyline and Battle for Undercity - that was solo content and people had high praise for that). Solo content has very little value in repetition in terms of providing enjoyable gameplay. Great to do the first time, needlessly boring the second time.

Endgame content has not been ignored in any expansion I know of. Not Cataclysm either. People complained about running out of content in Cataclysm, but they never said, "fill the gap by making a bunch of quests into dailies so I feel like I need to log in each day." If Cataclysm had gone through its entire cycle in one year (that is, if every raid instance was introduced within one year), people would probably have a really high opinion of what was accomplished with it. Don't confuse criticism of Blizzard's slow development cycle for criticism that people aren't being made to grind enough.

Seriously, if your design team is getting to the point where someone says to them, "Blizzard, you need to be faster at coming out with the next tier," and all the design team hears is, "You didn't make your grinds slow enough," then it's time to start hiring some fresh blood for the team.
Edited by Torvald on 11/13/2012 11:11 AM PST
90 Night Elf Druid
11035
I would have to say, that doing dailies forces healers to use DPS spec as their secondary. Dailies in general are fine, but they shouldn't be so spec-dependent. Bombing dailies are perfect.
90 Worgen Death Knight
6045
Really, i do not get what goes through peoples heads.

You don't even have to do dailies at all.
I've gotten by with ONE blue from a rep vendor, Nothing else.

I'm almost at lfr. Explain how it's so necessary for me to have done dailies to get to raids.
90 Blood Elf Mage
2540
11/13/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Shylena
i wonder how much people would troll if they chaged everything back to how hard it was in nilla where the game was challenging and raids were hard and you had 40 ppl not 25 fighting over loot


I was here in vanilla, and it was fun. I cannot remember there being dailies. Were you here then? Can you remember there being any dailies?

Instead, we had these things called instances....

Yes, we had to put a lot of time in back in vanilla to be successful, just like now. Perhaps more so.

The difference is that putting that time in seemed like fun doing instances, rather than drudgery doing dailies.


im just referring to loot drops in that one XD
i mean if dungeons were challenging i would understand them giving tabards
but dungeons are a joke now lol back in the day it was like this
WTF ARE YOU DOING YOUR GUNA AGGRO THE NEXT MOBS GET BACK HERE WE GOTTA TAKE IT SLOW MAN
now its like this
pull more dude this is borring... wtf are you doing dude you only pulled 10
what a fail tank he can only tank 10 at a time -.- squishy #%*#!*%
90 Pandaren Shaman
8965
No one if forcing you to do dailies. You Don't need valor to be successful in raids (if your in a guild that wants you to have all BiS then sure but that's your choice). The new loot system is no different than what LFR was before I did plenty of lfrs where i got nothing for weeks.

It's your choice how you play this game man. All this "blizz is forcing me to do this" is all self inflicted imo.


Amen. #EndTheQQ2012
26 Draenei Shaman
130
I wonder if, with the current type of players, would AQ have ever opened? (assuming there was still no flying for material gathering).
90 Undead Rogue
9580
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
Another cool part about this idea is that we can probably make it work through the UI, rather than requiring you to wear a tabard you may not think matches your bracers (teehee). It could be as simple as making it so that you champion the faction you selected to show as your XP bar.


That's not the worst idea I've ever heard. Also, other than the new code that would need to be written, what's to stop you from putting a cap on the amount of reputation people earn (hypothetically) from dungeons? In theory, allow players to earn rep both through dailies and via dungeon championing, but if they do both they could gain rep twice as fast as someone that simply refuses to dailies. That way people who abhor dailies are even less "forced" to do them. Sure, they'll whine about not being able to gain rep as fast, blah blah blah, but some people would complain about free ice cream.
85 Draenei Hunter
8525
Blizzard, no offense, but every time you guys have dailies here dailies there, there is a lot of negative feedback, but you continually make more dailies, and mists makes the Argent tournament and Isle of Quel'Danas look like a walk in the park. I think you should stop thinking people want to work Ultrahard in a fun game, or do 2 years of the exact same thing (Dailies). Everyone works hard at work, or is bored with their same old routine at work, and Mists has you working real hard at boring routines.......CHANGE is good, everyone agrees, change your concepts on how dailies are wanted by your customers, we would all rather have something different this many expansions into WOW!
90 Undead Warlock
9255
11/13/2012 11:05 AMPosted by Holyragez
Well, I'm sorry, but everything in this game is about a time investment. If you can't put in the time, then you can't reap the rewards.


I don't disagree at all.

The fact is I should put in more time so that I can enjoy the parts of the game that I do like (the social aspect.) For those that do put in the time: they deserve to enjoy it and reap the rewards. However, for the casual player the options are limited suck it up or cancel subscription.


This is no different than any other complaint about limited access to gear.

If you want Raid gear, you have to raid. Suck it up or cancel.

If you want Conquest gear, you have to PVP. Suck it up or cancel.

This is what our game is based on. If you want something, you put in the time to get it.


If you recall, though, Blizzard had a really bad few quarters with Cata and D3, that they chalked up to timing and other excuses, lol. Not saying they aren't successful, just that you have to remember the context of "growth."


The last line says it all. They've upgraded their estimated yearly profits as a result of these reports.

That's not a small thing! That's them basically betting heavy that Mists is going to continue to do well.

Trust me, I know that if the numbers were bad, they'd be playing damage control and making up excuses, but numbers don't lie. They're doing insanely good right now and they 'have' to take this as justification for their current 'dailies' strategy that keeps people playing every day.


While I don't disagree, historically, the period immediately following the release of an xpac sees rapid growth and success.

What I'm thinking is that they're lining up 5.1 to release right as the fatigue and the "decline" of players sets in. They could probably launch it two weeks from now, if they wanted, but we still have another raid to get through before then.

It's smart marketing and design, and I applaud them for that. But, like Apple, marketing/timing/profits don't mean your product is infallible or necessarily superior.

Feedin' the addiction, man. Tired of dailies? Well here you go new content! (*cough*withmoredailies*cough*).
80 Dwarf Hunter
7435


You can also get gear from LFR.

The gear from valor is on par with gear that drops in raid. You want raid gear in order to do the raid the same quality of gear drops from....

No one is forced into anyone. It's the perception of some of the player base that they NEED this gear in order to raid, when in reality the design is such that you only need the gear level below it. Getting all of the valor gear and then going into raid is almost like punching in cheat codes into a console game. Or getting to level 30 then going back and killing hogger..

The valor gear is an alternative to the raid gear. It is not necessary to raid. It is not even necessary to be competitive.


They don't need it to raid. They do need it to stay off the bottom of the DPS meters and avoid being benched on progression night for the guy who HAS been doing his dailies, has better gear through valor... and has 2x a shot of getting a major upgrade from the boss as you do because he's got Elder Charms ready to go.

And since you don't get in for that boss, you get -zero- chance for loot, which further exacerbates the problem.

I've raided all throughout BC, Wrath and Cata. I know how this works. On Progression Night, you bring subpar DPS, you waste everyone's time. Only the rock stars get to play, and the rockstars do their dailies because they're manditory to get the best gear fastest.


Biggest problem blizzard has is that people that are complaining are rarely constructive. Like this guy who was rude on just about every post he made. the worst part is when you go look at his character you come to realize he is full of !@#$. several time he claimed to be a hardcore raider but you look at his achievements for is account doesn't look like he raided for then a few times here and there.

It must be hard to for blizzard to have to go through and try and find something constructive in the forums to begin with and then on top of that have to look at the people posting it to see whether they are being honest or just full of %^-*.

You think dailies are a grind, think about the people that have to sift through the pile of crap most people leave here to try and make the game better.

Personally I like how MoP has turned out. I wouldn't mind making it a little easier for alts, but if you read blizzards posts it sounds like they are trying to find a way to fix it too. And no I do not believe you should be able to put on a shirt and get rep.
90 Blood Elf Priest
7305
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

The new loot system for LFR, Sha, etc is completely unbearable, constantly seeing 28g pop up across all my toons gives me ZERO incentive to continue grinding out the casual content I am used to.

And its not like I havent given it time, I leveled nine classes to 90, and going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad, its the point where you get to 90 and you are pigeon holed into grinding dailies over and over or PVP'ing (which I do NOT enjoy). So I canceled today, which is saying alot because I play alot and used to enjoy this game massively.

Some will flame me, blizz will probably close the post, but truth be told, if they don't address these things soon there will be many following suit.


Hey Blizzard, once hes gone can you open the name i kinda like it!
90 Pandaren Monk
6720
why are people making a big deal of 9 90's?

with a level 25 guild and all the boa xp bonuses, its very easy to do! it took me 4 days to level my pally and less for my monk here with his daily 1 hour xp bonus

yes the dailies suck, but if you were here since launch then you would agree that this grind is still no where near as bad as the rep grind in vanilla

so put away the ezmode button and walk away from the game, enjoy the fresh air

ps can i have your gear... oh nvm its boa
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]