Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
If we must have tons of daily quests, why not have a shared, stacking "Teamwork" buff that occurs when you fulfill your daily quest requirements while in the presence of other players? The buff would increase the reputation awarded for all players as long as they keep the buff (i.e. don't wander off for 30 minutes before turning in your quests). This would be like casually grouping with other players without actually being in a group (and messing up any dungeon/raid/PvP queues you might want to sit in). In this way, it might encourage players to actually team up in order to play through the quests faster and with a clear benefit. And who knows, you might hang in the quest area around long enough to meet someone cool instead of jetting back to base as soon as the last fatty goat steak has fallen.


I would love to see this. If you do dailies in a group, you can get a meaningfully significant increase in % reputation gains. However, I can see a QQ fest about that as well.
100 Blood Elf Hunter
5055
11/14/2012 10:02 AMPosted by Tomaxx
I find A to be extremely funny considering a little more than 1% has completed the raiding content. So even if we wanted to we can bearly access said content.


Get an ilvl of 463 and go raid or if you feel more comfortable do LFR then go raid, you don't need VP gear in this game for anything.


agreed. Epics aren't required I totally agree that said
Lfr. And normal 10 are not even in the same universe in difficulty and lfr cant even be used as prep. For 10 man normal was my point on what u quoted

Find me proof that Guilds other then top/hardcore raiding Guilds killed The bosses In pure 463 ilvl gear then I might beilieve this. I'm a full. Beiliever in the blizzard company but when thhey said that I had a hard time beilieving it I ussualy agree with blizzard
90 Goblin Rogue
10150
There is nothing wrong with wanting to stop playing, the game isn't real life and real life isn't the game.
85 Human Rogue
4950
This game has largely become a single player game with some MMO aspect to it. The world may largely be persistent, but it doesn't require you to do much of anything with others.


An unfortunate trend in mmo's these days.
90 Draenei Shaman
6775

The real solution for valor gear is that valor gear should be gated in only one way, valor points, and not being double gated.

Double gating things is a bad design. Rep gear should be purchasable with only rep needed.
Valor gear should require only valor points.


That's only the real solution if your goal is to make sure valor gear is mandatory. That's exactly NOT what Blizzard wants.


What? How putting rep gear as rep only and valor gear as valor gated only makes sure that valor gear is mandatory? You already need the valor points for that gear...

Double gating is WRONG, nothing should be double gated. And we should let Blizzard know that we dont want things to be double gated.
Edited by Saanen on 11/14/2012 10:23 AM PST
100 Night Elf Priest
17095
Look I am sorry, i am not going to sympahtize or agree to disagree here. You decided to leave, then that is your choice. Your wrong move was blasting it here on the forums for everyone to see and troll you. If you wanted to give feedback, then there is a way to contact Blizzard and submit it personally. No one in the game is going to tell you to do this, or do that. If you feel that this was your end, go in silence and peacefully, let your guild know (if your in one) and that's that. There are people in this community that actually enjoy this expansion and its content and mechanics Blizzard has introduced, and the way i see it, your trying to just convince others to do what you are doing. Well you are in the wrong sir. I hope you find better and enjoy what is to come. Happy Hunting and Farewell.
8 Dwarf Priest
0
tl;dr: daily quests suck

If there were any point to having a community about WoW? The game world is entirely fictional. "Azeroth" or whatever, isn't relevant at all in any meaningful sense of the word to anyone above the age of 12 or so.

Sure, there's nice artwork. And some pleasing landscapes. And a generally fun-ish array of minor distractions. But there's nothing really relevant about the fantasy world itself, except perhaps its "art" value.

So its natural that daily quests that force people to repetitively engage with the paper-thin, nonsensical, and ultimately goes-nowhere lore of the game also force them to constantly examine their relationship with the game world and what that means for them in the larger context of their lives.

For a lot of people, I think, the group activities are able to maintain their relevance over long periods of time because those activities (5-man dungeons, PvP battlegrounds, Arenas, Raids) are less about the game and more about the people and teamwork involved. Its your time and effort with others to see what you can collectively accomplish. Those types of activities intrinsically build a sense of community. Or would if they required significant challenge. Most of the game is so plug-and-play (read: easy) you might as well be playing a single player game. The only real community left is the stuff you can't just automatically queue for.

Sure, you can do your dailies while in a group. But there's no meaningful incentive to do so. Rather, there is nothing game-related gained for doing so. You don't get better rewards for getting to Revered in a group of 10, for instance. If you group for dailies it has nothing to do with WoW, so what is the point of the game? If you build a community at all there, that's just up to you, and you don't need to be playing WoW to do it, in that case. Dailies aren't the least bit challenging (for most of us, I hope?). They're monotonous in all the worst ways.

Frankly it is also disappointing (or should my expectations for a world class game company be lower?) that Blizzard thinks daily quests are in any way eligible for rewards comparable to what you can get in 5-mans or PvP or raids. Daily quests are so easy, the hardest part about them is working up the motivation to throw yourself at them again and again. There's no teamwork, no challenge, no greater meaning. Just the grind.

So what is the point of putting such good rewards at the end of a huge rep grind you can ONLY achieve through logging in day in, day out, for months at a time?

There's only one reason for it, its to keep you paying your money to them. Doing dailies isn't about creating community or fun, and defending dailies is just about defending a paycheck.

Put another way, placing "excellent" game rewards at the end of such menial, meaningless tasks is essentially a form of punishment. Its about as close as Blizzard can come to calling their players slaves without actually saying so. "You aren't here to be provided quality entertainment, you're here to mindlessly log in every day, week, month, and keep paying us your money. You want a sense of progression, or certain tradeskill patterns you can't get anywhere else? Here, go do these mind-numbingly easy solo tasks ten thousand times in a rigid singular fashion, there are no alternative ways to complete this content or access these rewards."

Or if they'd like to convince us that this is about making raiding non-mandatory, then start putting all those tradeskill patterns on raid bosses or 5-mans or PvP vendors FFS. Let's let the players choose how they'd like to play the game, instead of dictating required activities.
100 Draenei Death Knight
7905
tl;dr: daily quests suck

If there were any point to having a community about WoW? The game world is entirely fictional. "Azeroth" or whatever, isn't relevant at all in any meaningful sense of the word to anyone above the age of 12 or so.

Sure, there's nice artwork. And some pleasing landscapes. And a generally fun-ish array of minor distractions. But there's nothing really relevant about the fantasy world itself, except perhaps its "art" value.

So its natural that daily quests that force people to repetitively engage with the paper-thin, nonsensical, and ultimately goes-nowhere lore of the game also force them to constantly examine their relationship with the game world and what that means for them in the larger context of their lives.

For a lot of people, I think, the group activities are able to maintain their relevance over long periods of time because those activities (5-man dungeons, PvP battlegrounds, Arenas, Raids) are less about the game and more about the people and teamwork involved. Its your time and effort with others to see what you can collectively accomplish. Those types of activities intrinsically build a sense of community. Or would if they required significant challenge. Most of the game is so plug-and-play (read: easy) you might as well be playing a single player game. The only real community left is the stuff you can't just automatically queue for.

Sure, you can do your dailies while in a group. But there's no meaningful incentive to do so. Rather, there is nothing game-related gained for doing so. You don't get better rewards for getting to Revered in a group of 10, for instance. If you group for dailies it has nothing to do with WoW, so what is the point of the game? If you build a community at all there, that's just up to you, and you don't need to be playing WoW to do it, in that case. Dailies aren't the least bit challenging (for most of us, I hope?). They're monotonous in all the worst ways.

Frankly it is also disappointing (or should my expectations for a world class game company be lower?) that Blizzard thinks daily quests are in any way eligible for rewards comparable to what you can get in 5-mans or PvP or raids. Daily quests are so easy, the hardest part about them is working up the motivation to throw yourself at them again and again. There's no teamwork, no challenge, no greater meaning. Just the grind.

So what is the point of putting such good rewards at the end of a huge rep grind you can ONLY achieve through logging in day in, day out, for months at a time?

There's only one reason for it, its to keep you paying your money to them. Doing dailies isn't about creating community or fun, and defending dailies is just about defending a paycheck.

Put another way, placing "excellent" game rewards at the end of such menial, meaningless tasks is essentially a form of punishment. Its about as close as Blizzard can come to calling their players slaves without actually saying so. "You aren't here to be provided quality entertainment, you're here to mindlessly log in every day, week, month, and keep paying us your money. You want a sense of progression, or certain tradeskill patterns you can't get anywhere else? Here, go do these mind-numbingly easy solo tasks ten thousand times in a rigid singular fashion, there are no alternative ways to complete this content or access these rewards."

Or if they'd like to convince us that this is about making raiding non-mandatory, then start putting all those tradeskill patterns on raid bosses or 5-mans or PvP vendors FFS. Let's let the players choose how they'd like to play the game, instead of dictating required activities.
Well said.
100 Blood Elf Hunter
5055
tl;dr: daily quests suck

If there were any point to having a community about WoW? The game world is entirely fictional. "Azeroth" or whatever, isn't relevant at all in any meaningful sense of the word to anyone above the age of 12 or so.

Sure, there's nice artwork. And some pleasing landscapes. And a generally fun-ish array of minor distractions. But there's nothing really relevant about the fantasy world itself, except perhaps its "art" value.

So its natural that daily quests that force people to repetitively engage with the paper-thin, nonsensical, and ultimately goes-nowhere lore of the game also force them to constantly examine their relationship with the game world and what that means for them in the larger context of their lives.

For a lot of people, I think, the group activities are able to maintain their relevance over long periods of time because those activities (5-man dungeons, PvP battlegrounds, Arenas, Raids) are less about the game and more about the people and teamwork involved. Its your time and effort with others to see what you can collectively accomplish. Those types of activities intrinsically build a sense of community. Or would if they required significant challenge. Most of the game is so plug-and-play (read: easy) you might as well be playing a single player game. The only real community left is the stuff you can't just automatically queue for.

Sure, you can do your dailies while in a group. But there's no meaningful incentive to do so. Rather, there is nothing game-related gained for doing so. You don't get better rewards for getting to Revered in a group of 10, for instance. If you group for dailies it has nothing to do with WoW, so what is the point of the game? If you build a community at all there, that's just up to you, and you don't need to be playing WoW to do it, in that case. Dailies aren't the least bit challenging (for most of us, I hope?). They're monotonous in all the worst ways.

Frankly it is also disappointing (or should my expectations for a world class game company be lower?) that Blizzard thinks daily quests are in any way eligible for rewards comparable to what you can get in 5-mans or PvP or raids. Daily quests are so easy, the hardest part about them is working up the motivation to throw yourself at them again and again. There's no teamwork, no challenge, no greater meaning. Just the grind.

So what is the point of putting such good rewards at the end of a huge rep grind you can ONLY achieve through logging in day in, day out, for months at a time?

There's only one reason for it, its to keep you paying your money to them. Doing dailies isn't about creating community or fun, and defending dailies is just about defending a paycheck.

Put another way, placing "excellent" game rewards at the end of such menial, meaningless tasks is essentially a form of punishment. Its about as close as Blizzard can come to calling their players slaves without actually saying so. "You aren't here to be provided quality entertainment, you're here to mindlessly log in every day, week, month, and keep paying us your money. You want a sense of progression, or certain tradeskill patterns you can't get anywhere else? Here, go do these mind-numbingly easy solo tasks ten thousand times in a rigid singular fashion, there are no alternative ways to complete this content or access these rewards."

Or if they'd like to convince us that this is about making raiding non-mandatory, then start putting all those tradeskill patterns on raid bosses or 5-mans or PvP vendors FFS. Let's let the players choose how they'd like to play the game, instead of dictating required activities.

Qft sooooooo qft
90 Goblin Warlock
9855
2. I disagree. If you start the entire discussion under the premise that choosing to pay to play a game, means that nothing....and I mean nothing related to it worth anything if the journey to achieve it isn't worth the end result.

3. I pay to play the game. It's not as if I am approaching this from an end raiding perspective. I'm not. I don't want those rewards. It's not even focused on gear for that matter. It's about having fun....period.


I don't follow how your response to my second point is on topic. IF I said "better gear is not required to progress your character" then I'd agree with you. But my point is the gear available off rep vendors is not requires. The mounts are not required. The achievements from hitting exalted with the factions are not required. The ability to do eleventy billion daily quests each day is not mandatory.

Nobody is here complaining that they have to form a team and do pet battles. You're the first I've noticed bemoaning the farming mini-game. The problem here is that people want valor gear (and the acknowledged subset that just want to be able to spend VP on SOMETHING). It. is. all. optional. And what's even more awesome is if you want to improve your gear, you have multiple ways to do it, so it's not even like the only way you can improve gear is by doing dailies.

Frankly, the daily grind method is the slowest, most inefficient way to improve your gear. So if that's what you want to do, and you want to do it fast, why on Azeroth are you doing dailies in the first place??

Regarding your response to my 3rd comment... then what are you complaining about?? Skip the dailies and move on to do stuff you enjoy. I'm not getting where your point of contention is anymore.

The real solution for valor gear is that valor gear should be gated in only one way, valor points, and not being double gated.

Double gating things is a bad design. Rep gear should be purchasable with only rep needed.
Valor gear should require only valor points.


That's only the real solution if your goal is to make sure valor gear is mandatory. That's exactly NOT what Blizzard wants.


Ok, lets say Valor gear isn't required for progression and is completely optional - so we will leave VP rewards out of it and focus on the other rewards, such as professions and patterns. When you are an enchanter, and the only profession required to have revered with 3 separate factions to get all of the BiS patterns (Lotus Revered required to unlock Shado-Pan and August, who have the bracer and weapon enchant patterns), are you still not required to do dailies? That's 2 reputations you have to grind from neutral to revered, and one from friendly to revered.

Blacksmiths get the belt buckle and other patterns by being Honored with 1 faction, the Klaxxi, which takes about 7 days.
JC's get gems by doing research.
Scribes get their patterns from the trainer/research.
I'm guessing engineers get their patterns from the trainer as well, I have no clue.
Tailors, honored with 1 faction, The Golden Lotus (again, about 7 days).
Alchemists gain recipes by leveling their profession, and the trinket is a random world drop quest item.
LW's, honored with 1 faction, The Golden Lotus (again, about 7 days).

So what do you have to say to your guild enchanter? "Nah don't worry about dailies, we can down the next 5 tiers of content without the BiS bracer and weapon enchants or just pay exorbitant amounts on the auction house for them. Sure it will be harder or cost more gold from the guild bank, but we can manage since you don't want to take the time out of your day to do dailies."
90 Blood Elf Paladin
17515

But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies." You can get into Raid Finder without any reputation rewards. Sure, it's clearly more effective to be earning some steady reputation with the core factions (which is the point) while running other content, but that's less relevant when an argument is made in absolute statements, such as "forced," "mandatory," and "locked away."

I'm not naive and I know that if you invest more time into your character by doing dailies along side your group content, your rate of progression will be faster. And again, that's by design. But certainly we enjoy hearing feedback about the design and how things could be tweaked to improve the model.


There's one problem that I do not see mentioned or is being unrecognized and it comes with the newly adopted accountwide settings and players being incentivized to play alts. Many players do not have a problem with doing some dailies, particularly during those first few weeks as we worked to get gear for raids.

However, now, players are starting to roll on their alts, after all this expansion finally merged things into account settings. So players after a few weeks are starting to work their way up through Pandaria a 2nd time around, and then it happens, they reach 89-90 and they realize 'oh crap, i have to reach revered AGAIN!?' This is a major problem in design. You merge things into account-wide, player-made progress, yet reputations are not. So now we have to REDO reputation (which most players didnt do in the past or did much later because accounts werent merged) AND we have to grind JP AND we have grind VP.

The bonus would not help much as youd still have to earn rep, then jp (to supplement), THEN VP again. Its days/weeks of redundant work we have already unlocked. Not to mention recipes are locked at the farend of the rep grind AND tabards are not account wide.

You completely devalue account-wide progression by placing this hurtle on players. I had 10 85s waiting for Pandaria, then I went Monk so I had 10 85s and a 90. The moment I found out I had to redo all this again--which by the way, I loved story progression and unraveling it through dailies--I stopped half way through Klaxxi and Vale dailies and focused back on my Paladin, previously my main. Once again I have no wishes on playing another class. Youve sucked the live outta accountwide progression.

Just my 2 cents from a 7 yr vet.


To add, as someone else mentioned, the crux of the problem is the compounded effect of the double gating with this content. I dont mind the rep requirement, I dont mind the VP requirement, and I dont mind that rep is not accountwide, however, all these compounded into each other with these upgrades is the problem.

Accountwide rep would seem to be a logical solution since we've already established accountwide mounts, titles, pets, and achievements. All the arguments that existed against accountwide were overcome and it has come to pass. Rep requirement and valor/gold cost for the rewards could remain and for dailies/quests they could become Accountwide Dailies so you cant double dip or something along those lines.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Find me proof that Guilds other then top/hardcore raiding Guilds killed The bosses In pure 463 ilvl gear then I might beilieve this. I'm a full. Beiliever in the blizzard company but when thhey said that I had a hard time beilieving it I ussualy agree with blizzard


Dude, my guild cleared most of MV before we had the chance to get Valor gear. I had one item from honored with golden lotus I think when we cleared it. We're like world ranked 1500, no where near the top lol. And any real hardcore guild would laugh at our 9 to 12 hour raid schedule.
Edited by Firestyle on 11/14/2012 10:44 AM PST
97 Pandaren Monk
17630
I think what people are trying to say is that they don't mind doing dailies and over the years blizzard has done a good job at it, but this time they kind of went nuts on the dailies. Before it was like you introduced a lot of new factions in the game, but to get rep you had to get friendly and wear a tabard which was the right thing to do since you had so many new ones. As the xpac went on you made a new faction with each new big patch and those 1 faction had dailies, so people did them because it was 1 faction not 5 factions all at once.

That is where you guys screwed up. Having dailies for 1 maybe 2 factions is okay but when you throw in a huge amount like that all at once takes away all the actual play time people set aside to enjoy the game, you have to have people be able to get rep another way. People don't want to log on and think okay do I spend my entire time on here doing dailies for do I go have some fun. Like come on it is pretty clear Blizzard dropped the ball on this one, and hiding behind no one is forcing you to do it is a cheap cop out.
90 Undead Priest
10570
tl;dr: daily quests suck

If there were any point to having a community about WoW? The game world is entirely fictional. "Azeroth" or whatever, isn't relevant at all in any meaningful sense of the word to anyone above the age of 12 or so.

Sure, there's nice artwork. And some pleasing landscapes. And a generally fun-ish array of minor distractions. But there's nothing really relevant about the fantasy world itself, except perhaps its "art" value.

So its natural that daily quests that force people to repetitively engage with the paper-thin, nonsensical, and ultimately goes-nowhere lore of the game also force them to constantly examine their relationship with the game world and what that means for them in the larger context of their lives.

For a lot of people, I think, the group activities are able to maintain their relevance over long periods of time because those activities (5-man dungeons, PvP battlegrounds, Arenas, Raids) are less about the game and more about the people and teamwork involved. Its your time and effort with others to see what you can collectively accomplish. Those types of activities intrinsically build a sense of community. Or would if they required significant challenge. Most of the game is so plug-and-play (read: easy) you might as well be playing a single player game. The only real community left is the stuff you can't just automatically queue for.

Sure, you can do your dailies while in a group. But there's no meaningful incentive to do so. Rather, there is nothing game-related gained for doing so. You don't get better rewards for getting to Revered in a group of 10, for instance. If you group for dailies it has nothing to do with WoW, so what is the point of the game? If you build a community at all there, that's just up to you, and you don't need to be playing WoW to do it, in that case. Dailies aren't the least bit challenging (for most of us, I hope?). They're monotonous in all the worst ways.

Frankly it is also disappointing (or should my expectations for a world class game company be lower?) that Blizzard thinks daily quests are in any way eligible for rewards comparable to what you can get in 5-mans or PvP or raids. Daily quests are so easy, the hardest part about them is working up the motivation to throw yourself at them again and again. There's no teamwork, no challenge, no greater meaning. Just the grind.

So what is the point of putting such good rewards at the end of a huge rep grind you can ONLY achieve through logging in day in, day out, for months at a time?

There's only one reason for it, its to keep you paying your money to them. Doing dailies isn't about creating community or fun, and defending dailies is just about defending a paycheck.

Put another way, placing "excellent" game rewards at the end of such menial, meaningless tasks is essentially a form of punishment. Its about as close as Blizzard can come to calling their players slaves without actually saying so. "You aren't here to be provided quality entertainment, you're here to mindlessly log in every day, week, month, and keep paying us your money. You want a sense of progression, or certain tradeskill patterns you can't get anywhere else? Here, go do these mind-numbingly easy solo tasks ten thousand times in a rigid singular fashion, there are no alternative ways to complete this content or access these rewards."

Or if they'd like to convince us that this is about making raiding non-mandatory, then start putting all those tradeskill patterns on raid bosses or 5-mans or PvP vendors FFS. Let's let the players choose how they'd like to play the game, instead of dictating required activities.


This is precisely what I am saying, Well put.
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