Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

90 Gnome Mage
9310
There are two huge problems with this game.

Weekly lockouts are one. A lot of people log on for a couple of hours to do raid finder and various other weekly things, then don't touch the game after those lockouts are in place. If a player wants to do content to earn gear, let them. I understand that you don't want people playing 70 hours straight to earn best in slot, but you could at least think about adding some type of "diminishing returns" for loot (let me specify, a player can always do whatever content they want to do, and there's always a chance for them to get the loot they want, even if the chance to get that loot lessens with each run, but never reaches zero). It's never a good idea to tell your players that they can't do something they love doing.

The separation of PvP and PvE is number two. Splitting the game down the middle was not wise, the game was SO much more connected in Vanilla. Players got to see both sides of this glorious game, but now you have to pick PvE or PvP as your main focus. This hits even harder on casual players, because they don't invest the time to master both play styles, and collect both gear sets.

Obviously these are my opinions, and I'm sure many disagree.


I absolutely agree weekly lockouts are one of the biggest problems. If I skip dailies (as I do), I only get 1-2 hours of LFR a week and then I'm done with WoW on this character. I used to enjoy running dungeons to get a few valor points so I can get gear down the road, but that's gone now.

On the PvE/PvP thing, I would like PvE gear to work as intro-level PvP gear like PvP gear does for PvE. A little PvP power and resilience on PvE gear would go a long ways to lowering that insane barrier to entry.
100 Blood Elf Rogue
4450
Scenarios do absolutely nothing for end-game progression.


463 item level gear and Valor points helps towards end game progression just as Heroics do. If that is nothing then that is the problem. Things are arbitrarily being removed from discussion just because you don't like them.


Since when did scenarios grant valor points? And I know of only 1 scenario that has a chance of giving gear. Then again, what good are valor points if you don't have any place to spend them because you didn't do the dailys?
Edited by Kelidra on 11/12/2012 7:46 PM PST
58 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
@Zarhym:

You waste far too much of your time explaining yourself, and the perfectly valid points that you make, to people who are incapable of anything but a dim-witted 'the customer is always right and telling me otherwise is YOU DOING A BAD JOB' mentality.

Zarhym has a right to his opinion and his working for Blizzard does not change that. He doesn't have to come here and kiss your asses and tell you that everything you say is right. He presents counterpoints (and valid ones at that) to facilitate conversation, to help people realize that their way of thinking isn't necessarily the only way of thinking (hint: it isn't). I cannot imagine being so obnoxiously narrow-minded as some of you, to be incapable of realizing that.

As for Mists? I have played this game for about 8 years and I've never enjoyed it more than I do now. Yep, the dailies/rep grinds do get tiresome (except for Klaxxi, those are always awesome). But when I feel that way I stop doing them, until I feel like doingsimple as that. My 90s got geared easily in heroics, a little raid finder, and 10 man kills. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, that I have gotten or could get from rep was 'make or break' for me.

The fact of the matter is that much of the so-called 'vocal minority' of this community is a fickle and inconsistent bunch of whiners who can't make up their mind whether or not the game is too easy or if it takes too much work. If its too easy, its for 'terribad casuals', but if it takes work to get something 'everyone is forced to do dailies or forced to do raid finder'. You aren't forced to do ANYTHING. The people who got world firsts and in many cases server firsts, they didn't max out reps or run Raid Finder (it wasn't available). So all that content that so many of you whine about being FORCED to do, isn't actually required to successfully raid.

I'm sick and tired of seeing this nonstop complaining. I'm sick of seeing people blaming Blizz for what they choose to do with their time.

This is a video game. It is here for fun. If its not fun for you - leave, simple as that. Spare yourself the grief of all the terrible things you are 'forced' to do, and spare the rest of us your complaining.
Edited by Jaecelynn on 11/12/2012 7:46 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12900


Then, as I said, you raid with bad players? Why are you apologizing to me? lol


Isn't it strange then that those who downed the raids first, had to do so in gear they didn't get from valor vendors? Funny isn't it, people playing well in the gear they're designed to go into raid with...

Just because YOU can't play well in a raid wearing non valor gear (which is raid level) doesn't mean no one else can.


I hate comments like this. No one is really saying that they 'can't' raid without Valor gear, even if they only thing you can do is LFR because of ilvl restrictions... It's a matter of valor gear being there to augment poor drop rates, but it's being put behind a barrier that seems to be present to weed out hardcore players from casuals, but really just forces 'everyone' to be casual. It's really hard on guilds when half their raid groups can't really raid yet.
90 Troll Priest
9830
11/12/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Kelidra


463 item level gear and Valor points helps towards end game progression just as Heroics do. If that is nothing then that is the problem. Things are arbitrarily being removed from discussion just because you don't like them.


Since when did scenarios grant valor points? And I know of only 1 scenario that has a chance of giving gear. Then again, what good are valor points if you don't have any place to spend them because you didn't do the dailys?


random scenarios offer valor and a treasure box for completing. All scenarios have a chance for gear...not a very good or decent chance though.
90 Night Elf Monk
11460
The "remove rep from valor gear" thing is a furphy.

Let's imagine that valor was changed so it was only spendable on upgrading gear as is coming soon and the existing gear from rep vendors was changed to be purchasable for gold instead of valor.

People would still complain - even if this had been the case going into the expansion.


Care to elaborate on your retarded claims?
Blizzard Employee
I'm not naive and I know that if you invest more time into your character by doing dailies along side your group content, your rate of progression will be faster. And again, that's by design. But certainly we enjoy hearing feedback about the design and how things could be tweaked to improve the model.

For instance, we talked recently to the developers about an evolution on the idea of being able to champion a faction via a tabard. What we don't want to repeat is the design that let players max out every faction reputation just by wearing a tabard while doing other content. So instead of endlessly getting reputation for every dungeon, maybe you only get a bonus once a day. It doesn't allow you to skip dailies altogether, but you can at least pad your rep gains a little bit.


Will say it again, what is wrong with killing 500 mobs in dungeons when you kill that much or more while doing dailies? What difference is there between months worth of dailies and hashing out instances? Bring back frequently dropped items like sunfury signets, arcane tomes, relics of ulduar. What is so wrong with letting us get rep the way we want? we pay to play your game.

Paying to play the game doesn't inherently entitle you to get what you want the way you want. We take player feedback very seriously, but this isn't design by democracy.

To answer your first two questions, the difference is there is a reward structure in place for dungeons, and a reward structure in place for reputations. You want full access to rep rewards and dungeon rewards without putting effort toward both. Purely from a player standpoint, in terms of getting what you want with as little hassle as possible, it's understandable you might not see anything wrong with that.

But here's a design problem in the Cataclysm model you want back:

- Doing dailies over time unlocks access to rep rewards
- Doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear (in case RNG hits you hard)
- Wearing a tabard while doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear, in addition to access to rep rewards

You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do. The idea that, "I have a tabard so this endgame content doesn't apply to me," is gone.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12900
@Zarhym:

You waste far too much of your time explaining yourself, and the perfectly valid points that you make, to people who are incapable of anything but a dim-witted 'the customer is always right and telling me otherwise is YOU DOING A BAD JOB' mentality.

Zarhym has a right to his opinion and his working for Blizzard does not change that. He doesn't have to come here and kiss your asses and tell you that everything you say is right. He presents counterpoints (and valid ones at that) to facilitate conversation, to help people realize that their way of thinking isn't necessarily the only way of thinking (hint: it isn't). I cannot imagine being so obnoxiously narrow-minded as some of you, to be incapable of realizing that.

As for Mists? I have played this game for about 8 years and I've never enjoyed it more than I do now. Yep, the dailies/rep grinds do get tiresome (except for Klaxxi, those are always awesome). But when I feel that way I stop doing them, until I feel like doingsimple as that. My 90s got geared easily in heroics, a little raid finder, and 10 man kills. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, that I have gotten or could get from rep was 'make or break' for me.

The fact of the matter is that much of the so-called 'vocal minority' of this community is a fickle and inconsistent bunch of whiners who can't make up their mind whether or not the game is too easy or if it takes too much work. If its too easy, its for 'terribad casuals', but if it takes work to get something 'everyone is forced to do dailies or forced to do raid finder'. You aren't forced to do ANYTHING. The people who got world firsts and in many cases server firsts, they didn't max out reps or run Raid Finder (it wasn't available). So all that content that so many of you whine about being FORCED to do, isn't actually required to successfully raid.

I'm sick and tired of seeing this nonstop complaining. I'm sick of seeing people blaming Blizz for what they choose to do with their time.

This is a video game. It is here for fun. If its not fun for you - leave, simple as that. Spare yourself the grief of all the terrible things you are 'forced' to do, and spare the rest of us your complaining.


... You do realize that the content has been coming out LFR, Normal, Heroic since this expansion dropped right?
90 Night Elf Druid
8200
11/12/2012 07:32 PMPosted by Tomaxx
5.1 he can, VP gear wasn't even going to be put into MoP but the upgrade system wasn't ready yet.

https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/status/261622734281400321
Is "VP for Rep gear" just a short-term band-aid since Valor Upgrade system wasn't ready for 5.0? Seems 5.1 is very soon.
GC:It was ready, but we thought Valor upgrading made more sense for a time when players weren't so rapidly swapping out gear.


At this point 5.1 is weeks away and there are players who are capped on VP with nothing to spend them on. Sure delay a system that is ready for a bit, though delay it for months while players are capped? After 5.1 launches, dailies will still reward better gear that is on par with normal mode raids and there will be new dailies rewards that are even better that are on par with the high ilvl normal mode raids and all of those rewards for far less effort than if they did normal mode raids.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 11/12/2012 7:53 PM PST
So I wont pretend to be representative of everyone and I certainly dont have the time to read all of the posts, but from my standpoint my play experience as far as getting into LFR and being able to have unique content has been mostly positive. I have been playing since wows inception on and off and have 2 lvl 85s and an lvl 90.

I PVP a lot and that is an easy way to get ilvl up into the 470s if you just max on areans a week (takes 4 hours max a week). I have gotten 3 epics fom about 15 lfr runs. I obviously dnt have optimal pvp or pve gear on this toon but I do get to experience all of the content based on my ilvl (and not being interested in endgame raiding).

So thanks blizz

The one thing I would complain about is it seems hard to spend my valor without grinding rep. I have nearly 1400 and I have done maybe 3 heroics (all lfr and golden lotus dailies and scenarios). I dont think being friendly with golden lotus or fhonored with klaxxi afford me any options. itd be nice to convert conquest to valor and visa versa for this reason. Or make a few non - rep valor items like trinket or ring or something.

Thanks for reading
100 Blood Elf Priest
21360
11/12/2012 04:30 PMPosted by Zarhym
Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release.


I had 14 85s in Cataclysm and I expect I'll have more 90s this expansion being barely more than a month in and #3 already being 89. I realize that having that many level capped characters probably has and will again put me on a very lonely portion of the bell curve and that it probably doesn't make much sense for you to make new questing content so that I never have to repeat a quest. However, having said that, the one thing I really, really, really want back is the option on what zones to quest in. I don't want to have to do every zone each time to hit cap through just leveling. If just three or four levels gave you the choice of two zones, it would make it infinitely more enjoyable, even after the umpteenth time. Krasarang/Valley are good, but fall a little short in terms of how much XP each one offers.
58 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
11/12/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Amorloran
It's a matter of valor gear being there to augment poor drop rates, but it's being put behind a barrier that seems to be present to weed out hardcore players from casuals, but really just forces 'everyone' to be casual. It's really hard on guilds when half their raid groups can't really raid yet.


Because doing dailies makes someone a casual, right?
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Even moving super fast I think 20 hours from 85-90 is pretty quick, and if you did that 9 times you're talking 180 hours of play time in the last 2 months. That's a over 1 full week's time in the last 8 weeks just on leveling characters, and again, that's if he managed to do each one super quickly. That's not counting sleeping or working either, so you take a good 15 hours out of each day for that and the math shows that he'd have to have pretty much played every waking hour for about 20 to 25 days (depending on weekends) to pull that off. 20 to 25 days, in 2 months. Even if he's a ninja leveler and did it half that time it's still insane.

The design of the endgame contend in MoP has nothing, or at worst very little, to do with what's eaten away with the time he could be spending with his family.


Well like zarhym said:

Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.


And to add some thought to this, the fundamental debate is really between players who play a lot of alts and have no interest in really putting time into 1 or even 2 characters, and the rest of us that are quite happy spending a lot of playtime on 1 character.

In MoP, you're just not going to have 5-6 toons to cycle LFR on without a lot of up front time to get there.
Edited by Firestyle on 11/12/2012 7:58 PM PST
90 Undead Mage
11950
11/12/2012 04:38 PMPosted by Faera
Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


Scenarios's do not contribute to "character power"... A slim chance at a RNG blue for a random slot isn't really progression, it's about as much progression as farming Spiders and getting an epic, just less rare...
Having 9 level 90s doesn't really contribute to having a healthy relationship with your family.

It's not really fair to blame the reputation system and dailies for his burn out.
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