Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

58 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
11/12/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Amorloran
... You do realize that the content has been coming out LFR, Normal, Heroic since this expansion dropped right?


And you realize that LFR for each raid doesn't come out for a week after the normal version right?
Edited by Jaecelynn on 11/12/2012 7:54 PM PST
100 Human Warrior
18590
11/12/2012 06:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
But character progression isn't blocked entirely "behind endless dailies." You can get into Raid Finder without any reputation rewards. Sure, it's clearly more effective to be earning some steady reputation with the core factions (which is the point) while running other content, but that's less relevant when an argument is made in absolute statements, such as "forced," "mandatory," and "locked away."

I can only assume the people who feel that way are upset because they care about alts. I stopped caring about dailies weeks ago simply because it only took 2-3 weeks to "unlock" any VP gear I might need. Klaxxi took a few days after questing in Dread Wastes. August Celestials was the upper bound, but even that was pretty effortless. Capping valor is quickly and easily achieved via LFR and a dungon/scenario per day. So the crying only really makes sense to me in the context of going through it all again with alts. VP gear is even less relevant with Heart and Terrace LFR hitting the scene.

The only tweak I'd make is having charms obtainable from different sources. Questing is boring. Really boring. Yes, it's low-effort, but it doesn't exactly make you excited to log in and play. Whether you cycle them through various dungeon or scenario or raid challenges or tie them into new mini-games (Plants vs. Zombies II !), you really should mix it up. Was feedback on the Molten Front really that favorable? God that was mind numbing. Thankfully, I'm sitting on about 1,500 of them :)
100 Orc Warlock
14165


Will say it again, what is wrong with killing 500 mobs in dungeons when you kill that much or more while doing dailies? What difference is there between months worth of dailies and hashing out instances? Bring back frequently dropped items like sunfury signets, arcane tomes, relics of ulduar. What is so wrong with letting us get rep the way we want? we pay to play your game.

Paying to play the game doesn't inherently entitle you to get what you want the way you want. We take player feedback very seriously, but this isn't design by democracy.

To answer your first two questions, the difference is there is a reward structure in place for dungeons, and a reward structure in place for reputations. You want full access to rep rewards and dungeon rewards without putting effort toward both. Purely from a player standpoint, in terms of getting what you want with as little hassle as possible, it's understandable you might not see anything wrong with that.

But here's a design problem in the Cataclysm model you want back:

- Doing dailies over time unlocks access to rep rewards
- Doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear (in case RNG hits you hard)
- Wearing a tabard while doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear, in addition to access to rep rewards

You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do. The idea that, "I have a tabard so this endgame content doesn't apply to me," is gone.

But not allowing other options is effectively blocking people who choose not to do dailies of the rewards of the game.
Nobody wants everything handed to them (well I'm sure some people do) but most people really just want an option. I bet if there was dailies and a capped tabard and grinding mobs for rep/hand-ins people would be a lot happier. And then the real hardcore people will do all and get there faster. Just like the game is meant to be played.
26 Draenei Shaman
130
Actually most of those PAID to buy BoA's, played also with BMAH.

Stop bringing up the 1% world top guilds to back your argument. Not everyone is in paragon.


It doesn't change that it's a valid point. Other people start raids in blues as well and do just fine, not just the top guilds.
100 Human Warlock
18885
11/12/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Kelidra
Since when did scenarios grant valor points? And I know of only 1 scenario that has a chance of giving gear. Then again, what good are valor points if you don't have any place to spend them because you didn't do the dailys?


Since MoP has been released. What game have you been playing?

Cache of Treasures has a chance to drop gear. And the random scenario finder grants Valor.
90 Troll Druid
15435
What is Blizzards deal when you guys acknowledge a problem less than 2 weeks into the expansion but then wait over 2 months (and counting since I don't think the patch is tomorrow) to address the issue?

For instance... Reputations bonuses for progressing faster to exalted and faster on alts?

*I list only this issue, but there are tons on the PTR notes, but I mean why are we waiting for a major patch when you have a good solution?
90 Night Elf Druid
8200
11/12/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Vaedrin
The reason I had no problem with that one is because I was doing it for strict vanity items and did it over the course of 6 months, whenever I was bored. They never felt like a chore because they were independent of my character progression.

And that is the reason why Challenge modes only reward vanity items, to keep them optional. Blizzard could reward 471 ilvl gear from challenge modes and they would still be more optional in terms of character progression than dailies are.
Blizzard Employee
11/12/2012 07:09 PMPosted by Därkly
Do you take this to the Dev team? What I mean is do you collect the discontent and address it higher?

Absolutely! We chat with them via IM and email daily, we meet with them at least once a week to ask common questions from players, and we do a very in-depth global community report every week that breaks down all of the hot topics in the community and offers action items if applicable. Every community report is read by the game's lead designers, all the way up to Rob Pardo and Mike Morhaime.

Some of the topics we cover might not be as easy to openly discuss with the community, but rest assured that's because the necessary discussions and meetings are taking place to really dig into the hot topics/questions so we can form a more concrete agenda.
100 Night Elf Druid
14780
11/12/2012 07:53 PMPosted by Därkly
By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops.


So basically that means that blizzard made a mistake in 2 expansions. Since in Wrath, it was also a tabard system... I see.

Until RDF was introduced towards the end of Wrath, you could only run each heroic once a day. That and forming your own groups put constraints on the rate of rep gain that aren't there any more with the advent of random heroic queueing.

Granted, it was still stupid fast rep gain and totally disconnected from the factions you were "championing," but Cataclysm swung way farther out in terms of fast rep gains plus extra rewards all tied to a single course of action than anything before it.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12900
I hate comments like this. No one is really saying that they 'can't' raid without Valor gear, even if they only thing you can do is LFR because of ilvl restrictions... It's a matter of valor gear being there to augment poor drop rates, but it's being put behind a barrier that seems to be present to weed out hardcore players from casuals, but really just forces 'everyone' to be casual. It's really hard on guilds when half their raid groups can't really raid yet.


I find comments like this astonishing.

On the one hand, you acknowledge that valor gear is intended to OFFSET bad luck in raid drops.
On the other hand, you insist that gearing up in valor gear is a requirement to BEGIN raiding.

That makes no sense.


Unfortunately it's just that I didn't elaborate it enough. I didn't mean that it was a detriment to raid progression, but rather guild progression. It is there to offset RNG, but many raiding guilds are going to have plenty of good players who have terrible luck and just not enough time to run every daily in Vale and/or Klaxxi to get items quickly. It's fine if your guild is big enough to replace people who haven't geared with people who have until they can join a secondary group, but a smaller guild may not weather the storm if raiders get bored and drop for bigger guilds.
Edited by Amorloran on 11/12/2012 7:58 PM PST
100 Undead Rogue
14645
11/12/2012 07:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

Great way of explaining it. Cata made the game far too convenient for players, so now they're expecting that same level of loot access.

Making dailies a big part of gear progression for casual players is a good system. I hope they'll someday understand why this is better, instead of the old way of handing out tabards.
90 Pandaren Rogue
14030
11/12/2012 07:48 PMPosted by Zarhym
Paying to play the game doesn't inherently entitle you to get what you want the way you want. We take player feedback very seriously, but this isn't design by democracy.


It may not be, but it's important to keep your player base happy so they continue to help you be successful.

But here's a design problem in the Cataclysm model you want back:

- Doing dailies over time unlocks access to rep rewards
- Doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear (in case RNG hits you hard)
- Wearing a tabard while doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear, in addition to access to rep rewards

You may not like daily quests. But that alone isn't justification for making daily quests irrelevant for those running group content. By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops. It was super convenient, and also left players with a system that didn't really reward you for doing more than the bare minimum of raiding and running seven dungeons each week.

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do. The idea that, "I have a tabard so this endgame content doesn't apply to me," is gone.


Fine but why do we only get 110 rep per GL daily completed? Also what's wrong with adding in drops like the sunfury signets, arcane tomes, or relics of ulduar? I may date myself here but I remember doing the Craftsman's Writ quests for the faction at lights hope chapel. Random drop- calls for crafting a random piece of gear and turning it in for rep. Why do dailies have to be the only source of gaining rep?
90 Tauren Shaman
9175
Right now, it boils down to the gating, the lack of any other way to get rep, and the tediousness of the dailies that are given. Not sure if I should mention the alt stalling because that is being addressed.

The gating is the big issue right now. Shado Pan and the Celestials are locked until GL is at revered, and to some crafters (especially chanters like myself who need those Chanting patterns because they are THE chanter in their guild), they ARE seen as a necessity because of how good they are for raiding. Spirits of Harmony could've been a good currency method for these, so I'm not sure why there had to be gating here (seems to be some profs that require grinding rep to get the good stuff and some that don't need to do anything, which seems to be an unbalance, anyway). Plus, the gating seems to make into us having to do double work for some of the rewards, which, by the time we get to them, they will either be not worth the effort or obsolete.

The pigeon holing of the entire thing is a mixed bag. The needing to work for the reward is always good, but it shouldn't be something we dread having to do every time. The fear of tabards is noted, but they can be put in with good responsibility and still have the desired result of the dailies. I mentioned elsewhere that an heirloom BOA tabard could be sold to exalted toons of a faction so alts will have an easier time gaining rep (or can get rep in other ways), similar to how the guild rep tabard works now. It could cost JP/VP to get, and could require a toon to be exalted to work. Either way, this is the biggest reason for why alt progression has stalled (again, this is getting addressed, but the question is how).

The thing about the quests being unexciting and just boring to do might vary from faction to faction. The GL ones seem to be the ones that get to a LOT of people because they don't vary that much and resort to the same "kill X mobs" or "collect X whatever" and never actually have you do anything different or actually present a fun challenge. Plus, it seems like it never sends you to the one good hub of the place anymore (the Shado Pan Garrison, which I do admit is kind of nice to do if it was given more often), and always sends you to the lake then to the ruins (which are not as good of hubs that never vary in their quests that much; at least the Village gives a bit of a different challenge, but even then you could get that Gazelle Meat quest, and those damn deer seem to never drop the meat). Perhaps if the GL's dailies varied more and had more quests that actually have you do something exciting (the challenge thing in the Garrison is good, for example) instead of the same tired kill/collect routine, it might not be as much of a complaint.

But yeah, just my take on it.
90 Night Elf Monk
11460
11/12/2012 07:51 PMPosted by Vaedrin
"do it or pay the price on raid night."


This especially hits home after I just got done wiping on stone guard for a while earlier today. I do the dailies because my desire for progression is stronger than the contempt I have for doing such boring things. But not everyone else is the same way I am. Do I tell them(my guildmates) to learn how to play? Do I tell them to start doing boring content they have no interest in, which is dailies for rep so we might actually have a chance next week?

I am stuck in this sort of limbo. I'm done with heroics and can only do LFR once a week. There isn't anything else. I even leveled an alt to 90, got his professions up (Alchemy was pretty painless, I loved it) and now he is in the same spot. I get to have fun one maybe two days out of the week and then I am stuck waiting till next week.
Edited by Zenway on 11/12/2012 8:02 PM PST
26 Draenei Shaman
130
Paying to play the game doesn't inherently entitle you to get what you want the way you want. We take player feedback very seriously, but this isn't design by democracy.

To answer your first two questions, the difference is there is a reward structure in place for dungeons, and a reward structure in place for reputations. You want full access to rep rewards and dungeon rewards without putting effort toward both. Purely from a player standpoint, in terms of getting what you want with as little hassle as possible, it's

...

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do. The idea that, "I have a tabard so this endgame content doesn't apply to me," is gone.


I think I'm in love.
90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
11/12/2012 07:53 PMPosted by Därkly
By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops.


So basically that means that blizzard made a mistake in 2 expansions. Since in Wrath, it was also a tabard system... I see.


In a nutshell, yes. It killed a lot of activities for a lot of people. Now we have them back to do again. Frankly, we just got more game to play and it's great.
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