Farewell WoW, MoP = RIP

26 Draenei Shaman
130
11/12/2012 08:25 PMPosted by Çâthülü
Yes, but we all know the truth that even those in-game who don't post on the fourms agree with this ideology. (At least the majority, seeing from general chat, guild chat, discussions with other players etc..)


Do we? because I don't know anyone that I play with who agrees with it. All I see among my guilds and general chat are people who are enjoying the game.

Now, I can't speak for everyone, but neither can you. For all you know, the majority of the player base absolutely love the set up.
90 Undead Warrior
12845
Finally ready to call it quits, realized today after almost 8 years of playing that I just didn't enjoy the game anymore.

MoP ruined this game for people like me, I have a family, and I cannot and WILL not be forced into doing dailies across all my toons or hell even ONE toon in order to progressively gear my characters.

The new loot system for LFR, Sha, etc is completely unbearable, constantly seeing 28g pop up across all my toons gives me ZERO incentive to continue grinding out the casual content I am used to.

And its not like I havent given it time, I leveled nine classes to 90, and going through the same content over and over wasn't so bad, its the point where you get to 90 and you are pigeon holed into grinding dailies over and over or PVP'ing (which I do NOT enjoy). So I canceled today, which is saying alot because I play alot and used to enjoy this game massively.

Some will flame me, blizz will probably close the post, but truth be told, if they don't address these things soon there will be many following suit.

There is definitely legitimacy to your post, and we've been reading a lot of the feedback players have been sharing lately as we evaluate our endgame progression systems. Even as World of Warcraft evolves over each expansion, and as happy as we are with the experience we crafted for Mists of Pandaria, we always know we can do better.

Having said all of that, I'm just not personally sure we can design a game that's going to feel fresh and rife with content every time you login, if the expectation is that the average World of Warcraft player will have nine level-90 characters less than two months after the expansion's release. I really don't mean this as a judgment of how you choose to spend your time, either. But when considering everything you said in your post -- you mention needing time for family and enjoying casual content -- your noted (or implied) play time really sticks out.

Another sticking point is you brought up being forced to either do dailies or PvP. Why? Looking only at progression of character power at 90, do you not want to do scenarios, dungeons, or raids? What pushes you into reputation progression such that you feel you have to do it x9 and burn out on the game?


First off I think Monk the OP is far off. By saying if Blizz doesn't change things 'many more will follow suit' is a lie. People were leaving pre-MoP because there was nothing to do. So I highly doubt they'll leave because there's too much to do. I also gotta say i find it funny the OP says how casual he is and doesn't want or have time to do all these dailies yet hes had time to level 9 characters up to 90 already. that in my mind is not casual. My true casual friends just hit 90 on their only character last week.

And Zarhym I want you to know there's also some of us like myself that are 100% happy with how MoP is. I love that I feel like I've always got something to do. I was just telling a friend it's not like it used to be anymore where you did Heroics or BGs until you got your respective gear, then you'd sit in town and queue for arenas or wait for raids depending on what you did. Now you've got tons of things to do outside of town and dailies are a huge part of that. I'm loving it personally, and I'm also someone thats played the game for almost 8 years like the OP. I came to WoW Nov 23rd 2004 and I've quit off and on over the years sure. I actually quit for the longest period ever shortly after Cataclysm came out. I just got sick of having nothing to do. I came back for MoP and am very satisfied with what I'm seeing so far.

So while there may not be many positive posts about this Zarhym I hope you guys do know some people enjoy the game and how it is today. And also love the way dailies work. I worry because of people like the OP the game will go back to being stale and boring like it had got to in Cata.
90 Pandaren Monk
12335
Main thing for VP I want to see change is making it so heroics give the bonus honor the first 7 times you run them and just give the lower VP after those 7 runs. That way if I want to do the 7 bonuses in one day I can.
Edited by Niveras on 11/12/2012 8:28 PM PST
100 Orc Hunter
13290
Warcraft isn't a game for the players anymore.

We hate CRZ, it's buggy and they came out and said some of the bugs can't be fixed yet CRZ's are still going strong.

Get Valor for gear that you can't spend unless you do weeks of several different faction grinds.

Pet collecting is a race to who can log in quickest on a server restart.

Raid finder 4% flat drop is beloved by all.

Motes of harmony. <nuff said.

I can't wait to watch other people fight in the brawlers guild after I spend 10k+... Wow, I really can't wait to watch other people fight NPC's. Fun.

So complain all you want. They got the mindless timesink they wanted and nothing is going to change in this patch and it'll be well after the new year before another patch comes in at the snails pace they go at.
90 Night Elf Monk
11460
11/12/2012 08:24 PMPosted by Dalistar
I totally agree with this quote. I have done LFR almost every week since it came out on various toons. I have gotten 3 items and one of them to due to a bonus roll with my coins. I have stopped running Sha, and LFR. I'm tired of seeing people get three and four items a week out of there while I get nothing. Really need to look at the loot system for those raids cause in my opinion they are broken.


I don't even do Sha either anymore. 28 gold isn't that important to me. His loot tables are a myth. I really wish loot could be progressive somehow instead of just completely random. Sort of like those progressive slot machines that, if you play for long enough eventually you will win. But wait, that's what valor gear was supposed to be for. But wait, dailies are holding them hostage.
85 Draenei Paladin
7220
I didn't even read the 36 pages of this thread... I'm too lazy to do so. I think the game has gotten boring. I can't force myself to play it, which is saying something, cause I've poured years into this game... I've quit about 3 times now and every time I came back was because of the people I play with. This time is different because I've realized all the game has become is a glorified chat room.
90 Tauren Hunter
14590
people somehow cling to the thought that they NEED to do dailies for something they WANT (usually raiding)
Blizzard Employee
Zarhym, I get your point about the old tabard model. I do. But there's got to be a happy medium here. I ran dailys a lot during Cata, and WotLK on multiple characters. They were quick, easy, tasks, where each hub took no more than 30 minutes. Completely solo. In fresh 80/85's in quest greens from 2 or 3 leveling zones back. I'd run them on multiple characters in the same day even.

I personally agree about needing to strike a better balance, happy medium, or some form of compromise (beyond the Revered bonus in 5.1).

MoP dailys on the other hand are much, much more difficult, tedious and frustrating. Hence, for most of us casual players, they are too time consuming. Golden Lotus? Takes me an hour to do them. Klaxxi? Another hour. Shado-Pan? Haven't even unlocked those yet. Or August Celestials for that matter.

Doubling the rep gains from dailys is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't fix the problems I mentioned above with the MoP dailys. The mobs hit to hard, have too much life and are too packed in. The quests themselves simply aren't enjoyable for this reason. Whatever happened to that molten front model you said you were going to stick with for dailys? The dailys we have now are nothing like those.

It's difficult to tackle the "fun" factor compared to previous daily hubs. That's very subjective and I, in fact, disagree with you on a personal level. :o

But comparing the new daily quests to the Molten Front, in terms of difficulty, isn't totally fair. When we said we wanted to stick to that model, we meant allowing the quest hubs to have some story progression for each character over time, and having a large pool of daily quests to really randomize which ones you get each day.

I remember doing Tol Barad dailies when I first hit 85. Those were pretty brutal until I geared up. When I was first doing Golden Lotus it was kind of rough too. But by ilvl 450 they were noticeably much easier, and I could complete them much faster. You might be forgetting how good your gear was when you were doing Molten Front dailies.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
15965
But here's a design problem in the Cataclysm model you want back:

- Doing dailies over time unlocks access to rep rewards
- Doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear (in case RNG hits you hard)
- Wearing a tabard while doing dungeons gives you a shot at loot drops, in addition to points you can use to buy gear, in addition to access to rep rewards

Now there is incentive to vary the content you do.


I’m afraid I have to disagree with this. Currently if you do dailies you’re gaining rep, gaining access to recipes, gaining valour points, gaining charms for more loot, unlocking vendor access to more gear and the ability to use your valour points plus accessing mounts.

How is this not the same sort of double dipping as Rep Tabards?
Where is the incentive to vary the content you do?

I think the reverse is true for a lot of players. The multi-dipping nature of dailies can pull players from doing other content that they may enjoy into the feeling that there are so many parallel rewards from dailies that they just have to do them.

Where available time is a constant, if I spend more time doing dailies, I’m spending less time in any other content.

I’d welcome incentives to vary the content. The current system places more emphasis on rep points through an increased breadth of rewards behind rep. Increasing the methods by which rep points could be obtained would both validate and enable different play styles and wider breadth of content consumption.

If running dungeons or BGs or perhaps even turning in gathered materials could also yield rep, the game’s wide open with multiple means to an end. When rep is only available from doing dailies, it’s just a closed shop.
Posted by Zarhym
Paying to play the game doesn't inherently entitle you to get what you want the way you want. We take player feedback very seriously, but this isn't design by democracy.

It may not be, but it's important to keep your player base happy so they continue to help you be successful.


THis
100 Orc Death Knight
8550
11/12/2012 08:27 PMPosted by Keppet
Yes, but we all know the truth that even those in-game who don't post on the fourms agree with this ideology. (At least the majority, seeing from general chat, guild chat, discussions with other players etc..)


Do we? because I don't know anyone that I play with who agrees with it. All I see among my guilds and general chat are people who are enjoying the game.

Now, I can't speak for everyone, but neither can you. For all you know, the majority of the player base absolutely love the set up.
That explains the constant complaints on the forums going towards this issue. If Blizzard doesn't change this setup very soon, in fact immediately, same thing will happen with Cataclysm. I remember back in BC and Vanilla when Blizz listened to the majority of the community and that is why during that time we had the largest sub numbers in all of MMO's. We still do today, yet they are constantly dropping and player interest in this game is also dropping due to this topic. Nobody complained in wotlk when we had tabards did they? I don't recall.
90 Pandaren Rogue
14030
Warcraft isn't a game for the players anymore.

We hate CRZ, it's buggy and they came out and said some of the bugs can't be fixed yet CRZ's are still going strong.

Get Valor for gear that you can't spend unless you do weeks of several different faction grinds.

Pet collecting is a race to who can log in quickest on a server restart.

Raid finder 4% flat drop is beloved by all.

Motes of harmony. <nuff said.

I can't wait to watch other people fight in the brawlers guild after I spend 10k+... Wow, I really can't wait to watch other people fight NPC's. Fun.

So complain all you want. They got the mindless timesink they wanted and nothing is going to change in this patch and it'll be well after the new year before another patch comes in at the snails pace they go at.


Just think, we can all quit for several months and come back with a power leveled character and a spiffy new mount. That's what I'm considering.

Another game just wrapped up a fantastic Halloween event and is getting ready for another badass event. And guess what? Current players can refer a friend and that person's character gets boosted to max level so they can take part in the event in a game they don't even have to purchase. No need for 30+ dailies or rep to take part and enjoy,
90 Worgen Priest
16105
This is kind of a rather silly discussion. I don't see why it seems that the average player these days, casual, hardcore, pvp, pve alike, increasingly seem to think that the game should be designed entirely around them. I have never exactly been the biggest fan of Zarhym, LFRs, or what seem to be excessive daily quests. I too have been playing this game for 8 years, and I honestly do not see what most of the fuss is about.
If we want to have a real discussion about what players are thinking about where designers have hit the mark or not, lets toss out LFRs. That is an issue that begs to question why the horse hasn't been shocked back to life from being beaten so bad. The major issue with LFRs was how and when they were initially implemented and loot abuses. Those issues have mostly been addressed, and aside from having to bring a few guild members in order to carry people through Garalon before he was hotfixed, LFRs are mostly working as intended from what I can honestly see. If people are dying to the floor boss on Elegon every so often, they might learn something important to take with them on normal modes if they so choose.

Daily quests, are they a bit excessive, depending on your perspective, I can see how it would seem that way, but then again, one of the largest issues we had in early Cataclysm was Blizzard having to nerf dungeon content because there was little for the casual gamer to enjoy. Just because something seems required for raiding doesn't mean its ultimately there as endgame content for you as a raider, if raiding is your endgame. It means it something there to do when you are not raiding. Its about as required in the end as LFRs, which is a matter of perspective. Given a few weeks, most raiders won't care about most of this nonsense.

Perhaps lets compare MoP to Cataclysm in this light. the PVE content is simply much better design, unless we get hit with a nerf bat too early, things should be going relatively well on all levels of play, mostly because even players who are struggling a bit, still have plenty of content to enjoy while they continue to progress.
If the final instance of this tier provides a hard fought challenge at the end for even the top end world guilds, it will be a good indication that things are working well.
Its worth noting that the upcoming gear upgrade system in patch 5.1 will alleviate a lot of concerns as well. Pretty soon it won't make much of a difference where you obtain your valor points.
Given that scenario, I don't see why we still have "unflexible" raid lockouts preventing 10 man guilds from choosing to run 25 mans and vice versa, without an added sense of obligation to do so. It has nothing to do with difficulty or gear, and everything to do with being able to provide raid slots to players so a smooth transition can once again occur.
90 Goblin Mage
7560
By running dungeons with tabards, you effectively got to double-dip in Cataclysm by gaining access to rep rewards, VP rewards, and dungeon drops

Well, not entirely true. When you locked valor gear to rep it made it worse. Leave the tabards out and remove the rep requirements for valor gear.
90 Troll Mage
8280
Warcraft isn't a game for the players anymore.

We hate CRZ, it's buggy and they came out and said some of the bugs can't be fixed yet CRZ's are still going strong.

Get Valor for gear that you can't spend unless you do weeks of several different faction grinds.

Pet collecting is a race to who can log in quickest on a server restart.

Raid finder 4% flat drop is beloved by all.

Motes of harmony. <nuff said.

I can't wait to watch other people fight in the brawlers guild after I spend 10k+... Wow, I really can't wait to watch other people fight NPC's. Fun.

So complain all you want. They got the mindless timesink they wanted and nothing is going to change in this patch and it'll be well after the new year before another patch comes in at the snails pace they go at.


Snails pace? lol We're already receiving a patch, and that's snails pace? Previously, if compared to other patches in other expansions, we wouldn't have received word on the first patch until probably in February.
85 Tauren Warrior
6750
Oh a farewell thread, seeya in a couple weeks.
11/12/2012 08:28 PMPosted by Niveras
Main thing for VP I want to see change is making it so heroics give the bonus honor the first 7 times you run them and just give the lower VP after those 7 runs. That way if I want to do the 7 bonuses in one day I can.

I cheered in joy when they changed that in Wrath. Do wish it were here again.
11/12/2012 04:44 PMPosted by Sterria
Personally I never do scenarios, they seem like a waste of time for minimal reward. Much better to do a dungeon where there is the chance of loot and justice points (poor forgotten hard to come by justice points) and they are fun, with the sole exception of Shado Pan Monastery, I always drop group on that one.


I do scenarios on occasion, but yeah they are a huge waste of time for minimal reward. I get a chance at a 463 item.../whoo.
100 Worgen Mage
13260
As a starter I want to send a quick thanks to the CMs (in particular Zarhym, who has been very busy apparently browbeating players - in some cases - trolls) on the forum responses to the questions raised over the last couple of months.

My surprise in the OP is that time required to get NINE 90s up and running in 6 weeks is massive.

I spent the first 3 weeks doing dailies until I was blind. I took the view that while it was going to be a long grind I would be able to sit back and relax later in the xpac.

To each their own, the VP off dailies is a little disappointing, 5 VP, why bother? At least with 10 VP you feel you are getting somewhere.
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