[WW] Haste, Mastery, and GCD capping problems

90 Pandaren Monk
11485
Warning: Post contains math

The Energy/Chi concept is obviously something WoW has never had before. Both Energy users prior to Monks used combo points, which avoids GCD-capping by nature of the ability to use a 40-energy combo-point generating ability several times in a row and use them all up with a single finisher. Monks function very differently with a single Jab generating such a number of Chi that using Jab more than twice in a row is impossible.

Windwalker Monks generally have to use a Chi-costing ability for every single Jab we use. Tiger Palm only costs one, and FoF costs 3 but forces us to use 4 seconds worth of GCDs, and thus is not capable of burning Chi in a timely manner. Practically all other Chi-costing abilities (RSK, BoK, the 3 Chi talent abilities, and Touch of Karma) also take a GCD and only cost 2 Chi. This setup forces Monks into such a combo of abilities that GCDs often become much more valuable than Energy/Chi costs.

Baseline Energy generation is 10 energy per second, but Jab costs 40 energy at least every other GCD. Due to being an Energy based class, WW Monk GCDs are locked at one second and are not reduced by haste. Therefore, it can be concluded that maximum Energy usage is at the very most 20 per second. However, there is much more to this equation. Energizing Brew gives 60 energy over 6 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown, or effectively 1 energy per second. On top of that, the free BoK procs (we'll ignore TP as it generally balances out the 3 chi consumed by FoF) from mastery force Jab to be used every 3 GCDs instead of 2, essentially making 50% of the mastery proc chance be added to the amount of unused energy. With a 15% proc chance (around the minimum with Mastery raid buff), that's an extra 0.75 energy per second. Added to Energizing Brew and the baseline and we're up to 11.75 energy per second out of 20 energy per second that Jab can possibly use. Finally, we can add Power Strikes to the mix, which is one Chi (which is worth 20 energy) every 20 seconds, bringing us up to a total of 12.75 energy worth of resources gained per second.

That leaves only 7.25 energy per second that can possibly be used within the GCDs allowed. This means that, during Bloodlust (which is 30% haste, or 3 energy per second), there is only room for 42.5% haste (with 50% of added mastery proc chance counting as 1% of haste) before full-on GCD capping. Even more frightening, with the 4-set T14 bonus added in (Energizing brew lasts 5 seconds longer), that counts as another 0.83 energy per second, which, after some shortening of math, brings us down to a 34.2% haste cap during Bloodlust. I must point out that this is a number very much achievable in T14 gear with some kind of haste trinket use or proc. Keep in mind that this is only the first raid tier of the expansion. This is also assuming zero latency whatsoever, meaning it could very quickly happen to you.

TL;DR Due to a flawed design in the Chi system, Windwalkers might be the first spec ever to possibly get GCD capped in the first tier of an expansion. Despite sims marking haste as the stat to stack, be extremely careful with your haste levels. If, during a boss fight, you find yourself getting GCD-capped, switch your haste to Crit. Also, pray to the WoW lords and masters that they can alleviate this problem.
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94 Draenei Monk
15245
You're correct, with FoF in our rotation, we will GCD cap by T14H gear, without it it goes into T15N before we do.

One point of yours is how we take 3 chi to stack up TP, this is incorrect as of the current PTR build. It now hits 30% instantly. Also they added a 15% bonus energy regen into ascension, which will give us a higher chi generation per second than the other two talents.

Now, a quick way to fix this is to just cut BoK out of the mastery, make it a flat proc rate, and increase the damage of the TP proc per point of mastery. A better way is to make it a flat damage increase or something instead, but then WW is really boring until you get into the 450-460 gear levels, possibly even T14H gear levels.

FoF itself is a problem, it's probably the hardest thing to possibly weave into a rotation for minimum reward (Comparing it to drain twisting for aff or adding rupture into combat for cata). It needs a big redesign to be more friendly and usable into our rotation. The current iteration is great at lower gear levels, but gets worst the farther up you go.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485

One point of yours is how we take 3 chi to stack up TP, this is incorrect as of the current PTR build. It now hits 30% instantly. Also they added a 15% bonus energy regen into ascension, which will give us a higher chi generation per second than the other two talents.


The point I made about TP is that it takes 1 Chi while FoF takes 3 and both are used roughly every 20 seconds, thus balancing out to about 2 Chi per ability. Stacking to 3 is not covered in my post because that change is already on the PTR.

The Ascension change, however, would make this problem even worse as having a higher energy regen rate than the combo point users makes the issue even more senseless, as giving more energy to the one class that has problems actually finding GCDs to use their energy seems kind of silly.

Edit: Since you mentioned FoF, I think I'll point out that there is a bug with it right now where haste reduces the total channel time, but still keeps the ticks a static 1 second apart, causing it to actually LOSE ticks at certain haste levels, which can amount to as much as 2 or 3% of DPS if you use it under the effects of a haste trinket or at all during Bloodlust.
Edited by Totalchi on 10/26/2012 7:32 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Shaman
8365
So... don't stack haste? If your model does not includes GCD capping and Energy capping, then it's an incomplete model.
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94 Draenei Monk
15245
10/26/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Edov
So... don't stack haste? If your model does not includes GCD capping and Energy capping, then it's an incomplete model.


GCD capping is our highest dps method though, problem is we're hitting it way too early into the xpac. Blizz generally doesn't want a class to GCD cap 100% of the time if all the other rotations are anything to go by as well. There's also a history of the unique masteries not working nearly as well as the static one.

My guess is blizz won't do anything about it until T15 since it requires practically full T14H or majority of pieces on a normal human to get to that point.

10/26/2012 07:26 PMPosted by Totalchi
Edit: Since you mentioned FoF, I think I'll point out that there is a bug with it right now where haste reduces the total channel time, but still keeps the ticks a static 1 second apart, causing it to actually LOSE ticks at certain haste levels, which can amount to as much as 2 or 3% of DPS if you use it under the effects of a haste trinket or at all during Bloodlust.


Actually, I thought the bug was that it's still a 4s channel, 1tick/second, but instead of having this extra starting tick, it drops it off, but keeps the same channel time. AFAIK it only shortens the channel during hero (Which it might not now looking at the hero changes on the PTR)

Also sorry, misread the post about the jab thing, it is a needed change though, getting 3xTP in pvp was rather unrealistic.
Edited by Zephel on 10/26/2012 8:33 PM PDT
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90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
10/26/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Totalchi
Warning: Post contains math


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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90 Orc Death Knight
7780
/looks at thread

sees this:

Warning: Post contains math


/doesn't see tl;dr

/bumps thread and backs away
Edited by Ghatok on 10/26/2012 9:10 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
5685
Can you explain why it isn't an issue for other classes to GCD cap under heroism, but it is for Windwalker monks? Haste is still the top stat for combat rogues, despite them having a ton of wasted energy every KS, AR and heroism.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485
10/26/2012 09:31 PMPosted by Leciel
Can you explain why it isn't an issue for other classes to GCD cap under heroism, but it is for Windwalker monks? Haste is still the top stat for combat rogues, despite them having a ton of wasted energy every KS, AR and heroism.


Of course, but I'll answer this in two parts since it's really two different issues colliding.

The first major problem is that this isn't the same issue as GCD not being lowered beyond 1.0 because you have so much haste. This is essentially a resource cap BECAUSE we're GCD-capped by default. Think about what would happen if Warriors didn't have Heroic Strike in Cata. After a relatively small amount of haste, they would be utterly overflowing with Rage and couldn't possibly hit 0 in a rotation that makes sense, they'd be sitting at 100 rage for half of a fight and it would feel senseless to even have rage be a thing. Because the Combo Breaker mastery also adds to this problem of having more abilities to use than GCDs to use them in, Crit becomes the only stat that doesn't make the rotation feel irritating.... but gear has two stats on it, so we're always going to be getting haste or mastery. You can simply not use things like Energizing Brew, but then it begs the question as to why that cooldown even exists.

The second major question is why this affects only WW Monks and no other DPS class/spec. To put it simply, it's because the ratio of Jabs to Chi-expending abilities is much lower than the ratio of Combo-point generators to Finishing moves. For example, Sinister Strike and Mangle both give one combo point. If they crit, they can give two. A typical Combat Rogue string would be SS --> SS --> (if the previous were both NOT crits) SS --> (If still at only 3 CPs) SS --> Finisher. A typical Monk string is Jab --> Chi skill --> Jab --> Chi skill. The problem here is that both Jab and SS cost 40 energy, yet Rogues want to use Sinister Strike twice as often as Jab gets used. The idea of a Rogue energy capping is quite silly, even under Bloodlust and AR at the same time, because they can still burn energy much, much faster than a Monk can. It would makes sense that Jab should either cost more energy, generate less Chi, or we should have some way to expend 3 or 4 Chi at a time for these situations.

Personally I think that making Jab only generate 1 Chi would be the absolute worst solution, as it would be akin to making it cost 80 energy. The rate of energy consumption doesn't need to be doubled, but perhaps making Jab cost 50 energy (so that you can use it twice in a row if needed) and balancing the rest of the skills around that would be easier. The short and dirty solution would be to make a 4-chi version of Blackout Kick that did somewhat less than 2 BoKs, but that would be rather sloppy and have some nasty implications for PvP burst.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11990
It's a pretty flawed system right now I have faith they will work something out and we are suffering new classitis but only time will tell.

I can say though that FoF is extremely clunky and jab is just a giant hunk of garbage.

I feel like jab should cost like 80 energy and generate 4 chi or something like that but do the same damage as 2 jabs. Actually buff jabs damage quite a bit, it's such a useless ability whose only purpose is to give you something you have to push.
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80 Human Priest
3225
Seriously the Ascension buff is amazing and it's needed for pvp monks. If you pve heroes get it nerfed because you feel bad that you energy cap, my head is going to explode.

Seriously there are two sides to this game, and having resource generation nerfed so you pve loons feel good about not energy capping is ridiculous.
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90 Pandaren Monk
8690
Seriously the Ascension buff is amazing and it's needed for pvp monks. If you pve heroes get it nerfed because you feel bad that you energy cap, my head is going to explode.

Seriously there are two sides to this game, and having resource generation nerfed so you pve loons feel good about not energy capping is ridiculous.


Posts such as these are not very helpful or constructive.
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100 Draenei Shaman
4570
10/27/2012 08:28 AMPosted by Neyzio
Posts such as these are not very helpful or constructive.

That is accurate.

It's very possible to fix WW GCD-capping without hurting PvP. The most obvious approach, and one that I've championed since beta and posted about extensively since then, is by changing WW mastery so it doesn't consume GCDs.

The "combo breaker" gameplay means that you hit different buttons when they light up. It's totally proc-based whack-a-mole. How do you retain that feeling of hitting different buttons and changing up your priority without consuming GCDs?

Mastery: Combo Breaker
Grants a [mastery]% chance for Jab to cause your next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick to attack twice.

It's as simple as that.

Of course there are tons of other ways to address the problem. I could easily think up 4-5 different ways to change WW mastery. And of course you could also drop base energy regen, or fix Fists of Fury so it's no longer channeled (with 4s of energy regen), or give WW some sort of cataclysm-era rage capped warrior mechanic where Chi-finishers consume up to X energy to deal up to Y% extra damage when the monk has over 75 energy, and so on and so forth.

There are tons of possible fixes, once you get the devs to acknowledge it's a problem.
Edited by Slant on 10/27/2012 9:15 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
5685
That would massively lower WW monk APM. Anything relating to energy or mastery would. Would rather see monks given the warrior treatment than the rogue treatment.
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100 Draenei Shaman
4570
WW shouldn't remain GCD-locked. Any reasonable change has to address that. If you don't agree with that, we really have nothing further to discuss.

The warrior heroic strike model of a high-cost low-damage attack off the GCD to bleed off rage works because they have a 1.5s GCD.

With a 1.0s GCD, hitting a button every single second and worrying about bleeding off energy with a heroic strike analogue would be insanely hectic.

If you were talking about my brief proposal of "When you have over X energy, your Chi-consuming attacks consume up to Y additional energy to deal up to Z% additional damage".... sure, like I said, that could work. It seems like a fairly complex solution to a quite simple problem, but as long as it leaves WW with roughly ~15% free GCDs, I'm all for it.
Edited by Slant on 10/27/2012 9:36 PM PDT
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90 Human Monk
5685
WW shouldn't remain GCD-locked. Any reasonable change has to address that. If you don't agree with that, we really have nothing further to discuss.

The warrior heroic strike model of a high-cost low-damage attack off the GCD to bleed off rage works because they have a 1.5s GCD.

With a 1.0s GCD, hitting a button every single second and worrying about bleeding off energy with a heroic strike analogue would be insanely hectic.


Than the first iteration of inner rage, increase energy cost by 50% but increase all damage dealt by 15%. Leave those of us who like having a constant string of attacks to do that.

Not to mention that energy capping isn't occurring short of energizing brew, heroism, or the start of a fight when you are getting RSK and 3 stacks of TP up. I'm sure players are capable of handling an extra button for 40 seconds out of 10 minutes.
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80 Human Priest
3225
10/27/2012 09:15 PMPosted by Slant
Posts such as these are not very helpful or constructive.

That is accurate.

It's very possible to fix WW GCD-capping without hurting PvP. The most obvious approach, and one that I've championed since beta and posted about extensively since then, is by changing WW mastery so it doesn't consume GCDs.

The "combo breaker" gameplay means that you hit different buttons when they light up. It's totally proc-based whack-a-mole. How do you retain that feeling of hitting different buttons and changing up your priority without consuming GCDs?

Mastery: Combo Breaker
Grants a [mastery]% chance for Jab to cause your next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick to attack twice.

It's as simple as that.

Of course there are tons of other ways to address the problem. I could easily think up 4-5 different ways to change WW mastery. And of course you could also drop base energy regen, or fix Fists of Fury so it's no longer channeled (with 4s of energy regen), or give WW some sort of cataclysm-era rage capped warrior mechanic where Chi-finishers consume up to X energy to deal up to Y% extra damage when the monk has over 75 energy, and so on and so forth.

There are tons of possible fixes, once you get the devs to acknowledge it's a problem.


The problem is in pvp monks have the same problem as DKs. They need energy for utility and creating chi for damage. DKs require runes for utility and damage. In pvp you need resources coming in quickly to float between utility and damage.

Any reduction in energy will harm utility. Yeah the devs will make the damage balance out for pve but the utility will be harmed in pvp. This is happening right now with DKs in pvp because of the changes that took place to prevent over flow of resources.
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100 Draenei Shaman
4570
10/27/2012 09:32 PMPosted by Leciel
Leave those of us who like having a constant string of attacks to do that.

No. Being GCD-locked is unacceptable.

Nobody is actually GCD-locked yet. WW doesn't actually become GCD-locked until T14H gear. You will of course have periods where you hit buttons every single second, when your mastery RNG lines up, but overall WW has a sufficient number of free GCDs in roughly 470ish gear that players have right now. If you like how it plays right now, great-- that's how it should play. You don't know what really being GCD-locked feels like.

Here's another idea. Convert Fists of Fury into an energy dump, dealing strong damage but not generating Chi. So you only use it when you have excess energy. And of course since it costs X energy per second, if you have to move in the middle, you aren't unduly penalized for it.

Fists of Fury
X Energy Per Second
Channelled 25 second cooldown
Pummel all targets in front of you with rapid hand strikes, stunning them and dealing Y*WDPS damage immediately and every 1 sec for 4 sec. Damage is spread evenly over all targets.

The cost and damage should be tuned so that it significantly outdamages Jab on a damage/energy basis (anything would outdamage Jab) but is not worth using without excess energy because it doesn't generate Chi.
Edited by Slant on 10/27/2012 9:45 PM PDT
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1 Orc Warrior
0
To be honest, the issue to me seems to be that Jab gives 2 chi. Occasionally 3 if talented (which makes things even sillier.)
Chi-builders** should really only yield 1 chi. This would make monk feel much more like other energy users. But it would also require a change in damage #s to account for less chi that's available to be spent. IMO, the damage for jab itself should be increased to account for this. Currently jab hits like a wet noodle -- and I realize from reading blue posts on rogue forums that this is somewhat by design. But, again, it's a bit silly if you ask me. Current monk almost feels more like a DK's rune system (w/o runic power) where 2chi = 1 rune ... but instead of runes (2 chi) passively regenerating, it's limited by energy, the ability to wack something for 2 damage to get the rune (2 chi), and a hard cap of 2 runes (4 chi) ... then you spend it on an ability that will actually... like... do something.
The design of having everything build 2 chi and cost 2 chi... is just.... weird. The current design could be simplified by dividing everything by 2. You have a max of 2 chi, jab builds 1 chi, and everything relevant costs 1 chi. That's largely why it feels so constrained... the second resource system has a grand total maximum of 2. The visual display of 4 is just an illusion.

FoF is an entirely separate issue of stupidity... there's plenty of threads on that already.

**and ideally there should really be more than just jab -- the 3-stacking version of TP on 5.0.5 live would make more sense as a chi builder imo. Cost 30 energy, builds 1 chi, does damage similar to current jab and applies 1 stack. Jab's own damage would be buffed to compensate for the lost chi.
Edited by Paulbathehut on 10/27/2012 10:47 PM PDT
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/27/2012 09:38 PMPosted by Slant
Leave those of us who like having a constant string of attacks to do that.

No. Being GCD-locked is unacceptable.

Nobody is actually GCD-locked yet. WW doesn't actually become GCD-locked until T14H gear. You will of course have periods where you hit buttons every single second, when your mastery RNG lines up, but overall WW has a sufficient number of free GCDs in roughly 470ish gear that players have right now. If you like how it plays right now, great-- that's how it should play. You don't know what really being GCD-locked feels like.

Here's another idea. Convert Fists of Fury into an energy dump, dealing strong damage but not generating Chi. So you only use it when you have excess energy. And of course since it costs X energy per second, if you have to move in the middle, you aren't unduly penalized for it.

Fists of Fury
X Energy Per Second
Channelled 25 second cooldown
Pummel all targets in front of you with rapid hand strikes, stunning them and dealing Y*WDPS damage immediately and every 1 sec for 4 sec. Damage is spread evenly over all targets.

The cost and damage should be tuned so that it significantly outdamages Jab on a damage/energy basis (anything would outdamage Jab) but is not worth using without excess energy because it doesn't generate Chi.


Didn't want to get into Fists... but... there's 2 major issues. One of which you address partially by having it cost energy/s. The second is that you're not doing white damage while it's being channeled, and white damage is not only a significant portion -- but it's one that becomes a higher% of dps as monks get better gear. So FoF becomes worse and worse, and this would still be the case.
An additional issue is that FoF in your scenario would have to hit hard enough not just to compensate for the jabs ... but the chi those jabs would have generated... because let's face it. The only reason to use jab in current design, is because it's a required prerequisite in order to use actual abilities. Jab may as well do nothing *but* build chi right now.
In other words, it'd have to do a *lot* of damage to compensate for the lost white damage, the lost jabs, and the lost chi. And thus it would also likely have to be on a higher cd. Which would then also unbalance pvp (where WW is already doing very poor) since FoF's short-cd is vital for control.
So in this scenario it needs to build some amount of chi ... or? something else? I don't know.
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