[WW] Haste, Mastery, and GCD capping problems

90 Pandaren Monk
11485
[quote]
Not to mention that energy capping isn't occurring short of energizing brew, heroism, or the start of a fight when you are getting RSK and 3 stacks of TP up.


This is actually the real problem here. It would be a glaringly obvious problem that wouldn't have made it out of beta if it wasn't only under the influence of certain circumstances that this issue arose. Under these special circumstances, buttons like Energizing Brew or haste trinkets start to feel like buttons that you are actively being punished for pressing, which is a phenomenon that does not occur with any other class because it feels really bad when you should be blowing all cooldowns during Bloodlust, but you just can't.

Even more glaringly annoying is that the uptime of Bloodlust varies wildly depending on the fight. On something like Gara'jal, it's up for 9% of the fight (40 seconds out of 6 minutes). On Will of the Emperor, it's up for a HUGE damage portion of the fight in which not using cooldowns during it is a huge dps loss. It feels pretty bad when I'm only in the middle of the pack on DPS, but then find out that using cooldowns when I feel like I should is a bad idea, or that gearing for a stat that theoretically gives a much higher DPS increase than other stats is actually detrimental under certain circumstances.
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90 Human Monk
5685
Combat rogues in T13. They weren't supposed to hit AR or KS during heroism, because they were already GCD capping on any one of the three.

Haste was still their most valued stat, and they were still one of the top DPS. Albeit, there are a couple people who were so terrified by the idea of energy capping that they would purposely gimp themselves by doing things like using a slow off-hand or reforging out of haste.

It was not a loss to stack haste because despite that they still had a good 80-90 seconds out of every cycle where they weren't GCD capped, even in DS gear.

Thats why I originally posted this:
10/26/2012 09:31 PMPosted by Leciel
Can you explain why it isn't an issue for other classes to GCD cap under heroism, but it is for Windwalker monks? Haste is still the top stat for combat rogues, despite them having a ton of wasted energy every KS, AR and heroism.


Everybody is capping under heroism and cooldowns. Ret does not hold off until heroism is done to use theirs, despite being literally GCD locked for the entirety of the CDs. DKs still want haste despite capping during ERW or standing in the fire with AMS on.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
All you people talking about "it not making it out of beta" are off-base. We provided extensive feedback on WW capping GCDs near the end of beta. I was one of the people doing it. We never got a response.

Lots of specs are GCD capped now. It should be fixed for all of them except maybe warriors, since they have heroic strike off the GCD to bleed extra resources.
Edited by Slant on 10/28/2012 12:38 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Monk
18100
What specs are approaching gcd capping besides us? I haven't been actually playing anything but this toon apart from farmers this xpac.
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1 Orc Warrior
0
10/27/2012 11:48 PMPosted by Leciel
and they were still one of the top DPS


Legendaries.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
10/28/2012 01:48 AMPosted by Kallìk
What specs are approaching gcd capping besides us? I haven't been actually playing anything but this toon apart from farmers this xpac.

Every melee spec except 2H frost DKs, unholy DKs, rogues, and ferals is GCD capped (meaning less than 10% wait time) at the end of T14.

Rogues and ferals have the opposite problem, they have way too much wait time, between 30-42% depending on spec.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485
Combat rogues in T13. They weren't supposed to hit AR or KS during heroism, because they were already GCD capping on any one of the three.


The problem? This isn't the third tier of an expansion and Mastery was actually somewhat useful to rogues. AR and Killing Spree are also on long enough cooldowns to ensure that they won't be up during Bloodlust anyways. Haste also isn't as much above Crit as it was for combat Rogues anyways due to poison application. We have one stat that'd god-awful, one stat that's just okay, and our best stat runs into capping issues very early. If there isn't a fundamental change to how the rotation works, by our third tier we'll only be able to use one stat despite there being two stats on every piece of gear.

I'd also like to point out that my math averaged resource gains for the sake of pointing out the problem with an overall fight. If you look at any given snapshot, we already cannot use Energizing Brew or a haste trinket during Bloodlust in our first tier.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485
10/28/2012 08:43 AMPosted by Slant
What specs are approaching gcd capping besides us? I haven't been actually playing anything but this toon apart from farmers this xpac.

Every melee spec except 2H frost DKs, unholy DKs, rogues, and ferals is GCD capped (meaning less than 10% wait time) at the end of T14.

Rogues and ferals have the opposite problem, they have way too much wait time, between 30-42% depending on spec.


"Every melee spec" Includes Warriors, who have Heroic Strike, Ret Paladins who by very nature of their rotation are GCD-capped, as Enhancement Shamans are supposed to be as well (GCDs ARE their resource since they don't actually have one). No one else has a resource system in which their resources are practically irrelevant. The "managing resources" gameplay is supposed to be there for Monks, but the energy part of that is simply missing.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
No. Ret and enhance are not supposed to be GCD-capped. Their "resource" is their cooldowns. Ret cooldowns scale with haste, so they don't get worse as they gear up, but enhance does not.

Yes, every melee spec includes warriors, and they do have heroic strike, as I mentioned several times already in this thread. Not sure why you brought it up again.
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80 Human Priest
3225
10/28/2012 10:25 AMPosted by Totalchi
The "managing resources" gameplay is supposed to be there for Monks, but the energy part of that is simply missing.


This isn't really true. Energy management is super important in pvp. Since a number of utility spells depend on it.

Things that are super important in pvp like... our interrupt, expel harm, healing sphere (will be more important after the patch).
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485
No. Ret and enhance are not supposed to be GCD-capped. Their "resource" is their cooldowns. Ret cooldowns scale with haste, so they don't get worse as they gear up, but enhance does not.

Yes, every melee spec includes warriors, and they do have heroic strike, as I mentioned several times already in this thread. Not sure why you brought it up again.


Different terms once again. Ret should always be on GCD. Enhancement has procs to keep them pressing buttons. Warriors having heroic strike means that they don't get resource capped. The classes that don't have to manage their resources manage their GCDs by being able to choose between multiple abilities and procs, thus executing maximum DPS by making correct choices. A resource-capped Monk makes no such choice as the only spam-able button is Blackout Kick. Our only proc is simply one that lets us Blackout Kick again. There is no randomness except for pressing Blackout Kick twice in a row instead of once.

To illustrate the problem, let me highlight what I said in my original post about the difference between Rogue and Monk rotations. Rogues use energy about twice as fast as Monks do in terms of number of GCDs. Recall then that Rogues were energy capped during cooldowns in T13. If Monks use energy half as quickly as Rogues do, and Rogues got energy capped in the third tier, then it follows that Monks get energy capped much earlier. This is a bad thing.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
No.

Ret should not be GCD-capped. Nobody should be GCD-capped.

This sentence "Rogues use energy about twice as fast as Monks do in terms of number of GCDs." does not make any sense. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding at play on your part between global cooldowns and just plain cooldowns.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485
No.

Ret should not be GCD-capped. Nobody should be GCD-capped.

This sentence "Rogues use energy about twice as fast as Monks do in terms of number of GCDs." does not make any sense. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding at play on your part between global cooldowns and just plain cooldowns.


Yes, there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. In this thread, GCD-capped is referring to the inability to spend resources because of a lack of GCDs. You are using it in the haste-capping sense of lowing a GCD from 1.5 to 1.0 seconds where it will not go any lower. That is not what this thread is about whatsoever.

And yes, Rogues use energy twice as fast as Monks do. They typically use 3-4 Energy-spending abilities followed by one ability that does not consume energy (but combo points instead) in the same time span that Monks use 1 or 2 Jabs and 2-3 Chi-spending abilities. Due to the fact that Jab and Rogue energy-spending abilities cost the same amount of energy, we can therefore conclude that Monks use Energy twice as fast as Rogues do. There are no logical leaps here, only math and inductive reasoning.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
Who cares how fast rogues use their resource? All we care about is the amount of time they wait on resources.

Who's talking about changing GCD length? Monks already have a 1.0s GCD.

Honestly, you're all over the place. You are either completely wrong or simply not communicating well-- and due to that lack of communication I honestly can't tell which.

... anyway, the problem here is that WW is GCD-capping, and doing so very early. WW mastery needs to not consume GCDs.
Edited by Slant on 10/28/2012 6:41 PM PDT
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94 Draenei Monk
15245
10/28/2012 10:19 AMPosted by Totalchi
The problem? This isn't the third tier of an expansion and Mastery was actually somewhat useful to rogues. AR and Killing Spree are also on long enough cooldowns to ensure that they won't be up during Bloodlust anyways.


AR had a second component to increase melee damage (possibly white swing damage only?) while it was up, along with energy regen. Energy brew only has the latter, which means you're only going to hit it outside of hero anyway.

KS I think you just used on CD anyway because either you waste the finishers and lose cooldown reductions or you lost out on the energy during heroism, think it varied based on gear level, dunno I was never sure of the math on that.
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The issue WW has is outside of hero we are going to be GCD capped in T14H, or T15N if you don't weave FoF in. This means by T16 we'll probably end up taking energy brew off our bars because we won't need it. Fixing FoF's design and WW mastery would be a step in the right direction.
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90 Pandaren Monk
11485

The issue WW has is outside of hero we are going to be GCD capped in T14H, or T15N if you don't weave FoF in. This means by T16 we'll probably end up taking energy brew off our bars because we won't need it. Fixing FoF's design and WW mastery would be a step in the right direction.


Pretty much. These are the solutions that I see as possible from least effective/easiest to most effective/hardest:

1) Make Combo Breaker double the damage or cause the next attack to strike twice, not make us press the button again. This would be an incredibly simple change that would still cause mastery to be pretty terrible, but it would alleviate some GCDs so we can have a little more room on our haste cap. Unfortunately, since we still wouldn't actually want mastery on our gear, this would only push the haste capping issue up 5 or 6 ilvls until we get there again.

2) Make Jab cost more energy (probably 45 or 50) and adjust BoK damage accordingly. This solution might take some numbers testing to get right and could have some PvP implications that would need to be fixed otherwise. It would heavily resolve the resource-capping issue by masking the design by simply using Jab and BoK less. This would push the resource cap up 10-20% haste, which means we'll still get there in T16, but we can take that for now.

3) Insert ability that takes 3 or 4 Chi but only one GCD (aka, what I wish Fists of Fury could do). The design space is rather wide on this, and would probably require some kind of overhaul of the damage numbers for each ability. While probably the best solution, this could take a lot of time to get right.

Finally, FoF needs to be reworked as an ability, regardless of any resource or haste issues. The current QoL buffs on the PTR are nice, but fixing FoF and the GCD issue is what I'd like to see in the long run.
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100 Draenei Shaman
5230
Making mastery more attractive is an entirely separate issue. That's very easy once it doesn't consume GCDs. You just make each point of mastery rating provide a greater chance to proc.
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94 Draenei Monk
15245
The other thing is WW is going to need something else if we're changing the proc mastery to a passive. Another proc, not sure what it should be though, just that it needs to be there to not let the rotation turn into a boring mess at every gear level before 90 dungeon/heroics gear.

As a plus, it can be added in earlier than 80, increasing the QoL of leveling a monk.
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100 Pandaren Monk
12255
Honestly, there are definitely some issues with the class. I would say it starts with the Mastery.

My suggestion has been and stands at complete removal of Combo Breaker.

New Mastery Suggestion: Tiger Strikes - You have a x% chance to gain Tiger Strikes when you autoattack, increasing your attack speed by 50% and causing your next 4 autoattacks to cause an extra attack.

The reason why this is so great, is because now you can play around with how we interact with 2h and DW, so people can find what best fits for them and their play style. Additionally it fits well for a new ability to replace the BoK spam we get.

Five Sided Death Strike - When you deal damage with fist based attack, you have a chance to place a stack of Five Sided Death Strike on your target. Upon reaching 5 stacks, your Touch of Death will become active and usable on the debuffed target.

Touch of Death - Attacks a foe who is nearing death, causing X physical damage. Only usable on enemies that have less than 15% health.

In addition to this, I would reintroduce our statue.

White Tiger Statue - 0 Energy/0 Chi - Place your White Tiger Statue raising the chi cost of the next 3 Blackout Kicks performed to attack 3 targets in front of you, and spreading the Damage over Time effect to all surrounding targets within 8 yards.

Spinning Crane Kick - Energy Cost increased due to implementation of White Tiger Statue for WW spec only.

Rising Sun Kick - 15% 8 yard debuff removed for QoL since it unintentionally aggros yellow mobs in the surrounding area.

Stance of the Windwalker - Increases damage caused by 35% (20% from Fierce Tiger, and 15% from Rising Sun Kick) and movement hindering effects applied to you finish 15% faster.

Edit: The reason for the whole of this post in the GCD thread, is because simple changes just won't randomly fix our GCD issue. Core class changes are needed to really balance and handle our issues. While we are addressing GCD, we might as well address everything else.
Edited by Drayjin on 10/29/2012 9:43 AM PDT
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94 Draenei Monk
15245
I don't agree, our mastery shouldn't just increase autoattack damage (The fact that it's really boring and AA damage is a cop out is a different issue entirely), it should really be all our damage. DW vs 2H is more an issue with enchant procs and FoF usage, so the gap is really small as is since most people just throw FoF out.

If we want mastery to compete with crit, it needs to work on a bigger part of our damage. I want to say at least 40-50% of it looking at current top WW parses and their crit ratings.

The proc should be more making TP a damaging part of our rotation, not touch of death. That way we actually have the theme of breaking our jab-kick-jab-kick combo. Touch of Death should be usable at 10% enemy hp though on top of the current enemy hp = player max hp and just treated as an execute instead. Change the pvp 4p to something that helps with our time spent in roots as well.

I don't know if I really like the statue idea (totems come to mind and those have NEVER been fun rotationally), I'd really think that WW could use an AoE chi spender instead of that, but it seems balanced around RSK and TP being used to spend it. I like the idea of just rolling the RSK and fierce tiger damage into the normal stance instead of some new one and adding a new 2 chi spender during AoE (Hey fists of fury could fill this just fine)
Edited by Zephel on 10/29/2012 9:43 AM PDT
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