[WW] Haste, Mastery, and GCD capping problems

100 Human Paladin
13120
it's interesting to have this issue so early, but ww monks might be one of the only classes in the game reforging out of haste on their gear instead of reforging into it. ;p
Edited by Martana on 10/29/2012 9:44 AM PDT
Reply Quote
1 Goblin Warrior
0
The sad thing is what are they going to forge into?

You get hit/exp capped, get haste to the right point and then...what? Only thing left is crit.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
12255
I don't agree, our mastery shouldn't just increase autoattack damage


You completely missed the point of how this works. It's not just about auto attack damage. It's about Haste affecting the amount of swings, and mastery affecting how many swings you get. It's about crit also making these white attacks hit harder, and what type of weapon you're using. Not to mention it also means that you'll stack my 5 Sided Punch faster based on your weapons and gearing choices. These are interesting gameplay elements if balanced correctly. Furthermore, most classes have abilities that function like this. You either can proc extra white swings as a warrior, or get 46% more elemental damage as as a shaman.

Combo breaker will in it's current form always break our GCD, and if it is just made to make 1 attack more powerful, it makes the priority of that ability skyrocket. All abilities should be meaningful to hit in a rotation.


If we want mastery to compete with crit, it needs to work on a bigger part of our damage. I want to say at least 40-50% of it looking at current top WW parses and their crit ratings.


Mastery will compete with crit if you completely rework the design of the mastery.... derp.

The proc should be more making TP a damaging part of our rotation, not touch of death. That way we actually have the theme of breaking our jab-kick-jab-kick combo. Touch of Death should be usable at 10% enemy hp though on top of the current enemy hp = player max hp and just treated as an execute instead.


TP is getting put to a 30% stack in 1 hit in 5.1. It's as obvious to Blizzard as it is to us that TP is boring filler. Making it have more damage, is still boring. Adding a Touch of Death usable at any %hp is a more interesting gameplay change, and helps to alleviate the bridge between losing Combo Breaker procs and gaining 5 sided death strike procs.

Change the pvp 4p to something that helps with our time spent in roots as well.


Fixed with proposed new stance.

I don't know if I really like the statue idea (totems come to mind and those have NEVER been fun rotationally), I'd really think that WW could use an AoE chi spender instead of that, but it seems balanced around RSK and TP being used to spend it. I like the idea of just rolling the RSK and fierce tiger damage into the normal stance instead of some new one and adding a new 2 chi spender during AoE (Hey fists of fury could fill this just fine)


Monks already have statues, get used to it. Furthermore, totems don't come to mind for statues and AoE, and I used to play a Shaman main. We already have an AoE chi spender, I want a Chi spending Cleave, which is where the Statue comes in. For 3 attacks it cleaves 3 targets, and does a dot to all other surrounding targets. Then you raise the cost of Spinning Crane Kick energy wise to balance out the addition.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but nothing you replied to me with seemed like you put any critical thought into the design of the class and how my suggestions interacted with where Monks should be. All you're trying to do is minorly tweak what we already have, and not looking at what we need. Minor tweaks rarely save classes, because all that happens is that they get out of control later. Fundamental gameplay changes is where all the real progress is made when classes do not feel fun or rewarding.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
11485
10/29/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Martana
it's interesting to have this issue so early, but ww monks might be one of the only classes in the game reforging out of haste on their gear instead of reforging into it. ;p


Yeah this is kind of the issue. At any given item level, mastery is practically worthless due to Haste and Crit being worth almost twice as much as an equal amount of Mastery because balancing around the assumption that someone would actually want to use a Tiger Palm for anything other than refreshing the buff is quite silly as it does less than 40% of a Blackout Kick for half of the resources and the same GCD. As we get higher, Haste then starts to fall off the radar, but there's no other stat to turn to. Either alleviating the capping issues or making Mastery not be another thing consuming GCDs and not as terrible would work.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Death Knight
13115
Hey, remember when DKs were consistently GCD capped in Cata? I was even completely GCD capped in T11. (Sinestra, Bloodlust)

You know how they fixed it? MoP eventually came out and relative haste dropped.
Edited by Dayrio on 10/30/2012 12:20 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Blood Elf Paladin
17820
10/26/2012 07:20 PMPosted by Zephel
You're correct, with FoF in our rotation, we will GCD cap by T14H gear, without it it goes into T15N before we do.


Probably why blizzard went with 8eps base to start with but to many whined in beta and they buffed it to 10.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
18100
Hey, remember when DKs were consistently GCD capped in Cata? I was even completely GCD capped in T11. (Sinestra, Bloodlust)

You know how they fixed it? MoP eventually came out and relative haste dropped.


So instead of trying to fix an issue we should just accept it and wait until 6.0? Going to have to say... no.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Death Knight
13115
10/30/2012 12:46 AMPosted by Kallìk
So instead of trying to fix an issue we should just accept it and wait until 6.0? Going to have to say... no.


"You" and "we" don't get to "fix" anything. You can complain about it. All I'm saying is, 3 tiers of complaining from DKs didn't get it "fixed" in Cata. I don't play my DK any more (obviously) but I expect the same issue is on the horizon.

Any spec that stacks haste first is probably going to have that same problem.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
11485
Hey, remember when DKs were consistently GCD capped in Cata? I was even completely GCD capped in T11. (Sinestra, Bloodlust)

You know how they fixed it? MoP eventually came out and relative haste dropped.


Anyone and everyone was GCD capped on Sinestra. That was kind of the point of a 100% haste buff. And no, you weren't GCD capped with just Bloodlust in T11. There's an entire world of difference between pushing buttons every GCD (what almost every single class does), and pushing buttons every GCD but haste not lowering that cooldown. Not having downtime in your rotation isn't a big deal as long as your GCD isn't down to 1.0 seconds yet because it means haste is still useful as a stat. Please stop trying to make those the same issue, they're completely different things.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
13930
I've wondered, what is the monk GCD? I thought it might be one second but have always been to lazy to care.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
12775
10/28/2012 05:27 PMPosted by Totalchi
And yes, Rogues use energy twice as fast as Monks do. They typically use 3-4 Energy-spending abilities followed by one ability that does not consume energy (but combo points instead) in the same time span that Monks use 1 or 2 Jabs and 2-3 Chi-spending abilities. Due to the fact that Jab and Rogue energy-spending abilities cost the same amount of energy, we can therefore conclude that Monks use Energy twice as fast as Rogues do. There are no logical leaps here, only math and inductive reasoning.


I'm not sure if you understand how rogues and druids work. They spend energy AND combo points to perform finishing moves, not just combo points.

We're the first energy class with a secondary resource that is consumed by itself. Every single combo point generating and consuming ability costs energy for rogues and cats.

Simple fix: Put us on the rogue/cat system. Chi+energy for finishers. Problem solved and haste continues to go up in value.

Big problem: Then we're just another would-be rogue.

Another simple fix: Make our mastery less stupid. Either allow the procs to be consumed off GCD (Which would be amazing, and increase the value of mastery) or just completely change it. We have a bland, valueless mastery that's causing nothing but headaches.

The upside with energy capping becoming an issue is I feel less aggravated by our overly expensive and long cooldown interrupt.
Edited by Fatgai on 10/30/2012 3:06 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
13930
What about increasing jabs damage/energy cost so we aren't spamming it like crazy and it already gives 2 chi.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
11485
10/30/2012 03:03 AMPosted by Fatgai
And yes, Rogues use energy twice as fast as Monks do. They typically use 3-4 Energy-spending abilities followed by one ability that does not consume energy (but combo points instead) in the same time span that Monks use 1 or 2 Jabs and 2-3 Chi-spending abilities. Due to the fact that Jab and Rogue energy-spending abilities cost the same amount of energy, we can therefore conclude that Monks use Energy twice as fast as Rogues do. There are no logical leaps here, only math and inductive reasoning.


I'm not sure if you understand how rogues and druids work. They spend energy AND combo points to perform finishing moves, not just combo points.


No, I understand it perfectly well, I played a Rogue for 4 years. I took the shorthand to say that they don't cost energy because Relentless Strikes and Seal Fate or Combat mastery combined contributes the same amount of resources needed for a finisher. Feral Druids have similar mechanics to pay for their finishers. The math may not work out to be exactly even, but the point still holds that they use energy twice as fast as Monks do.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
11485
10/30/2012 03:08 AMPosted by Pandamonium
What about increasing jabs damage/energy cost so we aren't spamming it like crazy and it already gives 2 chi.


This wouldn't really work because more expensive Jabs would result in an overall loss of total Chi generation. While it wouldn't hurt when we're getting energy capped during Bloodlust or Energizing Brew, it would throw off the damage for the entire rest of the fight. Even adjusting it to 50 energy would still be a 25% increase, which is essentially 25% of a Blackout Kick or 15-20k damage before crits. At that point, you'd have Jab doing 35k+ damage, which could be incredibly bursty with Energizing Brew and would create a lot of PvP problems. The entire point of Jab not doing much damage is so that we only use it when we want its Chi.
Reply Quote
94 Draenei Monk
15245
10/29/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Drayjin
Monks already have statues, get used to it. Furthermore, totems don't come to mind for statues and AoE, and I used to play a Shaman main. We already have an AoE chi spender, I want a Chi spending Cleave, which is where the Statue comes in. For 3 attacks it cleaves 3 targets, and does a dot to all other surrounding targets. Then you raise the cost of Spinning Crane Kick energy wise to balance out the addition.


They do to me, I rather not have a statue, it's fine for MW and BRM because they serve a different purpose outside of dpsing, pets and totems have proven to just be annoyances to dpsing.

I'm not saying it can't work, I just worry about stuff like that, I actually like having SCK do plenty of our damage but that doesn't mean we need to shift it over to a statue. Yes, a cleave would be nice, doesn't mean it needs to take away from something that actually does work for WW.

10/29/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Drayjin
You completely missed the point of how this works. It's not just about auto attack damage. It's about Haste affecting the amount of swings, and mastery affecting how many swings you get. It's about crit also making these white attacks hit harder, and what type of weapon you're using. Not to mention it also means that you'll stack my 5 Sided Punch faster based on your weapons and gearing choices. These are interesting gameplay elements if balanced correctly. Furthermore, most classes have abilities that function like this. You either can proc extra white swings as a warrior, or get 46% more elemental damage as as a shaman.


Even under your model, crit and haste effect more of the damage, mastery only does tiger strikes, mastery will continue to be a weak stat. It makes tiger strikes's damage interesting, but not the rest of your rotation. Considering WW's complete lack of burst in pvp, shifting a ton of damage into tiger strikes probably isn't a good idea either especially when blizz wanted most of WW's damage to come from active sources.

10/29/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Drayjin
Mastery will compete with crit if you completely rework the design of the mastery.... derp.


Yeah, into something passive that effects as much of our rotation as haste and crit do, not just tiger strikes unless tiger strikes suddenly takes up a ton of our damage, making everything else hit like wet noodles.

10/29/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Drayjin
TP is getting put to a 30% stack in 1 hit in 5.1. It's as obvious to Blizzard as it is to us that TP is boring filler. Making it have more damage, is still boring. Adding a Touch of Death usable at any %hp is a more interesting gameplay change, and helps to alleviate the bridge between losing Combo Breaker procs and gaining 5 sided death strike procs.


No more boring than our current filler of jab-BoK-jab-RSK-jab-BoK, something punch related should do a lot more damage, give TP a use damage wise instead of pushing it aside and trying to add touch of death as a filler instead when that could fit fine as an execute or as an instant kill to a low hp add.

10/29/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Drayjin
Fixed with proposed new stance.


They're adding 10% movement to our current stance, no need for one that reduces root durations honestly, that could be fixed with making tiger's fury actually make us immune to CCs during the duration.
Reply Quote
1 Orc Warrior
0
10/28/2012 12:14 PMPosted by Primiez
The "managing resources" gameplay is supposed to be there for Monks, but the energy part of that is simply missing.


This isn't really true. Energy management is super important in pvp. Since a number of utility spells depend on it.

Things that are super important in pvp like... our interrupt, expel harm, healing sphere (will be more important after the patch).


If you're gcd capped, you will always have enough energy for those. Energy management might be relevant now... but it won't be in the future.

The problem is that the 2nd resource is poorly put together. Jab builds 2 points, everything of consequence costs 2+ points, but you can only have a max of 4.
The system may as well reward 1 pt for Jab, 1 pt to spend everything, with a maximum of 2 chi. You'd be in the same situation. That is, fundamentally, why it is so constrained and limited.

Two options I can imagine...
- The combo-builder (currently jab) gives 1 point and did a respectable amount of damage to compensate for lost chi (less chi ... less kicks...) This could either be done by buffing jab directly, or giving WW a unique combo-builder that serves this purpose. In the same way that feral gets mangle while everyone else has claw.

- Have chi-using abilities cost energy and chi, with increased damage.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
6210
I dont have too much experience as a ww but i for a fact run into problems such as chi maxed out and having tiger/black mastery procs whilr also energy capping. The mastery proc not usig a gcd sounds amazing. Also i dont get why we can get stacks for using our mastery procs :-(. As much as im enjoying ww things are just popping up with tthe specs i dont like. Also durig lust i wish i could use my energy and chi faster :-(
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Monk
0
Kids crying over silly 1st world problems. We're in the first tier of the expansion. It wouldn't look too good to keep changing aspects of the game. Blizz will put a team together to brain crunch numbers, and implement changes in next tier. Seirously crying this much over a problem that doesnt really exsist yet is pretty disgusting to read. You do not own the game stop trying to put your 2 cents in on ways to change it to your liking.


We already know there will be an issue very very soon with heroic gear from simming and people reaching those issues already due to high gear levels. And blizzard has always taken feedback, if they respond to it or not, welll... Right now monks are complaining how we have a plateau, and once we reach this we have very bad scaling after it, while every other class will be able to keep moving up in their roles with gear.

About our master, we already know this type of mastery fails, looking at sims and the relative worth of mastery, along with history (Ret pally original mastery, which iirc was just as bad) we can see this mastery is due the same course.
Reply Quote
100 Pandaren Monk
12255
Internet Ragehard


Constructive. Comes into thread not about them, with legit issues, and belittles everyone. My advice, please never post again until you mature.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]