[WW] Haste, Mastery, and GCD capping problems

90 Pandaren Monk
3605
Seriously the Ascension buff is amazing and it's needed for pvp monks. If you pve heroes get it nerfed because you feel bad that you energy cap, my head is going to explode.

Seriously there are two sides to this game, and having resource generation nerfed so you pve loons feel good about not energy capping is ridiculous.


Posts such as these are not very helpful or constructive.


i'll make it helpful lol.

All this talk about energy/gcd capping is nonsense even with ascention's +15% energy regen. There is reforging and stuff and there's no way (unless MAYBE a 100% haste build but even then i doubt it) to energy/gcd cap at 460ish ilvl. If energy/gcd capping becomes an issue in raid gear just reforge haste to crit and gem for something other than haste.. its not rocket science. use that potential energy/gcd "cap" from the raid gear to get more crit or agi instead of piling on the haste like you would at 460ish ilvl.
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100 Draenei Shaman
4895
You're right, WW doesn't GCD-cap until T14H gear, around ilvl ~500. But of course T15 normal gear will be higher than ilvl 500, right?

As for reforging out of haste, obviously you'll do that as values change when you hit the GCD cap, but the problem is that you do it exactly when you're GCD-capped, because haste has a higher value than crit (and obviously much higher than the awful WW mastery) before that point.

Slightly different results if you skip fists of fury, as I honestly believe all WW monks should be doing. Those results are slightly looser on GCDs, but really anything under 10% is effectively completely GCD locked once you include human reaction time, server lag, and network latency. In those results, even though it is also GCD-locked, haste remains significantly higher value than crit. Not by a little; by a lot.

WW DW T14H Profile
Wait time: 2.23% (ie, completely GCD-capped)
Haste: 1.30
Crit: 1.36
Mastery: 0.55

WW DW T14H Profile - No FoF
Wait time: 6.11% (also completely GCD-capped)
Haste: 1.74
Crit: 1.40
Mastery: 0.79

We brought this up near the end of beta, and it is progressing exactly as anticipated. WW is going to be completely GCD-locked. It is unavoidable until mastery is changed to not consume GCDs or GCDs are freed up elsewhere. It will be changed eventually. This will happen.

Unfortunately, the devs often seem to choose the easiest solution without considering the gameplay impact. In other words, they are overwhelmingly likely to drop base energy regen to 8.33/sec. And if you were in beta, you know how WW plays with 8.33 energy per second. Like a pig.

That's why I post in these threads, to push for what I believe to be the best solution, changing WW mastery. It has an extremely low value compared to the other secondary stats, much like Unholy's mastery in the beginning of Cataclysm. Also like Unholy's mastery, you can't just "buff it", give it a higher proc chance per rating point, because that exacerbates the problem, in this case consuming even more GCDs. The only way to make WW like mastery is to change how it works-- and at the same time, free up some GCDs too.
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100 Pandaren Monk
6190
^ you my friend are completely right. Our mastery needs to be redone. Also anyone who is complaining about gcd capped needs to reforge out of haste. I am at 6700 haste at which point crit is taking over. At the moment im not dropping haste untill i get a bit more gear. Only real problem i see is during blood lust i cant spend my chi energy fast enough because pf mastery procs locking me out and using up gcds. If our mastery procs stop using gcds it would allow us to use up our energy and dump the chi. Yes you still will find a spot for energy to pool and need of chi to dump but it will allow us to adjust to it.

what i have in mind for mastery is double blackout kick damage and keep yhe free tiger palm.
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90 Night Elf Monk
8430
I kind of like the idea about mastery causing attacks to do double damage or hit twice. I'm not a fan of jacking with energy costs because the class is not fun when you have to wait on energy. If I wanted that kind of gameplay, I'd play my druid. I like being close to the GCD cap. That is active. It's fun. They just need to make the mastery scale damage in some way, shape, or form.

Edit: I think what they could possibly due to fix haste would be to give us a self buff we can blow (either a toggle or a 20-30 second duration) that converts haste directly into damage.

Thundering Strikes - You focus your energy into each attack, increasing damage by x%, but reduces your haste by y%.

That way, on heroism you could simply dump the excess haste. Not exactly glamorous, but it would work.
Edited by Lightning on 12/14/2012 8:56 AM PST
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100 Draenei Shaman
4895
There's a different between "close to GCD capping" and "GCD capped". If you're in 470ish gear, you are close to capping. You have around 11% wait time, depending on whether you skip FoF or not. When you're completely GCD-capped, you're also hitting full energy all the time. It feels bad. And of course there are all kinds of other problems being GCD-capped which I won't get into here because I think we basically agree that it's bad.

My preferred solution to mastery is as follows. Each Jab would still give two independent chances to work on TP and/or BoK just like current mastery.

Mastery: Combo Breaker
Grants a [mastery]% chance for Jab to cause your next Tiger Palm or Blackout Kick to attack twice.
Edited by Slant on 12/14/2012 10:03 AM PST
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Instead of changing mastery to make TP or BoK hit twice, why not change it to make mastery "grant a chance for Jab to cause your next TP or BoK to have a 100% crit chance" That takes away from the added GCD, and leaves us a little more balanced, rather than a "double attack"

I say this because both attacks would then be capable of a crit, making our Mastery a tad bit overpowered.
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90 Human Monk
6340
necro thread? WW mastery is getting changed for 5.2...
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100 Draenei Shaman
4895
Yeah was surprised to see this one pop up again.

While it's awesome that they changed mastery to not consume GCDs, they left combo breaker in the game at 12%, so GCDs will remain tight. It won't get worse with mastery on gear, but there's still an inflection point where WW is completely GCD-locked, because haste remains the best secondary stat and the 12% combo breaker consumes a ton of GCDs. But like I said, it's a great first step.

A great second step would be to make WW prefer crit or the new mastery to haste. And that's pretty easy now-- just buff the new mastery until it's unequivocally superior to haste and WW reforges to it.

Or alternatively, buff Power Strikes and Chi Brew until they're similarly superior to Ascension for WW. Or even equivalent-- if they're actually balanced, WW will use Ascension at lower gear levels then switch once they gear up and run out of GCDs. That would make a fair amount of sense, IMO.
Edited by Slant on 1/1/2013 1:27 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
18100
Rather prefer ascension as a whole now. It'd be hard to balance energy gain vs chi gain unless the energy gain was static.

I find right now that I"m actually putting out a bit more moving away from haste. I suppose you could argue good RNG vs bad, but I'm feel a good bit better since I swapped and started using FoF as close to CD as I can assuming I won't energy cap.
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I hadn't read the patch notes for the upcoming patch. Now that I have I'm anxious to see how the stat priorities change, considering how much faster TB will be able to stack.
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90 Pandaren Monk
18100
In my current gear I'll be losing 10% on Combo Breaker after raid buffs, that means we'll spend less Chi per minute than we do now by a bit but the stacks will still come quite quickly.
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90 Human Monk
6340
on the plus side combo breaker will now come at level 12 i beleive, that should spice things up for leveling monks. Lord knows WW felt pretty dull till i got rsk
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100 Draenei Shaman
4895
It's level 15 actually and yeah, that will help a bit.

They still need to switch FoF and RsK for leveling monks, though. Sure, it'll confuse players when they login to their level 19 or whatever monk and no longer have FoF. Very true. But the improvement in leveling from getting RsK earlier is worth it.

Also, while the RsK animation isn't so wonderful, the FoF animation is awful. It's just punching straight ahead, alternating fists, over and over for 4s. Really weak. We kept hearing about how great monk animations would be, but IMO only Blackout Kick looks cool.
Edited by Slant on 1/1/2013 5:45 PM PST
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100 Pandaren Monk
6190
Well at the moment i dropped my haste by alot and turned into crit... More dps and less energy capping during lust. And haste isnt best secondary stat at high ilvls.
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100 Draenei Shaman
4895
01/02/2013 08:16 AMPosted by Kegsmash
Well at the moment i dropped my haste by alot and turned into crit... More dps and less energy capping during lust. And haste isnt best secondary stat at high ilvls.

Only because you're GCD-capped at high ilvls, which is kinda the point.
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80 Human Priest
3225
It's level 15 actually and yeah, that will help a bit.

They still need to switch FoF and RsK for leveling monks, though. Sure, it'll confuse players when they login to their level 19 or whatever monk and no longer have FoF. Very true. But the improvement in leveling from getting RsK earlier is worth it.

Also, while the RsK animation isn't so wonderful, the FoF animation is awful. It's just punching straight ahead, alternating fists, over and over for 4s. Really weak. We kept hearing about how great monk animations would be, but IMO only Blackout Kick looks cool.


See I think FoF is one of the better looking monk animations especially on Panda males.
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100 Draenei Shaman
4895
You think punching straight ahead looks good? Shrug, diff'rent strokes.
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94 Goblin Warlock
9210

Also, while the RsK animation isn't so wonderful, the FoF animation is awful. It's just punching straight ahead, alternating fists, over and over for 4s. Really weak.

Think they were going for a 'Fist of the North Star' kind of look, but it's too slow and doesn't have any flare unfortunately.

Most disappointing for me though has to be Leg Sweep. Was pretty bummed when I first grabbed it and it was just a repurposed SCK.

We kept hearing about how great monk animations would be, but IMO only Blackout Kick looks cool.

The custom casting animations Mistweavers get are pretty nifty.

But yeah, I've noticed most of the animations I've really liked are just Pandaren specific things that happen to look monkish.
Edited by Leviathan on 1/2/2013 11:49 AM PST
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