Why are dungeons so easy now?

(Locked)

90 Draenei Paladin
11490
They've been easy since Wrath.
90 Worgen Warlock
10995
11/06/2012 11:58 AMPosted by Kev
While the current faceroll heroics (wotlk/cata all over again) suck and are just as bad as dailies for grind factor, at least you can do them with random scrubs.


To be fair, the only heroics in cata that were faceroll at the correct gear level were the HoT dungeons in 4.3. all the original heroics and the ZA/ZG ones were actually moderatly difficult to difficult in the correct gear for the dungeon.
90 Troll Druid
4855
To me this is the greatest tragedy to ever hit WoW. Of course this is only my opinion, but in days past, I took a lot of pride in leading a group through the (non-linear) dungeons, and explaining what was up, what to CC, what mob to interrupt/kill first, etc. It was challenging, fun, and honestly I met WAY more people this way as well. Forming a group was also a good way to meet people, you had to actually talk to one another... dear lord not TYPING!!

There's literally 0 incentive to join a group or talk to someone these days.... tragic.

I actually find myself not even enjoying heroics anymore. At least in Cata I could race against the clock in the Zandalari heroics, and that required a modicum of skill and coordination to do.... the current dungeons are literally a joke.

Why not make heroics fun again by adding something that gives it an element of excitement. Like I said, something like the bear runs from Cata, or going on a throw-back to Classic, something like Undead Strat and the timer you had to race against to down the Baron for your Tier 0.5 set quest. Make something like this (or maybe a quest chain that takes you into a couple different heroics/scenarios/areas of the world) as the stop-gap measure between dungeons and normal mode raiding, don't put ALL the epics gated behind dailies/rep. Reward the skill of the players - I know we're trying to cater to everyone these days, but at some point you have to draw a line in the sand, set a bar. If you can't pass it, you simply can't pass it, and you need to either go upgrade your gear elsewhere to do so, or you do some research and learn to maximize your dps, or healing or tanking, whatever it may be (or you quit). THEN you come back and knock it out of the park. Those who want to "experience the content and don't care about loot" (a thinly-veiled "we want epix too" argument in my opinion, for those who can't/don't want to raid) can do normal modes to see the content and gear for LFR (in addition to dailies, etc).

I know not everyone feels this way but come on now, I think pretty much everyone can agree that heroics these days do not feel even remotely Heroic in any way shape or form, and grinding out a reputation to get epics just feels like a cop out to me. Am I doing it? Sure. Is it mindlessly boring (other than my farm which I was surprised I actually loved!)? Yes.

You want to get people out in the game world? Here's your chance. Make a lengthy chain quest that takes you all over Pandaria, at the end of which is a sweet epic on par with LFR loot. Make it so you can't do it all in one day since you need to extend content. I get that. Or here's an idea, make it so you can only go after 1 piece at a time to also help extend that content (let us pick which one, if I need a necklace I can focus on that first, etc).

On a totally unrelated note, for the first time since TBC, I actually find myself loving the game world, and noticing it for what it is. Walking through Karasang Wilds feels like going into STV for the first time. Valley of Four Winds is pretty neat, a landscape dotted with farms, etc. My point is, fantastic job on the presentation for this expansion Blizzard, props to you guys for that.

I think you missed the mark on dailies though, and I also think that some of the concepts I outlined above would be a great alternative way to gearing, both for casual and hardcore, that avoid the current grip (dailies - which can still be a part of the game) and reach your stated goal of getting people out in the world.

Anyway yeah, that turned out WAY longer than I expected.

TL;DR - the easy state of the current heroics is tragic, and here are some ideas I'm throwing about as ways to get around that, and to get around dailies/get people out in the world.
Challenge modes requires CC and coordination and whatnot...

Normal mode: Tank spank.
Heroic mode: Tank spank. Also stay out of fire- although that's usually optional.
Challenge mode: Remember BC dungeons? They're harder than that.


Really? Awesome! I remember then BC Heroics came out. Wow that was very nice and hard. With nice rewards tho, epic gear and gems. That was good old time.

If challenges are the same way than BC heroics, I'll be very happy to use finally my cc :D

Challenge modes are even better because 1) they're tough and will require CC to help mitigate the damage the tank is taking and 2) the gear scales down to 463 so you will never out-gear them.

Here's an sample of challenge mode... I went in with a few guildies last week thinking it was just a speed run heroic and was gonna fly through the place. The first pull in Stormstout Brewery the mobs were hitting my Guardian Druid for 170k damage non-crit melee each. I got hit for 340k immediately and the healer and myself were 100% caught off guard and I died in about 5 seconds. We came back in, CC'ed and got to the first boss room. The dps started hopping on barrels and one of them got hit by one and instantly got 1-shot. Looking back at the logs, the barrel hit him for 680k non-crit. The first boss wasn't that bad, but trust me, I was definitely making sure to use Savage Defense every time I hit 60 rage. After that, we tried running the gauntlet and wiped on the first attempt and called it there since a couple of the players were fresh 90's running around in ilvl 435-450 gear since a couple of us had to use alts to make up a Tank/3DPS/Healer team. My tank was actually ilvl 467 (which gets nerfed down to 463), so those incoming damage numbers probably wont change much.
Edited by Roenick on 11/6/2012 12:08 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9040
11/06/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Snowfox
Well, spin it how you like - I'm simply pointing out that a lot of the people in /LFD now generally out-gear the instance.


This is kinda laughable that in fact this outgearing you speak of happens as soon as you meet the ilv requirement. To be honest all those players you see not pulling anywhere near acceptable dps is what they are learning from not having to play their class while leveling which makes the fact that these faceroll max lv dungeons are making some of those players far worse than if they actually well you know hit more than one button to win.

These dungeons are becoming a breeding ground of how 4 players can effectively do everything wrong and still complete a dungeon try raiding and having 8/10 players with absolutely no clue what they are doing and see how that goes.

Now I am not for the dungeons making average players struggle to a point of fustration but they should not be able to be 2 manned either. (which in all honesty many of the dungeons/bosses can be 2 manned without a healer) These heroics should be the last in a long line of learning curves for players but since leveling takes no skill or thought beyond close my eyes mash my face into the keyboard open eyes hey look loot. These heroics need to be what they really are meant for learning the last of the things about the class you play and some mechanics an move onto raiding.(if raiding is your thing) They are not even close to that.
To me this is the greatest tragedy to ever hit WoW. Of course this is only my opinion, but in days past, I took a lot of pride in leading a group through the (non-linear) dungeons, and explaining what was up, what to CC, what mob to interrupt/kill first, etc. It was challenging, fun, and honestly I met WAY more people this way as well. Forming a group was also a good way to meet people, you had to actually talk to one another... dear lord not TYPING!!

...............

TL;DR - the easy state of the current heroics is tragic, and here are some ideas I'm throwing about as ways to get around that, and to get around dailies/get people out in the world.

You obviously haven't tried challenge modes. You'll be in here whining about that probably. Trust me, it's everything you wanted and more. The only problem now is that you're too lazy to form the group because you've been spoiled by LFG.

If heroics are so boring and easy, why have you been too afraid or lazy to even attempt challenge mode?

There's no way in hell Challenge Mode would work in LFG because they require way too much communication. Communication across servers with strangers in the middle of a battle is nearly impossible since everything has to be typed (what percentage of people actually use blizzards in-game voice option? Heck, does it even still exist?). The amount of rage-quitting in LFG Challenge modes would be unprecedented and it would crumble. Blizzard knows this because it is common sense. Hence, you must get off your lazy azz and form the group yourself.

TL;DR - Quit whining and try challenge mode. It's the toughest heroic ever released by far and can't be beat by out-gearing it. What you're whining for has actually been implemented and you've been too afraid/lazy to form a group to even attempt it.

And once you beat it, there's still the time (gold/silver/bronze) aspect of the runs to shoot for so there will still be a challenge. In the past (BC heroics), once you were able to complete a heroic with your group, the challenge was over and you farmed it for the rest of the expansion and they were boring again. The only change was that you had to use less CC each time you entered (ie - more facerolling).

Take a look on your server at the best times run. Check out how close the "Realm Best" time is to the Gold requirement.
Edited by Roenick on 11/6/2012 12:24 PM PST
100 Orc Warrior
16065
The first pull in Stormstout Brewery the mobs were hitting my Guardian Druid for 170k damage non-crit melee each. I got hit for 340k immediately and the healer and myself were 100% caught off guard and I died in about 5 seconds.


Just as a note tanks NEVER get critted. But yeah I did scarlet halls and those dogs were vicious.
90 Human Mage
8270
The casuals out number the hardcores by a lot, both in game and on the forums. So they're the voice Blizz hears, which is constantly screaming "I'm too terribad to get any loots, pwease nerf the content into the gwound so I can has loots too." And Blizz listens, up to the point where they currently put, up to, a 40% nerf on mob/boss health and damage, and a 40% buff to player health and damage. Content is a joke currently, I'd like to tell you Heroic raiding or Challenge modes were better, but they're essentially just gear checks, yay you have the gear to do enough damage, or wah my gear still isn't high enough to do enough damage.
11/06/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Imadkchikguy
Well, spin it how you like - I'm simply pointing out that a lot of the people in /LFD now generally out-gear the instance.


This is kinda laughable that in fact this outgearing you speak of happens as soon as you meet the ilv requirement.

..............

These heroics need to be what they really are meant for learning the last of the things about the class you play and some mechanics an move onto raiding.(if raiding is your thing) They are not even close to that.

Quit being bad or lazy and try Challenge Mode.
MVP
100 Night Elf Priest
11745
11/06/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Imadkchikguy
These heroics need to be what they really are meant for learning the last of the things about the class you play and some mechanics an move onto raiding.(if raiding is your thing) They are not even close to that.


I remember when heroics first came out - and even then, they weren't that.

Heroics have never really been hard except for the very very brief moment of time when people step into them without the gear from them. Once people start getting the gear from them, it's just chain-pull aoe-farm them all the way. How it is. How it has been.
11/06/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Magedaw
I'd like to tell you Heroic raiding or Challenge modes were better, but they're essentially just gear checks, yay you have the gear to do enough damage, or wah my gear still isn't high enough to do enough damage.

LOL... have you even tried Challenge Mode? It doesn't sound like it because you don't realize that Challenge Mode isn't a gear check, they're a skill check.

IF YOU HAVE GEAR ABOVE ILVL 463 AVERAGE, IT IS NERFED DOWN TO ILVL 463.

How the hell is that a gear check? If anything it's the opposite. It's a GEAR CAP and a SKILL CHECK.

It's funny how many people are whining about the dungeons being too easy and yet they're too afraid to even try Challenge Mode.

How the hell can you comment on Challenge Mode when you didn't even know there was a gear cap. So far you haven't even cleared a single Challenge Mode dungeon. My guess is that you never even stepped into one or you'd be more educated about them.

Quit whining about something you know nothing about.
Edited by Roenick on 11/6/2012 12:35 PM PST
100 Gnome Monk
12390
11/06/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Noctemtenchi
Good for you. You should try challenge modes.

Oh right, let me line up my schedule with my friends. Yeah not going to happen, along with still using the time I have in heroics to fill out my gear on this toon and another.


I don't understand. It sounded like you were commenting in a negative way how easy the dungeons are and how fast you can clear them. I offer you a solution to your problem and you brush it aside citing time constraints? You, sir, are quite the enigma.
100 Gnome Monk
12390
11/06/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Magedaw
Content is a joke currently, I'd like to tell you Heroic raiding or Challenge modes were better, but they're essentially just gear checks, yay you have the gear to do enough damage, or wah my gear still isn't high enough to do enough damage.


In challenge modes, most gear is normalized to 463. There is no real gear check for challenge modes and it can be quite interesting for people looking for a challenge. Don't take my word on it though, try them and see for yourself.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9040
May I ask do challenge modes offer gear upgrades? Outside of the points and gold they award is there a reason beyond Xmog gear to do them?

Telling me to go do Challenge mode because I am lazy because I am bad? Please stop right there challenge modes are meant for those that want something more than just running herois all day they offer points gold and VANITY items for you nothing more telling someone to go try it or you are a bad player get real.

I was not disputing Challenge mode in any way did my post even mention them nah didn't think so.

As far as dungeons never being "hard" Snow I agree for the most part however saying that they were always just some faceroll stepping stone is false to point while the fact they may not have been hard per say there was a degreee of learning involved when you reached them a hey if I do this at this point it works better or I do more dps or take less damage.

That aspect of heroics are all but gone from these MoP incarnations of heroics.

And ya artificial limitations and difficulty barriers are not why I play this game when I get raid gear and move onto the nest tier of raids is my gear scaled down is it nerfed to be in line with the next teir? NAH DIDN'T THINK SO.
Edited by Imadkchikguy on 11/6/2012 12:53 PM PST
90 Troll Druid
4855
To me this is the greatest tragedy to ever hit WoW. Of course this is only my opinion, but in days past, I took a lot of pride in leading a group through the (non-linear) dungeons, and explaining what was up, what to CC, what mob to interrupt/kill first, etc. It was challenging, fun, and honestly I met WAY more people this way as well. Forming a group was also a good way to meet people, you had to actually talk to one another... dear lord not TYPING!!

...............

TL;DR - the easy state of the current heroics is tragic, and here are some ideas I'm throwing about as ways to get around that, and to get around dailies/get people out in the world.

You obviously haven't tried challenge modes. You'll be in here whining about that probably. Trust me, it's everything you wanted and more. The only problem now is that you're too lazy to form the group because you've been spoiled by LFG.

If heroics are so boring and easy, why have you been too afraid or lazy to even attempt challenge mode?

There's no way in hell Challenge Mode would work in LFG because they require way too much communication. Communication across servers with strangers in the middle of a battle is nearly impossible since everything has to be typed (what percentage of people actually use blizzards in-game voice option? Heck, does it even still exist?). The amount of rage-quitting in LFG Challenge modes would be unprecedented and it would crumble. Blizzard knows this because it is common sense. Hence, you must get off your lazy azz and form the group yourself.

TL;DR - Quit whining and try challenge mode. It's the toughest heroic ever released by far and can't be beat by out-gearing it. What you're whining for has actually been implemented and you've been too afraid/lazy to form a group to even attempt it.

And once you beat it, there's still the time (gold/silver/bronze) aspect of the runs to shoot for so there will still be a challenge. In the past (BC heroics), once you were able to complete a heroic with your group, the challenge was over and you farmed it for the rest of the expansion and they were boring again. The only change was that you had to use less CC each time you entered (ie - more facerolling).

Take a look on your server at the best times run. Check out how close the "Realm Best" time is to the Gold requirement.


Wow. Time to be a jackass because I can hide behind my avatar!!! Is there a reason you decided to be an absolute jerk, or is that just normal for you? Whining? That's not whining. I was suggesting things that I genuinely feel would be improvements to a game I love. Did I demand these things or throw a tantrum and threaten to quit? Did I cry and say something was too hard for me to finish? Oh I didn't? Oh right I forgot, you're just an internet troll for some reason.

Regardless, there are many reasons why I haven't attempted challenge modes yet, but the main one is that my guild is tiny, with a few friends who still play, we have lives outside of WoW, and some of them aren't even 90 yet, and it's those people that I WILL attempt and complete challenge modes with. They're not bad players, in fact they're some of the best I've ever come across, but we long ago gave up being cutting edge, in favour of balance in our lives. Sue me. There's a lot of other stuff to keep me occupied while I wait.

Also, when the hell did I say Challenge Modes should be LFR? I think LFR should be gone from the game. I've played since before release, and I never EVER had a problem forming my groups by spamming trade chat. I was the guy who hearthed from Scholo and ran back when I replaced the player who left. I'm the furthest thing from lazy when it comes to WoW.

That aside, Challenge Modes are not what I was suggesting, and of course you cut out everything else in my post in favour of attacking me on the one thing you perceive you can. Wow way to go, you're a champ!

What I WAS suggesting was that they put some fun, clever things into the game that were tied to actual rewards, not just vanity items, and see who can get the best time evar! This isn't a racing game, I'm not playing Mario Kart competing against a developers ghost. Although I will do the challenge modes, and I love the idea of them, that's not what I was talking about.

But thanks for trolling.
Edited by Primington on 11/6/2012 12:54 PM PST
MVP
100 Night Elf Priest
11745

If you remember when heroics came out you'll remember they were harder than Karazhan.

If you remember heroics from 2.0 you'll remember that Old Hillsbrad (Durnholde) was impossible without a rogue to set off the bombs because whenever you aggroed a patrol it would spawn more patrols and when they got low on health they would "should" and aggro other patrols that would also spawn more patrols.

So no, heroics used to be as hard or harder than some raid content. A lot of instances used to require 3 CCs. AOE tanking used to be one of the most difficult things in the game, trash mobs used to one shot anyone who wasnt a tank.


I think we may just have to agree to disagree. My memories of those times were very different. However I also remember when 5p scholo (wasn't called a heroic) was harder than any 5p since then.
90 Tauren Druid
6525
they're almost wrath-mode dungeons already. they'll be even easier than wrath eventually. i thought the devs agreed that stuff puts people to sleep. im not saying they have to be challenging, just not total ZZZzzZZZzzZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz
90 Tauren Warrior
0
Says dungeons are easy.

Hasn't stepped foot in a challenge dungeon.
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