Why are dungeons so easy now?

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90 Human Paladin
10795
there so simple I pop between facebook and fighting mobs
90 Worgen Priest
6590
It's just I see this commenting about some cata heroics too hard...but some wotlk heroics too easy...and then in other forums i see people complaining that they can't get gear and they think they shouldn't have to do dailies. I would love watch 95% of all servers populations CRY at an attempt at a BC dungeon ROFLMAO!
90 Human Warrior
13945
11/06/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Bomdanil
I don't get this. Jin'do, Jan'alai, and maybe Venoxis were really the only things remotely difficult about them.


Que?

Any tank worth their armour could solo Venoxis, and most of us wound up needing to because "Don't stand in green" is, as stated above, very difficult for people.

Edit: Not disagreeing with the point of your post, just saying I found it odd to see Venoxis on your "This guy sucks" list.

Admittedly a big maybe. He's somewhat complicated for the average pugger, at least in comparison to, say, Mandokir, Kilnara, and Zanzil. There's a little more to him than "don't stand in green," because, well, this green hunts you down.

Or it might be simply because he's got the best lines and voice, and so I want to remember him as being harder than he actually was.

One or the other.

11/06/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Baell
Cataclysm required people to move slightly to the left to avoid one shot mechanics. Please, lets just be truthful.

Name fights please?

Only thing I can think of is Dragha, and if you don't see that fire elemental from 800 miles away, I don't know what to tell you.

And one shot mechanics aren't always a bad thing..... If you stand in the painfully telegraphed earthquake, you probably should die.
Edited by Taelen on 11/6/2012 4:08 PM PST
55 Tauren Death Knight
90
Part of what makes these instances so easy is the nerfing of aggro mechanics.
11 Orc Hunter
12610
Cataclysm heroics were not fun. At all. If you had a dedicated and skilled heroic group, I can see why you enjoyed them...but they were utterly painful in LFD.

But don't just listen to my opinion. Remember that DPS queues were 45 minutes back in Cataclysm, which was completely intolerable. Now they rarely venture upwards of 10 minutes. That's hard evidence to refute.
90 Night Elf Warrior
11070
The ability to get in quickly and easily by being automatically matched with other players has a ton of great benefits, including just being able to get in and do dungeons without needing to spend time coordinating a group or spamming chat channels. Plus it has the whole Set It and Forget It benefit of being able to go do stuff while you're in queue. But the ease of entry has a downside in that tolerance goes down, and the fact of a random group is a lack of consistency from run to run. Random players being matched together injects a ton of inconsistency, but if it goes bad you can just jump back into queue and are probably not much worse for the wear.

Cataclysm dungeons tended to require things like CC, and in general a fairly in-sync and coordinated group to be consistently successful (at least until enough people outgeared them). The problem comes when matching random players together that there is no consistency. While you may go in with a group and all learn something, that a specific mob needs to be CC'd, or a certain boss behavior to avoid a wipe, those lessons are more than likely out the window with the next group you're matched with. While you may have some knowledge, maybe no one else does, and most people don't want to spend every run waiting for everyone else to learn all those same lessons. That can just be a frustrating experience. So instead of trying to force a group of strangers to be so heavily coordinated (maybe even having to jump into voice chat) just to complete the first steps of progression, we reduce the complexity to a point where the random groups that are being put together can most of the time be successful without needing to be hyper-organized or educated on each pull. Instead, that organization is far more important for the organized content where random people aren't matched together: normal and Heroic raids.

Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.


I don't disagree with a single word here, but I think the pendulum just swung a leeeelte too far.

I also want to pull out my own personal soapbox about how I think there should be tiers of difficulty even within the heroic dungeon set. I think 4.1 was a great patch because of this.
90 Night Elf Druid
8250
Cataclysm heroics were not fun. At all. If you had a dedicated and skilled heroic group, I can see why you enjoyed them...but they were utterly painful in LFD.

I solo queued as a healer and enjoyed them. Sure there was wipes from time to time, yet I wasnt going to let a failure in a video game get me down.

I am not asking for ICC difficulty heroics, I am just asking for WotLK difficulty heroics, right now they feel like WotLK normals in appropriate gear.
I also want to pull out my own personal soapbox about how I think there should be tiers of difficulty even within the heroic dungeon set. I think 4.1 was a great patch because of this.

Would be nice to have some sort of ramp up, WotLK did it as well.
But don't just listen to my opinion. Remember that DPS queues were 45 minutes back in Cataclysm, which was completely intolerable. Now they rarely venture upwards of 10 minutes. That's hard evidence to refute.

Surely has nothing to do with the majority of the fight mechanics was tank reliant and dang 45 minute queues as a DPS, your battle group sure got the short end, I had about 20-30min queues. Than again I had around 15-25 minute queues in WotLK as a dps. So obviously there are more factors involved.

You also need to take in effect that ping plays a huge part as well and the pc they are running.

a 50 ms ping will make a major differance to a 250+ ping.

I had +200ms ping and did fine. I have nothing against adding a second to some of those mechanics, instead of doing such the developers just made them ignorable and placed extra stress on healers instead which is poor game play design IMO.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 11/6/2012 4:27 PM PST
90 Worgen Priest
6590
Seriously? These heroics are not hard. Cata heroics were not hard either. I only play my priest healer and play it as holy. Half the time in cata I went to a heroic I told my tank to go DPS just so we could clear the things faster....they were easy as heck....And i didn't have anything better than regular / heroic dungeon gear when I was doing it...neither did the tank.... people need to start looking at their healers failures more or something rofl.
90 Worgen Priest
6590
Erras...it was the whole LFG concept that killed difficulty and tolerance. Add me. I'll run challenge modes with you any time if you actually enjoy a difficult encounter. (atleast from what I've heard).
85 Gnome Priest
6840
11/06/2012 03:47 PMPosted by Kaddie
Even NON-LFR raiding mechanics these days are not as hard as BC heroics were...been longing for an actual challenge.


Says the guy with one normal mode kill in MV.
90 Worgen Priest
6590
because our raid groups tanks took 3 weeks to figure out you cant let them overload twice....so we replaced em.
90 Worgen Priest
6590
and last week our group didn't show up. lol. can't do much about that. we raid 2 hours a week sir.
90 Human Monk
5595
They might be easy for some.

But not for me who is a solo player and can struggle in some dungeons I do.

If you dungeon in a group,sure everything is too easy for you lot.
Leave the dungeons alone as I do not want them any harder.

If you want a challenge take all that gear away and then do the dungeon run. lolz SOLO it!!!!
90 Blood Elf Warlock
4400
Quite frankly maybe people don't want to spend 3.5 seconds to mark a mob with the hex or poly symbol before a pull or maybe even type "poly the x" but maybe too bad? Maybe groups don't want to have to learn their class to faceroll their way past DS with a 30% buff but maybe too bad.

There was a blue post by Draztal referencing how players can get more boss-killing-power from learning their class and attaining skill than sheer number power via gear (or by extension, nerfing content to the point of boring).

This seems to me to be in contrast to other posts made defending nerfs or generally defending easier content. In my opinion normal dungeons should be about as hard as heroics are now (you may not be able to afk through the *whole* fight) and heroics should be about where heroics were in early cata (I know not everybody enjoyed healing those hyper-punishing heroics while everybody was undergeared but it was challenging and took the group actually following simple orders such as "cc x" or "don't stand in y". But they should actually reward you with decent gear. You can do heroics but if they are "too hard" to press your simple rotations and not stand in obvious boss aoes and press your 1-minute-cc buttons then you can do dailies or scenarios for valor.

I'm not sure that it is too much to ask, a random group of 5 people can get together, do their jobs individually and get through the dungeon with no communication if they all know what to do and if they don't it is also easy to simply take a few seconds to explain things. Does blizzard feel like the playerbase isn't capable of that outside a formal raiding guild environment?
88 Gnome Warlock
1325
11/06/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Kteist
Cataclysm heroics were not fun. At all. If you had a dedicated and skilled heroic group, I can see why you enjoyed them...but they were utterly painful in LFD.


I ran heroics strictly through LFD and I had a blast in them. They may not have been fun for everyone, but to say they weren't fun at all isn't a fair assessment.
90 Human Paladin
9740
The ability to get in quickly and easily by being automatically matched with other players has a ton of great benefits, including just being able to get in and do dungeons without needing to spend time coordinating a group or spamming chat channels. Plus it has the whole Set It and Forget It benefit of being able to go do stuff while you're in queue. But the ease of entry has a downside in that tolerance goes down, and the fact of a random group is a lack of consistency from run to run. Random players being matched together injects a ton of inconsistency, but if it goes bad you can just jump back into queue and are probably not much worse for the wear.

Cataclysm dungeons tended to require things like CC, and in general a fairly in-sync and coordinated group to be consistently successful (at least until enough people outgeared them). The problem comes when matching random players together that there is no consistency. While you may go in with a group and all learn something, that a specific mob needs to be CC'd, or a certain boss behavior to avoid a wipe, those lessons are more than likely out the window with the next group you're matched with. While you may have some knowledge, maybe no one else does, and most people don't want to spend every run waiting for everyone else to learn all those same lessons. That can just be a frustrating experience. So instead of trying to force a group of strangers to be so heavily coordinated (maybe even having to jump into voice chat) just to complete the first steps of progression, we reduce the complexity to a point where the random groups that are being put together can most of the time be successful without needing to be hyper-organized or educated on each pull. Instead, that organization is far more important for the organized content where random people aren't matched together: normal and Heroic raids.

Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.


Ok Bashiok, so WHY don't MMOs have a difficulty setting at character creation? ie Hardcore realm (challenging difficult encounters, quests, death penalty, etc) and a Normal realm (pretty much WoW as it is). I realise it is balancing two different 'settings' but at least you are going to keep everybody happy rather than the constant dumbing down we see in MMOs these days. Every game you play with the exception of MMOs generally has a difficulty setting the player chooses, MMOs should have also.
90 Gnome Mage
9310
It would be pretty awesome if we at least had challenging options that reward the same stuff as easy content. Obviously, it would be a mistake for you guys to remove the easy stuff. But it would be pretty darn awesome if I could choose a rep, charm, or dungeon gear grind that is a little less "show up and wait in line for free rewards" and a little more "prove you have at least some ability to avoid death to earn your rewards." I know a lot of players get satisfaction from repetitious and easy tasks, but my mindset just says this is the type of thing I'd delegate to some minimum wage employee instead of wasting my own time.
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