Why are dungeons so easy now?

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I like how some are complainging things are too easy, while some are complaining how bad other players are thus things are too hard. Sounds like things are about right then.
90 Gnome Mage
9310
11/06/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Tyburn
I like how some are complainging things are too easy, while some are complaining how bad other players are thus things are too hard.


If only there were some way a game could have two different difficulties in the same game, then both sides could be happy.
79 Blood Elf Warlock
6200
Really felt the need to put in my 2c here.

Blues, randoms, all of you, how many of you actually solely focus on the dungeon at hand? Or, like me, do you often watch a movie on your other screen while you level/dungeon? Do you find dungeons boring? Do you minimize and downplay the issue by convincing yourself it's because you've seen it time and time again? I absolutely do not think that is the case.

I would rather be challenged on a daily basis and do dungeons that encourage teamwork than pull up Netflix on my laptop and spam a memorized rotation. When I end up preferring an episode of random show to what's going on the screen that's when you know something needs to change.

Dungeons should be challenging. They should teach players, much like LFR, important mechanics. That's why there's a Party Leader system- that person should be willing to teach other players how to complete the dungeon.

Easy mode dungeons become more routine and less of a challenge. You do them not because they are fun and exciting, but because you feel obligated. Perhaps, much like raids, there should be a third/lower tier of dungeons for those that prefer this lazy play style. I for one play games to earn my boss kills and I haven't felt like I have in 5-mans for a very, very long time.

Blues, this is perhaps one of the many instances where you should not cave into demand. Not all of us have time to raid regularly but still want to face challenging content. Even the new Heroics are laughably easy.

Leveling in dungeons and questing is far too easy, but I'm glad I can get caught up on The Walking Dead while I gain a few levels without paying attention, I guess.

I implore you to captivate me with your game Blizzard. Trial and error is part of MMO's and they should make players want to beat the content even more. This group of players, whom many generalize as "casual", is not completely made up of instant gratification needy vegetables. I'm a full time hard working college student and I usually do a few dungeons a day. For once in a long time, I want to feel like I earned my loot in a 5-man setting.

You may say I need to take off my rose colored glasses, but vanilla dungeons were difficult and rewarding. Difficulty doesn't mean sitting around spamming trade for groups- it means understanding mechanics, cooperation, and execution. No, it doesn't have to be raid level, but something as simple as CC and interrupts would be sufficient.

Blizzard has been slowly moving WoW down this path for awhile. I stopped playing in Firelands as I began to notice the trend, but I picked up MOP to see what's up. I just keep hoping they realize how important a good challenge is- even with the smallest of groups. I'd go so far as to say endgame should be primarily 5-mans instead of 10 and 25's, but that's a stretch for this discussion.
90 Draenei Priest
14325
One of my favourite things to do in SWTOR was running heroic flash points without a tank, we did a few without healers too. Got pretty crazy in some of them.

Wish there were challenge modes to try doing instances without a core role. Could be fun.
97 Gnome Mage
14480
11/06/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Tyburn
I like how some are complainging things are too easy, while some are complaining how bad other players are thus things are too hard. Sounds like things are about right then.


This!
87 Pandaren Monk
10535
I love the mop zones as they are!
Cata was trash and made me and my family leave.
Mop brought us back because we read that it was going back to a more wotlk style.
100 Orc Shaman
10600
The regulars are supposed to be easy.

The heroics had a brief "somewhat hard" moment, but that went away weeks ago as everyone outgeared them. Now you've got people in half lfr/rep epics just there for VP.


This. You get ppl mostly in 460+ ilvl gear with a good mix of epics tossed in and now you have a good chunk of ppl whining about how too easy the heroics are. Uh duh?, of course theyre easy to you. You ran them so much that you know the mechanics. If you want hard solo them yourselves. :)
Edited by Fatalframe on 11/7/2012 12:49 AM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
17255
Cataclysm dungeons tended to require things like CC, and in general a fairly in-sync and coordinated group to be consistently successful (at least until enough people outgeared them). The problem comes when matching random players together that there is no consistency. While you may go in with a group and all learn something, that a specific mob needs to be CC'd, or a certain boss behavior to avoid a wipe, those lessons are more than likely out the window with the next group you're matched with. While you may have some knowledge, maybe no one else does, and most people don't want to spend every run waiting for everyone else to learn all those same lessons. That can just be a frustrating experience. So instead of trying to force a group of strangers to be so heavily coordinated (maybe even having to jump into voice chat) just to complete the first steps of progression, we reduce the complexity to a point where the random groups that are being put together can most of the time be successful without needing to be hyper-organized or educated on each pull. Instead, that organization is far more important for the organized content where random people aren't matched together: normal and Heroic raids.

Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.


You know why your theory is incorrect?

The first day of Cata's release I hit 85 on my Rogue and was using a 277 Dagger (Lungbreaker) from ICC. I was in mostly greens. I queued for a random LFD.

This was a completely random group of people who had just hit 85 and were as equally ungeared as I was. We had never met, nor played together.

The very first pull of the first boss in BRC we not only downed it, but we got the achievement.

We one-shot the next boss with the beams. And took 2 pulls on the Fire Boss and Beauty. And 1 shot the last boss.

It was my one and only incredible experience with LFD. I've been looking for that ever since.

You know what's really sad? Two years later, people in gear with 100+ ilvls, and in incredibly nerfed versions of what we did that first day, can't even begin to figure out the mechanics. They just sit there and wipe.

You're going the wrong way with the game. Cata was a step in the right direction. You just didn't own it. You wimped out when people cried it was too hard. It was only too hard, if you completely ignored mechanics.

Stop misnaming things too.

The "Heroics" aren't Heroic. They are simply level 90 dungeons.

(And I don't even mean this on the basis of how easy they are. I mean, there literally are no level 90 dungeons. The "Heroics" ARE it).
81 Pandaren Monk
15750
You know why your theory is incorrect?

The first day of Cata's release I hit 85 on my Rogue and was using a 277 Dagger (Lungbreaker) from ICC. I was in mostly greens. I queued for a random LFD.

This was a completely random group of people who had just hit 85 and were as equally ungeared as I was. We had never met, nor played together.

The very first pull of the first boss in BRC we not only downed it, but we got the achievement.


So you're saying that you're not the exception, that you're the rule.

Delusional.
100 Tauren Druid
11830
11/06/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Bashiok
Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.

Why can't we have a happy medium? Something between a faceroll snooze and a wipefest? I think you give PUGs too little credit. Make people have to pay attention and we will. Make it so that they can basically complete a dungeon without really mattering which dungeon it is and they start to use less skill, because the dungeon simply doesn't require it.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12515
11/06/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Bashiok
Of course there are players that want every piece of content to be very challenging, even going so far as wanting hard questing and daily quests, but the breadth of types of people playing World of Warcraft mean that we need to have a wide variety of content, and a wide variety of difficulty, to try to appeal to a variety of tastes. Obviously it's not an exact science, as you'll see from expansion to expansion, or even patch to patch, we may change difficulty to suit what we believe will achieve the best results for the people attempting that content.

It's not so much that we want it all to be very challenging but...

For me, in order for a game to be fun, it needs to be realistically possible for me to lose. It doesn't have to be a big loss - death in WoW is just a temporary setback - but I need to feel like there's a realistic chance that, on this attempt, I might not accomplish my goal.

Without that, the 'wins' stop feeling like 'wins' to me. And when there aren't any wins or any losses, it stops feeling like a game and starts feeling like...not even a job. I could suck at a job. It feels like a menial chore. Like cleaning my bathroom. The only way to fail at cleaning the bathroom is not to do it. Dailies and MoP dungeons are like that.

(I suppose there's a small game of chance embedded within dailies. I could 'win' a Skyshard or a world drop BoE epic. That works as a draw for some people. It doesn't work for me - I don't like very-low-odds games or games of pure chance. My gambling is limited to blackjack and poker, not slots or the lottery.)
90 Night Elf Monk
5230
OP you're not alone. I feel the same way too.

Last time I posted on my main I got responses like:

WoW isn't hard in the first place

Deal with MMO's being easy, they're supposed to be that way to attract money

Vanilla and BC dungeons weren't hard, they were just tedious

Nothing in WoW is hard, deal with it

The person is what makes things hard

And so on... Glad to see I'm not alone.
90 Night Elf Monk
5230
Comments from a video in youtube, while I was watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa6RhGCKPGY

posted by pedro13a 1 month ago:

such a shame that wow its so easy these days ..
I quited the game months ago but i do enjoy the previews that you do in your videos about almost every class. Keep it up !

posted by GhsCrysis in reply to pedro13a 1 month ago:

Yeah it is really sad how easy things all are. Back at 60 in vanilla the 5 mans were actually challenging. Now everything is incredibly easy, even the heroic raids for the most part. Makes the game way less fun. =\



========================================================

--> I agree with the comments above. We could do away with the grind and farming and dailies, because they're boring and they don't make the game challenging - they make the game more tedious.

But what we should not do away in the game is challenging 5 mans, like what the comments said above.

With the CURRENT state of 5 mans, every time i queue as a tank, it just becomes so tedious, i spam t-clap and snore. Go pull the next mob, aoe fest, sleep. Wait for gear, get out, then dungeon queue again. With raids, I only have to tank and spank, and just worry about hitting buttons. Sure, there is some movement, but none of it compares to the kind of strategizing that I did before.

I no longer have to issue kill orders, cc, strategize, or do any of what I did back when I was a druid tank in burning crusade. I used to do those in Shattered halls that's why it was one of my favorite dungeons. I had to coordinate with my dps buddies, a hunter, a frost mage, and a balance druid to keep the very hard hitting mobs cc'ed. Even my priest healer used other skills rather than healing such as fearing mobs, shackling undead and so on. We always communicated and talked with each other.

Because of the difficulty of those dungeons, because of teamwork and communication, friends were made. The required teamwork made us WORK TOGETHER and achieve synergy, and soon, we found ourselves running dungeons over and over again and our bond with each other increased. SOme enemies are made too, but this doesn't even compare to the friendships I made running 5 mans in B.C. Dps were disciplined at the time, at least the ones i ran with, they were disciplined because if they got hit, it's usually 3 hits and they're dead.

The DPS i ran with followed my every order as a tank, sometimes they don't even need orders as they're smart enough to know what to do. Mostly, the dps i ran with I get to be my friends after each succesful dungeon, mostly because we achieved something worthwhile together and had a good experience with each other running a challenging 5 man.

With every 5 man dungeon completed, you and your team mates all felt a sense of accomplishment. The DPS felt very proud of themselves not only because of the damage that they do, but also because they had an ACTIVE ROLE in the group's SURVIVAL through wise use of cc and other skills.
The healers more so.

I have seen posts complaining about people queuing for dungeons and not saying a thing, acting like BOTS and NPCS. People not even saying hi or hello, not even talking to each other, COORDINATING WITH EACH OTHER like a TEAM...

I played this game MOSTLY for the challenging 5 mans it once has. Now that it's gone, I find it hard to continue playing anymore.

For those who haven't tried tanking in B.C. when it first came out, you wouldn't understand what I'm trying to say. For those people who did tank on burning crusade and complained it's tedious, hard or whatever, then you're entitled to your opinion.

I guess the only redeeming apsect of this game right now is challenge modes. BUt it still won't compare to the 5 mans of burning crusade. I don't know, I just can't describe it..

Sorry for the long post. I just had to let out these thoughts of mine.

TLDR: Bring back challenging 5 mans. The benefits of bringing them back far outweigh the negatives.


you guys are missing out by wanting dungeons to be faceroll. THat post above me was an old one.
Edited by Gennji on 11/7/2012 2:35 AM PST
90 Night Elf Monk
5230
^^

Make dungeons hard, give incentives for running dungeons by guild so that people will not go to LFD much? IDK. I GIVE UP.
90 Goblin Mage
6200
I'm convinced that anybody saying that cataclysm heroics were difficult did not play in burning crusade... LOL

Someone said here that challenges are harder than BC heroics. Now I am intrigued and HAVE to try one. Even cata heroics when you were undergeared to death for them were at hardest 30% of the amount of challenge of a BC heroic. I think a lot of that comes from less "oh crap" buttons and also the actual need to know how to use ALL your characters abilities including the cc's properly...not just the lol-face roll abilities in some fangled "rotation". Anybody that complains about cata being hard dare never have stepped in a REAL BC heroic during those times LMFAO!


I miss a lot about Burning Crusade.

  • Sitting and eating magefood after killing a few fel mobs in Hellfire Penninsula... only to have the Giant Fel Metal Fist of Jesus smite me.
  • Finally figuring out that mini-game in Ogri`la. Not Simon Says, the one where you turn into different demons.
  • Finally making it to 5,000g.. then blowing it all on epic flying.
  • Wasting, literally, dozens of hours in Kara.
  • Mag's Lair, Pre-Nerf.
  • Kazzak Bombing Stormwind and Ironforge... hard and often. Hilarity always ensued.
  • Running Heroic Slave Pens 63 times before Quamirron's Eye finally dropped. Yes, I kept count.
  • Heroics that were actually a challenge.
  • Heroic Magisters Terrace, and the birthplace of the Temporary Setback meme.
  • Beating my face into a wall when it came to getting people to understand Archimonde's Doomfire.
  • T5 Content. SSC and TK were still the best raids ever created. Nothing else has come close imo.
  • Hearing Ventrillo explode when Illidan finally dropped for the first time.
  • None of this is sarcastic. I absolutely loved TBC and WoW has never been the same since. I can't even come close matching that list with things I loved about the game in all other expansions combined.
    Edited by Bioflux on 11/7/2012 2:40 AM PST
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