Please make Challenge Modes harder

90 Pandaren Hunter
17665
Obviously it's too late for the current set, but if more are implemented in the future, I personally would appreciate a ramp up in difficulty.

I felt as though, besides the trash, there wasn't anything overly challenging about Challenge Modes as they are mostly about beating a timer. In most of the dungeons, there are several workarounds to improve your time drastically, trivializing the timer completely, making a run with good DPS and no wipes an automatic Gold.

Personally, I would like it if the dungeons themselves were harder, with less emphasis on beating a particular time. I understand that Blizzard wanted them to be clearable by the vast majority of players, thus the daily Challenge Mode quest, but if they want to make them truly challenging, then the difficulty should be increased.

All this being said, I still thoroughly enjoyed Challenge Modes and look forward to more in the future.
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90 Undead Death Knight
Eon
7570
Too much focus on speed, not enough focus on challenge.

Originally when they announced them, I thought it was going to be a call-back to the days of focused CC, interrupts, and proper management... but instead it's focus on invisibility potions and who can skip the most trash packs. For gold, anyway. I would actually prefer that all optional consumables -- potions, flasks, feasts -- were blocked from Challenge Mode and you had to truly rely on group skill/comp instead of 'artificial' boosters.

Very disappointed, I don't know how it ended up this way.
I don't have Gold Conqueror so maybe my perspective on gold runs is skewed... I hope...

Although if they had been called "Speed Mode" instead of "Challenge Mode" I think my complaints might be different. I just expected something else entirely.
Edited by Xionic on 11/6/2012 12:06 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
6420
I agree with all that has been said 100%
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90 Gnome Priest
18610
Ya CM's are meh. :(
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90 Human Monk
17840
11/06/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Xionic
I would actually prefer that all optional consumables -- potions, flasks, feasts -- were blocked from Challenge Mode and you had to truly rely on group skill/comp instead of 'artificial' boosters.

Disallowing all consumables and CDs longer than 5min would make it more interesting and (slightly) less about class stacking and invis potion burning for shorter times.

But it's too late for any kind of significant change like that, as it'd affect leaderboards too much.
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90 Draenei Priest
13660
11/06/2012 12:30 PMPosted by Litchi
I would actually prefer that all optional consumables -- potions, flasks, feasts -- were blocked from Challenge Mode and you had to truly rely on group skill/comp instead of 'artificial' boosters.

Disallowing all consumables and CDs longer than 5min would make it more interesting and (slightly) less about class stacking and invis potion burning for shorter times.

But it's too late for any kind of significant change like that, as it'd affect leaderboards too much.


Like the OP said, could be for the next round of CMs
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90 Pandaren Hunter
17665
If Invis pots were removed then every group would need a rogue to be competitive. What I'm saying is to just make them harder overall, so even with the gimmicks they'd still be extremely difficult.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
11/06/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Xionic
Too much focus on speed, not enough focus on challenge.


This is how I felt about challenge modes after trying a few. I never got a gold, but I felt like the dungeon was emphasized too hard on speed, and not actually "hard"

I see it as inferno mode in D3. It's not hard because it's hard, and challenges your skillset to the max. It's hard because you have to go as fast as possible, and to go as fast as possible you have to stack a certain party. Once you hit a certain skill point in the game (and it's really not that incredibly high for challenge modes) all it takes is some practice.

They should make it a point system of sorts that checks against certain things like time, number of deaths, actual wipes/resets of boss/trash, kill speed of bosses, and such. Assign a point value needed to achieve gold, silver, or bronze through those checks. You die? Lose a point. You kill a boss over a certain time threshold (relevant to each boss) lose a point each 30 seconds you go over. Dungeon should be doable in 15 minutes, and you take 16? Lose a point. Go much faster than the timer? Gain additional points. At the end of the day you can be carried (to a degree) on certain aspects. You can go for a hard and fast approach with possible deaths/wiping, but beat the timer so fast that you get gold anyways. You can go for a slow, and cautious approach that yields no deaths/wipes, and you get gold because of it.
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90 Troll Rogue
15495
Speed runs have been a part of gaming culture for a very long time, I'm not too sure how well it really fits with a hot key based mmo though.

I'd be all for a different kind of challenge mode though that doesn't involve speed, something that tests survivability against waves of mobs ("horde mode") or a boss that hits harder and harder until you die might be different and appeal to others who don't like the gimmick zergy feel of speed runs.
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90 Tauren Druid
12115
If time is taken into account, then it's still a speed run, people are going to rank themselves by comparing their time against other people.

Are you suggesting that time should not be a factor, i.e. you "win" if you kill the end boss and lose otherwise?

Or are you suggesting a longer speed run, say half an hour to complete for elite players like yourself? Is that really much different to how it is now?

Also, I agree with the idea to remove consumables. Invisibility-skipping a bunch of mobs isn't really a Challenge, it's just a gold sink. Skipping packs with stealth shouldn't be possible either, perhaps just disable stealth and timewarp to make it a more level playing field for different group compositions.
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90 Troll Rogue
15495
11/06/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Autumni
Are you suggesting that time should not be a factor, i.e. you "win" if you kill the end boss and lose otherwise?


Horde mode = you keep killing waves of stuff that get harder and harder until you all die rankings based on how long you live.

Stacking buff on a boss that hits harder and harder you also get ranked on how long you live.

Less of a mad zerg rush, more on controlling stuff doing a ton of dps/heals.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
Only wipe because we're rushing through, they all were pretty simple.

11/06/2012 04:51 PMPosted by Sabod
Stacking buff on a boss that hits harder and harder you also get ranked on how long you live.


2 tanks 3 heals, swapping with cooldowns?
Edited by Postonforums on 11/6/2012 5:12 PM PST
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90 Human Paladin
12590
11/06/2012 12:00 PMPosted by Karma
I understand that Blizzard wanted them to be clearable by the vast majority of players,


I don't have that understanding at all. I think Blizzard intended them for a minority of the players, even for bronze.
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90 Tauren Druid
12115
11/06/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Osmeric
I don't have that understanding at all. I think Blizzard intended them for a minority of the players, even for bronze.


I got that impression as well. On my server, my time of 1:46:46 for CM GSS is still the Horde record :)
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90 Worgen Warlock
11935
11/06/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Xionic
Too much focus on speed, not enough focus on challenge.

This. I was expecting to see gold being timed at like 1 hour thinking CMs would involve lots of CC and coordination similar to a 5 man raid of sorts. I'm not a fan of speed running things.
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90 Orc Death Knight
18345
Not sure how speed isn't part of the challenge.
That's like saying bosses shouldn't have berserk timers because killing them faster isn't part of the challenge.
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90 Human Paladin
10930
Is there any other way to measure how well a group does other than speed? It's always going to come down to speed because time is the easiest to measure.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
That's like saying bosses shouldn't have berserk timers because killing them faster isn't part of the challenge.


I guess, my main concern still lies in the amount of imbalance of effort in challenge modes from outside rather than inside, I would prefer dungeons made specifically for challenge modes, and things like invis pots being banned rather than the main priority of the entire clear.

11/06/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Sliphe
Is there any other way to measure how well a group does other than speed? It's always going to come down to speed because time is the easiest to measure.


There's the ability to make challenge modes difficult, the amount of hype put into how Brutal the difficult challenge modes would be, and then they end up being time attacks that aren't really hard, just rushed, really put me off, I want TBC release heroic dungeons, so there's something to do with a small group that feels like you're progressing, sitting around farming ghost mushrooms isn't exciting for me
Edited by Postonforums on 11/6/2012 10:32 PM PST
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90 Tauren Warrior
12040
I never was a fan of speedruns. I enjoyed the days of CC, focus-firing, and careful pulls. We did that on our first CM and it was fun. After that we started working on time and it struck me as an organized zergfest. That's just not my sort of thing.
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