Please make Challenge Modes harder

90 Dwarf Paladin
16310
The new abilitiy wise mari does only hits you if you stand too far away from him ;o


Like I said, found this out the hard way. I forget the name of this ability, but its not listed in the dungeon journal. You have to stand on the 1st or 2nd ring from the boss at all times. Probably the 1st to be safe, cause if you move even one foot off the 2nd ring you get zapped.
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90 Orc Death Knight
18345
The information is out there :) I won't claim my guides are perfect, but you can save time on stuff like that at least. Lots of potential wipes to slightly different abilities that eat attempts.

At the end of the day, small changes like that serve to make the boss more challenging but once you know how they work it's not that big of a deal. I mean, on Wise Mari for instance it really only adds any difficulty to the first phase in terms of how much room you have to work with.
Edited by Marza on 11/10/2012 9:23 PM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
12115
While on the topic of Wise Mari, is there a trick to avoiding water damage when you are on the inner rings? When I'm tanking (on heroic), if I face boss and jump-strafe over the gap in the ring I still get socked for water damage.
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90 Dwarf Death Knight
17665
11/11/2012 04:21 PMPosted by Autumni
While on the topic of Wise Mari, is there a trick to avoiding water damage when you are on the inner rings? When I'm tanking (on heroic), if I face boss and jump-strafe over the gap in the ring I still get socked for water damage.


If you jump over the gaps and keep landing on solid ground, you'll take 0 damage in phase 2
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90 Undead Death Knight
Eon
7570
If you're tanking Mari then you should spend most of your time standing in the water for vengeance.
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They were pretty damn easy, took 3 days for all 9 golds.
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90 Worgen Druid
17805
The challenge modes are too gimmicky for me to really care. Too much emphasis on speed, invis pots, aoe stuns, aoe dps, and overall chicanery. I was hoping they would need more CC/kiting, but none of that is really necessary.
Edited by Dysheki on 11/12/2012 4:46 AM PST
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90 Tauren Druid
12115
11/11/2012 05:54 PMPosted by Xionic
If you're tanking Mari then you should spend most of your time standing in the water for vengeance.


Even on challenge mode?
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90 Orc Death Knight
18345
CC is skill-less. Maybe I'm the only one that feels that way (I know I'm not but just saying), but any time someone says they wish the zones took more CC, I question whether they've ever played a CC class. Especially in this day and age.

1. slowly mark targets before pull
2. Pre-CC targets since it doesn't even aggro anymore. (and if it worked like it used to, do a countdown).
3. Have focus bars/aura/whatever for your CC targets so you can see when they are going to end
4. Reapply CC as necessary.

That's not challenging in the least. Basically, if your UI is set up correctly the 'challenge' of CC is 'hit your CC button once per minute'

I don't know about you, but it's a lot harder to pull 4 packs of deadly mobs at once and survive, than to nonchalantly pull a single mob out of a pack of 3 while the other two sit there in pig form or an ice block or whatever else.

Kiting is a very valuable skill the more mobs you pull, fwiw.
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90 Pandaren Monk
13475
I fully agree with Marza, I'm happy with the level of CC that is actually required in CM currently. And by that I mean chain your stuns on groups of adds. You guys want to talk about kiting? Wise Mari is a perfect boss for that, which btw you should also be chain stunning those adds.
Also, you give yourself too little credit Marza, your guides are great and they've definitely helped my group with plenty of the golds we've obtained. Sure we did a few things differently here and there, mostly to accommodate our group comp but it gives you an overall solid view for what to expect.
Also, just like plenty of others in here have said, if you don't have golds you shouldn't be complaining. It's like saying that raiding is too easy when you've cleared LFR once or twice, it just doesn't work that way. I will agree however that I would have liked to see a few more mechanics introduced on a few bosses, but overall I'm happy with the difficulty of them.
I read somewhere in this mess perhaps one of the most abysmal claims for CMs yet. The only difference between gold and silver is more dps. My guess is that you're trolling. Go ahead and do SM with your high dps, and Jade Serpent as well.
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MVP - Technical Support
90 Human Warrior
18600
I felt as though, besides the trash, there wasn't anything overly challenging about Challenge Modes as they are mostly about beating a timer. In most of the dungeons, there are several workarounds to improve your time drastically, trivializing the timer completely, making a run with good DPS and no wipes an automatic Gold.

my personal opinion (and take it for a grain of salt since i'm neither skilled enough nor have enough friends to pull off challenge mode gold), but i feel the work arounds were the issue. I don't think invis potions should be a requirement for challenge modes for example. The ways you cut time shouldn't be having a rogue shadowstep to x spot to start an event faster, or making sure you bring a shaman who's also an engineer to super jet pack something in spirit wolf form, etc. It should be about just conquering the dungeon. All mobs should see through stealth, rocket boots should be disabled (cause lets face it, profession advantages are cheezy). etc. Then the dungeons can be balanced around exactly what you say, the encounters, the difficulty of the trash. Not who has the best strategy for skipping stuff.
Edited by Omegal on 11/12/2012 10:16 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Monk
13475
11/12/2012 10:15 PMPosted by Omegal
I felt as though, besides the trash, there wasn't anything overly challenging about Challenge Modes as they are mostly about beating a timer. In most of the dungeons, there are several workarounds to improve your time drastically, trivializing the timer completely, making a run with good DPS and no wipes an automatic Gold.

my personal opinion (and take it for a grain of salt since i'm neither skilled enough nor have enough friends to pull off challenge mode gold), but i feel the work arounds were the issue. I don't think invis potions should be a requirement for challenge modes for example. The ways you cut time shouldn't be having a rogue shadowstep to x spot to start an event faster, or making sure you bring a shaman who's also an engineer to super jet pack something in spirit wolf form, etc. It should be about just conquering the dungeon. All mobs should see through stealth, rocket boots should be disabled (cause lets face it, profession advantages are cheezy). etc. Then the dungeons can be balanced around exactly what you say, the encounters, the difficulty of the trash. Not who has the best strategy for skipping stuff.


In my group we have two engineers, and I honestly can't tell you that they have given us an advantage at all. It gives them personal advantages when we're invis potting ensuring that they make it in time, but if any of the rest of us get caught because our invis pots expire and we're not at the proper location, then it's a wipe anyways. I think invis pots are fine, however I would definitely like to see the 5.1 changes implemented now so we don't have to wait 10 minutes after a wipe on pots, and I would also like to see a challenge mode only non consumable item that works like invis pots so we're not constantly draining our gold and time in farming the materials. As far as little gimmicks like having a rogue shadowstep, there are extraordinarily few that I can think of. The only one off the top of my head is to have a lock demon gate inside the room with the wise mari and have the other end outside, which shaves off about 15 seconds that you'd otherwise be standing there waiting for the RP to end and for the walls to drop.
As far as the best strat for skipping goes though, it's not really a big deal. There's still a kill count that needs to be met in EVERY dungeon. Without it, there's a few dungeons where you could literally skip all of the trash and get to the boss with a rogue in a group. And if you skip to much you're shooting yourself in the foot. My group missed a gold shadopan clear in an early run because we skipped too much on accident (didn't realize some of the adds towards the end weren't counting towards the kill count) and we had to go back to the second boss and kill a few adds there, which ended up adding like 6 minutes to our time.
I understand what people are saying, that they want to see more of an emphasis on the bosses being difficult and not the trash, and not invis potting, and this that and the other. But if that were the case, why not just raid? Why not do heroic dungeons? The bosses in both of those are far more difficult than the bosses in CM in comparison to the trash. You guys are really beating around the bush, but it seems as though most of you what class homogenization. Why do you bring a rogue to CM? Great cleave damage (if combat), personal stealth, sap, group stealth, plenty of cc. If you make all the trash see stealth, why then would you bring a rogue? Cleave damage (plenty other classes off this) CC (again, plenty of other classes offer the same thing). Rogues bring a unique advantage to the table if you have one in your group, though you might be losing out on other things, such as a shamans stormlash totem.
I like the way they're at now. You're really forced to think on your feet by making huge decisions at a split second and the amount of coordination that it takes to get through some of these with gold is incredible, that raids simply don't compare to. I know in my CM groups if the tank dies he is instantly Brezd, almost as if he was never dead, in our raids it takes a good 5-8 seconds before brez gets off. lol I only wish we could bring that same level of coordination to raids (the other raid members). A lot of people in this thread (and the countless other ones on the forums) are asking for a more "challenging" challenge mode. If you don't have gold, then stop whining, because you clearly don't understand how challenging they are.
On the note of "make the trash packs harder instead of putting a time limit to make the dungeon harder" a few others have already pointed out the flaw in that statement, but here's the other thing, how would we then have a leaderboard? What would make these competitive between the community? It would say that a group that cleared it in 2 hours is just as good as a group that cleared it in 13 minutes, which is clearly not the case.
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MVP - Technical Support
90 Human Warrior
18600
If you couldn't find a place to use rocket boots you just weren't being creative enough yet because i've heard some pretty strong tricks that shave a lot of time. It comes down to gimmiks. alos, if you think heroic sare hard you're mistaken. Certain classes are brought BECAUSE Of the gimmiks they provide you are precisely right. So your argument holds true in the reverse. Instead of why would you bring x, it should be why wouldn't you?

I NEVER said remove the timers and make it just hard bosses. I WANT the timers, i just want the timers to be beaten by killing the bosses or trash faster. Not gimmiking/skipping stuff. You clearly took what i said out of context if you thought i was looking for dungeons that are essencially progression raiding. I just prefer a speed run to be solely on skill and not rested on what gimmicks or shortcuts you bring to table (in additoin to skill). Beat it cause your dps was awesome, you interrputed those healers, your tank did a good job mitigating damage so your healer could throw some dps spells instead of heals, etc. Or your upped effectie damage by pulling more than 1 pack cause your healer was a real pro and said "keep it coming". That's what it's about. I utterly despise gimmiks.

In any case. Nothing is gonna change this expansion (and rightfully so, Blizz isn't going to change something that would clearly break leaderboards). But in any case, i'll go back to complaining in raid threads. Challenge modes are above my level.
Edited by Omegal on 11/13/2012 12:05 AM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
16325
You realize how many times we actually wiped because rocket boots malfunctioned at an awful point?

They are certainly good, but still unreliable. They also really aren't needed to achieve any of this.

Having mobs see through stealth is awful for any class that depends on it. Not that you use a lot of CC but it causes issue with a lot of classes who may depend on it, in the case of a Rogue possibly to CC (although CC isn't used a lot, if at all).

I can agree on a lot of compromises but streamlining everything would make them seem really boring. The gimmicks suck at times but they, like anything in the game are either done properly.. or well they aren't. When I am talking about instance gimmicks I more or less am talking about buckets of meat kind of thing, annoying yes, but it's still not all that bad.

As far as gimmicks brought by classes, almost everybody can bring something gimmicky to an instance. Stampeding roar for instance is REALLY powerful, probably more so than group stealth will ever be. Every class brings their own little thing, whether it be great stuns (allowing you to pull more), utility (in buffs, debuffs or hybridized healing) or just strong AoE or burst damage.

The thing about them is that every composition (that is actually functional) can complete golds. They might not be capable of having THE BEST times in the world but they will be able to complete them all. On the flip side of things I don't think there is a universal master composition that is unrivaled at getting THE BEST times in every single instance. There probably is a composition that is sought after and the easiest to work with, but an instance by instance basis is always going to shuffle around the class balanced based on what the instance requires.
Edited by Gròmmash on 11/13/2012 1:47 AM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
20360
I posed this query earlier in the thread, but it does seem that most Gold-attained players aren't into the leaderboard aspect. That's supposed to be the additional difficulty beyond Gold. I think Blizzard knows that a very, very small percentage will care about leaderboard, and they're okay with this. I've read a couple blues saying its fine if they create a particular piece of content that only few will get into. I still think a dedicated Challenge Mode board here will foster some level of community and competition.

Perhaps the part that isn't working out is the daily quest or casual pug aspect. Even on my high pop server Sargeras they don't seem to be going down. They're supposed to be a great source of Valor, but I think players just don't want to go thru the hassle of spamming for awhile and needing Vent and traveling out there and all that when they can just Q into LFD or do their dailies. Blizzard might be worried about inflation, but perhaps the daily Challenge Mode quest can also reward a bag, like they're planning with the new LFR/coin roll satchels. Maybe make it reward 200g or so too to account for consumables and potential wipes.
Edited by Digerati on 11/13/2012 2:12 AM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
21745
2 changes I want to make.

-no more invis potions, take a look at what people are skipping with these and either just delete the packs or adjust the timers

-clear the leaderboard at the same time you reset pvp ladders.
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90 Orc Death Knight
18345
I don't think invis pots are gimmicky at all. Everyone has access, and they come at a high price (no potions for the rest of the instance basically).

Engineering isn't broken on its own, it's only broken when your entire group has it (or similar effects). If I'm the only engy, stealthing or rocketting past a group doesn't really do alot for you, and yeah a failure is BAD if it's a relied upon aspect of your strat.

Basically, taking out the creative aspects of shaving seconds off will diminish a lot of the fun, if you literally have to pu ll every mob in the zone, that's very boring to me.
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11/06/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Osmeric
I understand that Blizzard wanted them to be clearable by the vast majority of players,


Well, yeah.

Why would they not want them to be?
Edited by Gillyy on 11/13/2012 10:59 AM PST
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