11/12/2012 10:15 PM
Posted by Omegal
I felt as though, besides the trash, there wasn't anything overly challenging about Challenge Modes as they are mostly about beating a timer. In most of the dungeons, there are several workarounds to improve your time drastically, trivializing the timer completely, making a run with good DPS and no wipes an automatic Gold.
my personal opinion (and take it for a grain of salt since i'm neither skilled enough nor have enough friends to pull off challenge mode gold), but i feel the work arounds were the issue. I don't think invis potions should be a requirement for challenge modes for example. The ways you cut time shouldn't be having a rogue shadowstep to x spot to start an event faster, or making sure you bring a shaman who's also an engineer to super jet pack something in spirit wolf form, etc. It should be about just conquering the dungeon. All mobs should see through stealth, rocket boots should be disabled (cause lets face it, profession advantages are cheezy). etc. Then the dungeons can be balanced around exactly what you say, the encounters, the difficulty of the trash. Not who has the best strategy for skipping stuff.
In my group we have two engineers, and I honestly can't tell you that they have given us an advantage at all. It gives them personal advantages when we're invis potting ensuring that they make it in time, but if any of the rest of us get caught because our invis pots expire and we're not at the proper location, then it's a wipe anyways. I think invis pots are fine, however I would definitely like to see the 5.1 changes implemented now so we don't have to wait 10 minutes after a wipe on pots, and I would also like to see a challenge mode only non consumable item that works like invis pots so we're not constantly draining our gold and time in farming the materials. As far as little gimmicks like having a rogue shadowstep, there are extraordinarily few that I can think of. The only one off the top of my head is to have a lock demon gate inside the room with the wise mari and have the other end outside, which shaves off about 15 seconds that you'd otherwise be standing there waiting for the RP to end and for the walls to drop.
As far as the best strat for skipping goes though, it's not really a big deal. There's still a kill count that needs to be met in EVERY dungeon. Without it, there's a few dungeons where you could literally skip all of the trash and get to the boss with a rogue in a group. And if you skip to much you're shooting yourself in the foot. My group missed a gold shadopan clear in an early run because we skipped too much on accident (didn't realize some of the adds towards the end weren't counting towards the kill count) and we had to go back to the second boss and kill a few adds there, which ended up adding like 6 minutes to our time.
I understand what people are saying, that they want to see more of an emphasis on the bosses being difficult and not the trash, and not invis potting, and this that and the other. But if that were the case, why not just raid? Why not do heroic dungeons? The bosses in both of those are far more difficult than the bosses in CM in comparison to the trash. You guys are really beating around the bush, but it seems as though most of you what class homogenization. Why do you bring a rogue to CM? Great cleave damage (if combat), personal stealth, sap, group stealth, plenty of cc. If you make all the trash see stealth, why then would you bring a rogue? Cleave damage (plenty other classes off this) CC (again, plenty of other classes offer the same thing). Rogues bring a unique advantage to the table if you have one in your group, though you might be losing out on other things, such as a shamans stormlash totem.
I like the way they're at now. You're really forced to think on your feet by making huge decisions at a split second and the amount of coordination that it takes to get through some of these with gold is incredible, that raids simply don't compare to. I know in my CM groups if the tank dies he is instantly Brezd, almost as if he was never dead, in our raids it takes a good 5-8 seconds before brez gets off. lol I only wish we could bring that same level of coordination to raids (the other raid members). A lot of people in this thread (and the countless other ones on the forums) are asking for a more "challenging" challenge mode. If you don't have gold, then stop whining, because you clearly don't understand how challenging they are.
On the note of "make the trash packs harder instead of putting a time limit to make the dungeon harder" a few others have already pointed out the flaw in that statement, but here's the other thing, how would we then have a leaderboard? What would make these competitive between the community? It would say that a group that cleared it in 2 hours is just as good as a group that cleared it in 13 minutes, which is clearly not the case.