Why do hybrids have healing at all?

90 Human Mage
3900
This isn't meant to be a thread asking for nerfs to hybrid classes. I'm not saying any class is, overpowered. However, it seems as though a lot of people are complaining about the effects hybrid healing has on PvP. My question is simple, why do hybrids have to heal at all? I understand why healing is a component of classes like druids, paladins, shamans and priests. At one point in time, it was possible, if not probable for DPS specced hybrids to have to off heal in PvE.

The game has changed a lot in a few years, so why are we still dealing with the vestigial elements of old mechanics? Why not make healing abilities specific to the healing specializations and compensate the DPS specs with their own ways of mitigating damage? It doesn't make sense to treat the symptoms when you can cure the disease.
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1 Human Rogue
0
Because Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, believes that if Hybrids have all the benefits of being a pure dps when specced dps, but also retain the perks of being a hybrid at the same time (generally some form of over-the-top survivability and absurd healing potential), it won't damage pure representation in the slightest.

Never mind the fact that pure numbers have been steadily dropping since they adopted this ideaology.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
Because that's sort of the point of being a hybrid. The whole.. hybrid thing.

Because Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, believes that if Hybrids have all the benefits of being a pure dps when specced dps, but also retain the perks of being a hybrid at the same time (generally some form of over-the-top survivability and absurd healing potential), it won't damage pure representation in the slightest.


Yeah, because pure DPS never have extra tools of their own. And we're really running into a serious issue where Elemental shamans and Balance druids are replacing Mages and Warlocks.
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90 Human Paladin
14125
For Ret Paladins it's easy to see, cause Blizzard removed most of our healing spells. We have little mana and far less spell power then other hybrids. If we heal, it'll be extremely weak and short lived. Warriors can out heal us.

Why do we have healing spells? Probably Blizzards way of reminding you that your class is a healing based class. After all, a lot of people assume that Ret Paladins are a class separate from Holy Paladins, even though it's just a spec. This is Blizzards way to make sure that distinction doesn't get out of control.
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90 Troll Warrior
11630
11/11/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Hallinton
Never mind the fact that pure numbers have been steadily dropping since they adopted this ideaology.


Dubious claim, needs citation.
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90 Draenei Shaman
8695
11/11/2012 01:20 PMPosted by Aureus
Yeah, because pure DPS never have extra tools of their own. And we're really running into a serious issue where Elemental shamans and Balance druids are replacing Mages and Warlocks.


I lol'd
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90 Tauren Druid
19270
11/11/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Hallinton
Never mind the fact that pure numbers have been steadily dropping since they adopted this ideaology.


Never expected to see you here Hal..

Thing is though in mists, they have removed a lot of the tools for healing that hybrids have. As a feral druid I have healing touch, tranquility and rejuv.

Rejuv is useless.... HT is strong but I can cast 3 then I'm oom... unless I use pred swiftness procs (which implies I have to have uptime to get combo points to do so and not CCing) and tranq... well good luck getting that off in serious pvp.

HT is strong for what it is for example because it needs to be. If HT was nerfed then all self heals .. hybrid and pure alike would need to be nerfed to the ground too or removed.

Self healing isn't that great.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
Yeah, because pure DPS never have extra tools of their own. And we're really running into a serious issue where Elemental shamans and Balance druids are replacing Mages and Warlocks.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
From RaidBots 10N data for dps:

DK: 6.55%
Druid: 8.24%
Hunter: 13.03%
Mage: 14.46%
Monk: 3.12%
Paladin: 5.08%
Priest: 11.62%
Rogue: 8.99%
Shaman: 9.15%
Warlock: 12.58%
Warrior: 7.19%

Look at those pures having their spots taken! It's not like the top 3 represented classes are pures and the other pure is basically tied for 5th.
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90 Human Rogue
8775
From RaidBots 10N data for dps:

DK: 6.55%
Druid: 8.24%
Hunter: 13.03%
Mage: 14.46%
Monk: 3.12%
Paladin: 5.08%
Priest: 11.62%
Rogue: 8.99%
Shaman: 9.15%
Warlock: 12.58%
Warrior: 7.19%

Look at those pures having their spots taken! It's not like the top 3 represented classes are pures and the other pure is basically tied for 5th.

I can cite numbers just as meaning less for a PVP thread too!
Let's look at the world first heroic shek'zeer kill:
Death Knight : 1
Druid : 4
Hunter : 1
Mage : 3
Monk : 2
Paladin : 4
Priest : 3
Shaman : 4
Warlock : 2
Warrior : 1

All 4 of their druids were dps.
1 Monk was healer and 1 monk was DPS.
1 Paladin was Holy, 1 was Prot, and 2 were Ret
2 Priests were Disc, 1 was Shadow.
3 Shamans were ele, 1 was resto.

This makes ELEVEN of their dps hybrids.

Compare to:
1 Arms warrior
2 Warlocks
3 Mages
1 Hunter

11 Hybrid dps to 7 Non-hybrid dps. Warriors are hybrid-tank, not hybrid-healer, so I'm going to consider it a pure.

Hybrid tax certainly wouldn't make compelling gameplay, but doing good dps and having decent off-heals is just as bad.
Edited by Suboptimal on 11/11/2012 3:45 PM PST
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11/11/2012 03:42 PMPosted by Suboptimal
Hybrid tax certainly wouldn't make compelling gameplay, but doing good dps and having decent off-heals is just as bad.


I seem to have missed the bit where all hybrids have decent off-heals in their DPS spec. All I've got is Expel Harm (self-heal only) on a CD, Healing Sphere which costs a staggering amount of my available energy, and maybe Chi Wave / Chi Burst which cost half my Chi to even cast once.
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90 Orc Shaman
13040
Were all pure DPS specs not given a heal of some sorts?

Spell steal with glyph?
life drain?
spirit beast?

take our heals but give hybrids the endless CC that all the "Pure" DPS was given. Also take all the free escapes from the pures as well. Ice Block, Fear, traps.

You wish to take utility from hybrids but not 1 time have you mentioned about giving in return. It seems over the course of time Shammies have had taken and taken but what was returned pales in comparison.
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The game has changed a lot in a few years, so why are we still dealing with the vestigial elements of old mechanics? Why not make healing abilities specific to the healing specializations and compensate the DPS specs with their own ways of mitigating damage? It doesn't make sense to treat the symptoms when you can cure the disease.

One could just as well ask why pures have any healing at all.
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90 Orc Warrior
10290
From RaidBots 10N data for dps:

DK: 6.55%
Druid: 8.24%
Hunter: 13.03%
Mage: 14.46%
Monk: 3.12%
Paladin: 5.08%
Priest: 11.62%
Rogue: 8.99%
Shaman: 9.15%
Warlock: 12.58%
Warrior: 7.19%

Look at those pures having their spots taken! It's not like the top 3 represented classes are pures and the other pure is basically tied for 5th.

I can cite numbers just as meaning less for a PVP thread too!
Let's look at the world first heroic shek'zeer kill:
Death Knight : 1
Druid : 4
Hunter : 1
Mage : 3
Monk : 2
Paladin : 4
Priest : 3
Shaman : 4
Warlock : 2
Warrior : 1

All 4 of their druids were dps.
1 Monk was healer and 1 monk was DPS.
1 Paladin was Holy, 1 was Prot, and 2 were Ret
2 Priests were Disc, 1 was Shadow.
3 Shamans were ele, 1 was resto.

This makes ELEVEN of their dps hybrids.

Compare to:
1 Arms warrior
2 Warlocks
3 Mages
1 Hunter

11 Hybrid dps to 7 Non-hybrid dps. Warriors are hybrid-tank, not hybrid-healer, so I'm going to consider it a pure.

Hybrid tax certainly wouldn't make compelling gameplay, but doing good dps and having decent off-heals is just as bad.


You're not and likely never will be in a world first guild

I'm not and likely never will be in a world first guild.

Simply put for approximately 99.99% of the playerbase the 10N Raidbots numbers are FAR more relevent.

EDIT- And who in the hell said this was a PVP thread? This is a DAMAGE DEALING thread in the DAMAGE DEALING FORUMS.
Edited by Lochnar on 11/11/2012 4:29 PM PST
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
11/11/2012 02:15 PMPosted by Amaravati
Yeah, because pure DPS never have extra tools of their own. And we're really running into a serious issue where Elemental shamans and Balance druids are replacing Mages and Warlocks.


I lol'd


I guess I can lol at all the threads of hybrids asking for buffs then because if those specs were over mage/lock specs then there would be 0 reason to bring a mage or a lock while there is plenty of reason for balance or ele even if they do slightly less dps.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12215
So, your claim is that locks provide nothing to help the raid aside from damage? And all hybrids have something powerful enough to overcome low dps?

Funnily enough, despite your claims pures still have way more representation than any hybrid except shadow.
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90 Human Mage
3900

The game has changed a lot in a few years, so why are we still dealing with the vestigial elements of old mechanics? Why not make healing abilities specific to the healing specializations and compensate the DPS specs with their own ways of mitigating damage? It doesn't make sense to treat the symptoms when you can cure the disease.

One could just as well ask why pures have any healing at all.


We aren't discussing whether or not pures should have healing. This is about why hybrids specs should be able to off heal, when making them in essence, "pure DPS" would probably fix a lot balance issues in PvP.
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
The Question I would ask is why shouldn't Hybrids be allowed to heal... Hybrids dps specs are mostly gimmicks relying around one trick. They might have a few more Defensive Cds than pure DPS but it should be noted that they aren't pure DPS.

Look at Enhance, Ret, Boomkin, Spriest, Ele, Even Frost and Unholy DK. If they didn't have the option to switch it up a bit how would they be unique in their own right. When you look at mages, warlocks, and Hunters blasting face it's understandable as to why hybrids are given some gimmick to work around.

Pvp balance issues I don't even think is because of Hybrids being able to heal, the pvp "balance" issue (which pvp will never perfectly be "balanced") seems to have ALOT to do with PVP power.. Pvp power Was added to discourage PVE items being valued over pve items.. However the double edge effect is that PVP power has a HUGE influence over PVP and it's currently know as the "OP" stat. Esentially yes you are getting a 60% Damage Reduction but when ppl can stack on 40%+ "Pvp" Damage increase on top of CD's and Berserking Essentially people are doing near +100% their normal Damage anyways.. in that instance Resil becomes near pointless cause the amount of "HP" your adding with resil can't offset the damage increase classes get.

Since PVP power ALSO Effects how much people heal as well.. Hybriids not only gain increased Damage from PVP power but increased heals as well.. This was never an issue before cause not only were Hybrids purely limited in the amount they could heal due to dropping forms. But their heals didn't do much. Hybrids really didn't get "better" at healing... healing simply just became more valuable mainly cause of the MP:HP ratio and how PVP power effects pvp.

Not to mention how almost every class do relatively little damage outside of their burst.. there's no real "burst" healing, Cept maybe Druids tree form, healing is usually consistently high.

Also for the sake of some of the arguments on here DK's, Warriors, Monks, are all also Hybrids... They all can Sacrifice their Damage to tank some damage. The only pure that can do that is Demo lock.

All the pures are Ranged Except Rogue, the point of Playing a pure would be to do superior damage as most pures should sit on the higher end of the chart. "However blizzard doesn't always honor this". Many Hyrbrids like Feral Druid don't have the manapool to sustain off healing for long... soooo.. their Damage tend to be more on the pure level of things than say... boomkin.

All Hyrbrids are punished heavily for healing in their DPS spec and there heals are barely enough to keep anyone alive esp. not a tank at high lvls. I see no issue here and I don't see any advantage a hybrid has over pures.

Warlocks give you stones that allow you to heal ur self rather, than depending on some *Insert Hybrid name here* (Who would need panels open and watching ppls HP) and full cast a slow heal. If your HP is critical a healthstone is more likely going to save your life than anything else, the only thing close to it being on its level is the priest bubble and maybe tranquility (once every 5mins).
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90 Troll Shaman
13970
11/11/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Marcellena
We aren't discussing whether or not pures should have healing. This is about why hybrids specs should be able to off heal, when making them in essence, "pure DPS" would probably fix a lot balance issues in PvP.


Dps hybrid specs have heals because they are balanced around it. They have the ability to heal themselves and others but sacrifice things like control, defensive cooldowns, and escape mechanisms that the pures have.

Dps hybrid specs have heals because it adds variety to the game. If you take heals away from hybrids, how to you make them viable and different from the existing pures?

And the ability for dps healing hybrids to heal others is hardly the most broken thing in pvp right now. Right now the main problems are warrior burst, hunter (a pure!) burst, and mage (a pure!) control + burst.
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