For the FIRST TIME!!!!

100 Human Rogue
8210
Lets bring up an interesting idea.

What class would you say is the #1 most played class in pvp overall? The number one class that people level and play for pvp purposes not pve purposes whatsoever.

I would say that class is probably rogue.

wonder what's going to happen when all the rogues annual pass runs out :P


Rogues are nowhere near the most played class.

Blizzard gave them legendaries because they were the least played class.


Post clearly states that rogues are one of the most played classes "IN PVP" not pve.

Legionaries and vial effected pvp negatively. Giving rogues too much attention and too many Nerfs.

Rogues had too much survivability last season but they only needed half of the nerfs they recieved.

There has never been a presence swing this large in any other season. Rogues have always had a decent presence because they've always been a class that people played to pvp.

That's still true. They are just so awful that no one is playing them.
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100 Human Rogue
8210

There has never been a presence swing this large in any other season. Rogues have always had a decent presence because they've always been a class that people played to pvp.


You know at the start of season 9 Hunters had LESS THAN 1% representation?


Once again you don't read.

Swing.

Swing means from one end to the other.

Hunters are faceroll and op right now. What are you trying to advocate for? That less players like to play hunters and cheer their pets on?

Even when hunters are extremely op their representation is lower because less hunters pvp than other classes.
Edited by Shobek on 11/21/2012 10:07 AM PST
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Kinda hard to have a presence change that big, when rogues were so op they were at the highest representation of anything in the history of the game.

But hey, Hunters still got the lowest representation record. Dirty rogues trying to have it all.


Yeah man, dirty Rogues trying to have it all. They shouldn't have anything!

I can't believe you're still on that schtick.

Look, Every class, including Hunters, should have at least one spec option competitive in a given part of the game. Why? Because all players should be able to at least play the class they enjoy, and not re-roll. For the same reason, it's desirable for both Blizzard and their customers to have as many specs be competitive in as many parts of the game as possible.

You can lament how bad Hunters were in the past all you want, and compare them to how great Rogues were when they were "carried by legendaries," but it doesn't change the desired outcome.

If you're really that deadbeat on acting like a third grader, then maybe you need to go back to third grade.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17100
Rogues would have topped last season without vial or legendaries. Those 2 contributed to about 3% rep max.

Secondly, I still don't get how people don't seem to understand that when warriors finally get theirs, rogue rep will rise. Blizz flat out said when the outliers are balanced the low end outliers will come up.
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Rogues would have topped last season without vial or legendaries. Those 2 contributed to about 3% rep max.


How do you get 3%?

Secondly, I still don't get how people don't seem to understand that when warriors finally get theirs, rogue rep will rise. Blizz flat out said when the outliers are balanced the low end outliers will come up.


Imagine you're an investor. You have 5 options available to you, each with the same risk, but offering different returns.
20%
16%
15%
14%
11%

Now, lets say that the 20% option suddenly disappears. Where do you invest? If you chose the 11% option, I'd suggest a career outside of investment management.
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
Does anyone else just love how the OP just keeps saying legionaries?

Look, Every class, including Hunters, should have at least one spec option competitive in a given part of the game. Why? Because all players should be able to at least play the class they enjoy, and not re-roll. For the same reason, it's desirable for both Blizzard and their customers to have as many specs be competitive in as many parts of the game as possible.

Ya, it's a lot easier to say "All classes should be balanced with each other for all levels of play" when your class is sucking, but I don't remember seeing any of that when rogues were annihilating in late cata. Most of the time when I bring up hunter's horrible representation all I get from people is "Jungyup!", "L2P" and "Some hunters are 2200 so you are fine."
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11/21/2012 05:22 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Ya, it's a lot easier to say "All classes should be balanced with each other for all levels of play" when your class is sucking, but I don't remember seeing any of that when rogues were annihilating in late cata. Most of the time when I bring up hunter's horrible representation all I get from people is "Jungyup!", "L2P" and "Some hunters are 2200 so you are fine."


Actually, I said that many times last expansion, including in Hunter threads, and in discussion with you. Moreover, I wasn't the only one (Rogue player or otherwise) who said it.

There are always going to be plenty of trolls, morons, and immature brats, their existence is a poor excuse to join them. Instead of lamenting how mean they were to you and using it to justify supporting their "arguments," why not just support a great game for everyone?
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
11/21/2012 09:03 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Ya, it's a lot easier to say "All classes should be balanced with each other for all levels of play" when your class is sucking, but I don't remember seeing any of that when rogues were annihilating in late cata. Most of the time when I bring up hunter's horrible representation all I get from people is "Jungyup!", "L2P" and "Some hunters are 2200 so you are fine."


Actually, I said that many times last expansion, including in Hunter threads, and in discussion with you. Moreover, I wasn't the only one (Rogue player or otherwise) who said it.

There are always going to be plenty of trolls, morons, and immature brats, their existence is a poor excuse to join them. Instead of lamenting how mean they were to you and using it to justify supporting their "arguments," why not just support a great game for everyone?

I do support a great game for everyone, but it's pretty silly, seeing so many rogues now a days playing the victim as much as they are. Not saying that you aren't doing poorly now, but using the whole "Just make the game good and balanced for everybody" argument in a thread that is about rogue representation, it just sounds so silly when rogues used to be the almighty overlords of PvP, while many other classes waddled trying to get some of their glory to rub off onto them. You should understand that being such a class that is very often balanced at the least and OP from time to time, you are going to get a lot of players coming in and telling you you deserve it. I don't necessarily agree with them of course but they do have a point. Blizzard doesn't seem to have a balancing formula that involves all classes and specs being equal in strength, and while a so called 2% representation is not good in the slightest, there is no need to make it seem like the sky is falling, especially when this has only been the case for not even one patch, the first patch of an xpac, which is always the most wonky and least balanced.

2% representation should be all you need to tell everyone that you should be balanced with other classes. The whole "Make us balanced because everyone deserves to be balanced" thing doesn't really have a place in such an argument like this, as blizzard can't simply balance all classes at once, some would have to come first, and thinking that the first to be buffed should be the class that spent the end of the last xpac dominating everybody instead of some of the classes/specs that haven't really ever been good, you can't really blame them for being like that.
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11/21/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
I don't necessarily agree with them of course but they do have a point.


No, they don't have a point. They are making the same mistake you are, taking Rogues as a collective group "Rogues don't cry when they are OP but Rogues cry when they're UP!" instead of as a collection of individuals.

These jerks you're following in the footsteps of, they don't take into account the old-hands who said "Uh oh, here we going, we're going to get a lot of FotM rerollers!" when the legendaries came out, or the Arena Junkies and Elitists who said "this stinks, I want a balanced game!" No, they hear all the QQers and Trolls and take that as the main Rogue viewpoint.

Stupid.

Spinnerh, you're as biased for your favorite class as the rest of us are for our own, but you don't always take that viewpoint. Don't be stupid, don't follow the jerks.

11/21/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
2% representation should be all you need to tell everyone that you should be balanced with other classes.


Actually, as an argument, the whole 2% thing doesn't work very well. GC has already been quoted for saying that Blizzard doesn't balance around representation, something I think you Hunters are keenly aware of.

11/21/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
in such an argument like this, as blizzard can't simply balance all classes at once, some would have to come first, and thinking that the first to be buffed should be the class that spent the end of the last xpac dominating everybody instead of some of the classes/specs that haven't really ever been good, you can't really blame them for being like that.


Actually, yes they can adjust multiple classes at once, and I for one think they should. I understand why they aren't, they don't want to risk overbalancing. Unfortunately, it looks like they are being too conservative here. Their comments, both in the forums and in tweets, strongly suggest they don't understand the depth of the problems with the Rogue class. Knocking Warriors down a peg or two won't fix Rogues, and while Blizzard's waiting for it to happen, a large section of their player-base that's been vocal for months is now waiting ... probably for months more.

I know, I know, they've done the same to Hunters and many specs of many classes; I'm not going to pretend they didn't! Just because it wasn't smart then doesn't suddenly make it smart now. Again, don't be one of those jerks who pretends otherwise, it doesn't suit, well, anybody.
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42 Draenei Mage
550

There has never been a presence swing this large in any other season.


DKs dropped from like, 30% to 2% after their second set of nerfs in Wrath.
Edited by Mirari on 11/21/2012 11:51 PM PST
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97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
No, they don't have a point. They are making the same mistake you are, taking Rogues as a collective group "Rogues don't cry when they are OP but Rogues cry when they're UP!" instead of as a collection of individuals.

That's obviously not what I am saying they have a point on.

Spinnerh, you're as biased for your favorite class as the rest of us are for our own, but you don't always take that viewpoint. Don't be stupid, don't follow the jerks.

I don't follow the jerks, but I certainly believe that there is at least some substance to wanting these classes that have been underpowered for a long time to be buffed up to viability before rogues, who were stupidly OP last xpac. It doesn't have anything to do with how many people posted about whatever whenever.

Actually, as an argument, the whole 2% thing doesn't work very well. GC has already been quoted for saying that Blizzard doesn't balance around representation, something I think you Hunters are keenly aware of.

Well that seems to be all I am seeing for the most part, other than saying rogues have poor mobility and to much reliance on passive damage. Representation does mean something, I don't think that we all have to think outside of the box to know that GC isn't exactly the perfect dev. Even if they don't balance around representation, they can't simply ignore it, they have to take it into account to realize that some classes are sucking.

Actually, yes they can adjust multiple classes at once, and I for one think they should. I understand why they aren't, they don't want to risk overbalancing. Unfortunately, it looks like they are being too conservative here. Their comments, both in the forums and in tweets, strongly suggest they don't understand the depth of the problems with the Rogue class. Knocking Warriors down a peg or two won't fix Rogues, and while Blizzard's waiting for it to happen, a large section of their player-base that's been vocal for months is now waiting ... probably for months more.

Well a patch that simultaneously fixes all the broken classes would be nice, but those things don't happen and simply saying "Yes they can." doesn't really make a difference, because they never happen. Blizzard is always to conservative with buffs and much to drastic with nerfs, not a good combination.

I know, I know, they've done the same to Hunters and many specs of many classes; I'm not going to pretend they didn't! Just because it wasn't smart then doesn't suddenly make it smart now. Again, don't be one of those jerks who pretends otherwise, it doesn't suit, well, anybody.

Just because people are on the opposite end of the argument doesn't make them jerks. I don't agree that rogues shouldn't be fixed, but I do agree that similarly failing classes and specs that have been failing for a much longer time should be fixed first. Rogues aren't very dandy in PvP right now, and while feedback is one thing, seeing the fotm rerollers making such a fuss about it and then those who claimed they said rogues were OP in cata (Like you) are supporting them is just unnecessary. Just don't hop onto the "Classes/specs that suck" bandwagon and expect to instantly gain all of the benefits, some of us have been waiting in line for much longer.
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11/22/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
Even if they don't balance around representation, they can't simply ignore it, they have to take it into account to realize that some classes are sucking.


11/22/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
I don't agree that rogues shouldn't be fixed, but I do agree that similarly failing classes and specs that have been failing for a much longer time should be fixed first.


You're priorities are messed up.

At a minimum, all classes should be competitive in every aspect of the game, even if only in one spec per aspect, to ensure that players of that class don't have to re-roll. There is no need to balance one class before another, they can all be bumped up or down at the same time.

Beyond that, it is highly desirable, for players and therefore for Blizzard, to have as many specs of as many classes competitive in as many aspects of the game as possible.

Certainly there's a priority in getting a class that's been down and out for a long time back up to par (they shouldn't have been out that long in the first place!), but there's no reason that other classes should have to wait. There's absolutely no reason that a spec, one choice with a certain class, should ever take precedence over an entire class.

11/22/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Spinnerdh
Just because people are on the opposite end of the argument doesn't make them jerks.


People aren't "jerks" for disagreeing, they are jerks for wanting other people's game experience to suffer.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17100
11/21/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
Rogues would have topped last season without vial or legendaries. Those 2 contributed to about 3% rep max.


How do you get 3%?
Secondly, I still don't get how people don't seem to understand that when warriors finally get theirs, rogue rep will rise. Blizz flat out said when the outliers are balanced the low end outliers will come up.


Imagine you're an investor. You have 5 options available to you, each with the same risk, but offering different returns.
20%
16%
15%
14%
11%

Now, lets say that the 20% option suddenly disappears. Where do you invest? If you chose the 11% option, I'd suggest a career outside of investment management.


I'd say you stop while you're behind.

The hunter rep is frozen for one.

Also, the real rogues aren't going to shift back to their mains until 5.2 or so.

Lastly, the point was not that the warriors were going to change to rogues. The point was that in the shift rogue rep would rise just because everyone is going to take a piece of the pie warriors had. If you don't realize that's going to happen then you're hopeless on understanding how arena balance has always worked.

Also I'd love to know where all these rogues were who claim they "just want to be playable" or "don't think they should suffer at such a low rep" when ele, enh, and balance were down lower than that last season? I didn't see any Madcapmcgee calling for buffs for those guys. Weird....
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100 Human Rogue
11250
Ele, enhance, and balance are classes right? If I could respec and be viable I would in a second.
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90 Goblin Rogue
7975
11/21/2012 09:17 PMPosted by Spinnerdh
Not saying that you aren't doing poorly now, but using the whole "Just make the game good and balanced for everybody" argument in a thread that is about rogue representation, it just sounds so silly when rogues used to be the almighty overlords of PvP, while many other classes waddled trying to get some of their glory to rub off onto them.


I've said it and I'll keep saying it. Game balance should not be dictated by who used to be OP or UP. Balance is balance, and Blizzard should strive to make everyone have an equal shot. Every time I hear this argument about X class having been overpowered in the past and therefore deserves to be nerfed "to the ground" I want to kick the person making it in the teeth. By that logic it would be ok for Hunters to still have the stampede bug judging by the rep. they had at the begining of Cata. And in the future Rogues should simply one-shot everyone with combo point builders.

God dammit I'm sick of this !@#$.
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11/23/2012 09:39 AMPosted by Purebalance
I'd say you stop while you're behind.


This is why you're not an investment adviser.

Lastly, the point was not that the warriors were going to change to rogues. The point was that in the shift rogue rep would rise just because everyone is going to take a piece of the pie warriors had. If you don't realize that's going to happen then you're hopeless on understanding how arena balance has always worked.


Maybe, or maybe a couple nerfs to Warriors won't cause so many to re-roll. Why not? Because now they are invested in maining their Warriors. The ones it does cause to re-roll are likely just FotMers. Personally, I don't care. The leaderboards aren't bereft of of Rogues because all the top players left, they are empty because it's really really hard for Rogues to get that high right now. Warrior nerfs might, might pull back a few more Rogues, but that won't really change who's doing well.

Also I'd love to know where all these rogues were who claim they "just want to be playable" or "don't think they should suffer at such a low rep" when ele, enh, and balance were down lower than that last season? I didn't see any Madcapmcgee calling for buffs for those guys. Weird....


I did post in some Feral, Hunter, and Warrior threads, but I don't have time to advocate for everyone, especially classes and specs I am less familiar with. Unless a certain suggestion hard counters another class, I don't go in to those other threads and say "no." I try and work with them to come up with a better solution. All that said, there's also this:

Ele, enhance, and balance are classes right? If I could respec and be viable I would in a second.


It's not THAT easy of course, but they do have the option to re-spec. Right now, Rogues don't. No class should be in that situation, not Rogues now, not Hunters for the last n expansions, not anybody. Quite frankly, it's bad for business.
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