You've really ruined frost mages.

100 Human Mage
14165
Considering how bitterly people complain when they feel they are forced into a particular talent or glyph due to numerical superiority, I can't agree that people don't care about having playstyle choices. If there is a glyph that increases DPS, of course people will take it — but not because they want to.

As for your last paragraph, certainly in the past glyphs had always had "best options" that pretty much everyone used. In the Mists design, however, that problem has been pretty well solved; apart from the two I mentioned, Mages are pretty much free to take what they want. Sometimes those choices will change depending on the situation. But happily, we're no longer in a situation where there are three glyphs everyone wants applied 100% of the time, and I think suggestions that we return to such a design are badly misguided.

I am not suggesting returning to anything. I am simply tired of PvP suffering so PvE can choose between shooting a Fireball or a Frost Bolt. That is the simplest way i can sum this up for you. PvErs for some reason thinks they need to have a choice between all 3 specs even if it leaves PvP with 0 enjoyable specs.
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100 Draenei Mage
19565
10/29/2012 08:25 AMPosted by Wyndoor
I am not suggesting returning to anything. I am simply tired of PvP suffering so PvE can choose between shooting a Fireball or a Frost Bolt. That is the simplest way i can sum this up for you. PvErs for some reason thinks they need to have a choice between all 3 specs even if it leaves PvP with 0 enjoyable specs.


I'm pretty sure this is the first time in about 6 years that PVP frost is suffering because of PVE.

We all know what we want: different rules for PVE and PVP. We know it would solve a bunch of problems and is probably the most straight-forward solution. But we're not going to get it because Blizzard has some irrational hatred for the concept.

Instead we get to live with what someone earlier in the thread called an arms race because Blizzard won't pick a direction and stick with it.
Edited by Ryegeleye on 10/29/2012 8:35 AM PDT
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100 Human Mage
14165
10/29/2012 08:33 AMPosted by Ryegeleye
I am not suggesting returning to anything. I am simply tired of PvP suffering so PvE can choose between shooting a Fireball or a Frost Bolt. That is the simplest way i can sum this up for you. PvErs for some reason thinks they need to have a choice between all 3 specs even if it leaves PvP with 0 enjoyable specs.


I'm pretty sure this is the first time in about 6 years that PVP frost is suffering because of PVE.

PvE has had fire and Arcane while PvP has only had Frost for a very long time. As i said i don't think PvP should be ruined so you guys can watch pretty blue icicles fly across your screen instead of fireballs.
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100 Draenei Mage
19565
We'll PVE Fire is about to get ruined because in their imaginary PVP world some mages are able to get "7" Pyroblasts off within a 5 second Deep Freeze stun thanks to Shatter.

It cuts both ways.
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100 Human Mage
14165
We'll PVE Fire is about to get ruined because in their imaginary PVP world some mages are able to get "7" Pyroblasts off within a 5 second Deep Freeze stun thanks to Shatter.

It cuts both ways.

Yes it does cut both ways but the cut with pvp ruining pve is barely a flesh wound while pvp getting screwed because of people crying they want *insert spec* to be pve viable is through the bone and practically out the other side.
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90 Goblin Mage
9540
I'm a little frustrated with frost pvp atm - it's way, way too gimmicky. Sometimes it takes me forever to get someone low. Sometimes I drop them in 3 seconds. There's really no inbetween.

We need to have our burst nerfed and our sustained more reliable.
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90 Undead Priest
0
Swampdonkey's not a troll; he's a longtime poster who's contributed quite a bit of good conversation to the forum.

Although in this particular case, my response to him would be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R6_Chr2vro

But he and I have very different priorities.
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Weren't you the guy back in Wrath who wanted to destroy PVP because Frost wasn't as strong in PVE than the other specs?
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Swampdonkey's not a troll; he's a longtime poster who's contributed quite a bit of good conversation to the forum.

Although in this particular case, my response to him would be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R6_Chr2vro

But he and I have very different priorities.
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Oh Lhiv, always the comedic debater!
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64 Worgen Hunter
8455
10/28/2012 05:06 AMPosted by Goonhah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6-lfLMgWlg
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90 Human Mage
7065
Considering how bitterly people complain when they feel they are forced into a particular talent or glyph due to numerical superiority, I can't agree that people don't care about having playstyle choices. If there is a glyph that increases DPS, of course people will take it — but not because they want to.

As for your last paragraph, certainly in the past glyphs had always had "best options" that pretty much everyone used. In the Mists design, however, that problem has been pretty well solved; apart from the two I mentioned, Mages are pretty much free to take what they want. Sometimes those choices will change depending on the situation. But happily, we're no longer in a situation where there are three glyphs everyone wants applied 100% of the time, and I think suggestions that we return to such a design are badly misguided.


I agree that people want playstyle choices. I also agree that all three specs should be pve viable. But let's get real here. There is no magically more dynamic game play because these three glyphs are better on this encounter vs three different ones on another encounter. I think as far as pvp goes, blizz did a pretty good job with glyphs (outside of poly being mandatory, should be baseline considering almost every class has dots now). I typically switch a glyph out before every match.

The lack of logic I see with the mage design is this. The deep freeze doing damage could have been tuned in any way to make frost dps viable. It's arguably fairly hard to say that this felt more clunky than trying to keep a dot/bomb up on a spec that isn't a dot class and never has been. I'm sure you could argue it, but it wouldn't be logical.

The problem is this. I've seen you say that design should not be affected by pvp at all. Someone with that type of mentality should hardly be the go to person for developers regarding mage design. Argue it however you like, there's a NPC with your name on it so it's pretty apparent that you have a lot of influence. I think blizz fails to realize how many players play this game exclusively for pvp, but I have a feeling they will be finding out next quarter.
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100 Human Mage
14165
I think blizz fails to realize how many players play this game exclusively for pvp, but I have a feeling they will be finding out next quarter.

Yes they will be finding out the hard way, my guild use to have 50+ online every night doing constant world pvp, you would be lucky to see 18 of us online now. Now theres no new pvp zone that flying mounts don't ruin, hardened shell was a colossal disappointment and to top it all off mage is awful to play now and we have people who do nothing but PvE on these forums going on and on getting us ruined further.

Needless to say alot of my people quit playing and i am sure alot more have/will be as well. All of this so the PvErs can feel so special being able to shoot blue projectiles instead of red ones.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9330
They're completely squandering this game's potential by not separating the two games further.

I really don't buy that they think players are all too stupid to understand it, I think they simply don't care enough. 'We make tons of money from this game so why change anything?'

@ Wyndoor: there really doesn't have to be any strife between pvpers and pvers :P
Edited by Swampdonkeys on 11/2/2012 12:08 PM PDT
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100 Orc Warlock
15645
10/28/2012 12:36 AMPosted by Vandaro
should of


should've
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100 Goblin Mage
STL
9570
I will say perhaps the nerfs were a bit harsh. Mages have always been a slippery class, that's fine that is how they work. But over the course of the last couple expansions they have gotten over the top with how slippery they are. If you lack a silence or your silence requires you to be in melee range, it puts you at a loss because you can almost never get in melee range of a mage to use it considering how easily they can get away.

Then out of no where mages are given an active defense spell ice barrier. A slippery class does not need a defensive barrier like that. They have mage armor for dots, they can silence and dispel to handle casters as well as all the tools needed to avoid being in melee range.

Anyone who lacks the ability to dispel (including a teammate) is forced to burst down ice barrier. Considering how low the CD is for ice barrier, 9 times out of 10 we have to burst down 2 ice barriers before we can actually damage a mage. That is while avoiding all the control and damage they are pumping out at the same time.

And then mages are trying to justify this blatant imbalance.


Huh, your a rogue you know you can stealth up into melee range right? Get the drop on someone. Warriors have several ways to stay on you, that seem to never be on cool down, death knights have grip, and various snares and slows to stay on you as well. Don't say melee have no way to get in close.

Also, you want ice barrier gone? Remove priest shield. Remove death knight shell, remove cloak of shadows, remove spell reflect.
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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
11/02/2012 12:07 PMPosted by Swampdonkeys
I really don't buy that they think players are all too stupid to understand it, I think they simply don't care enough.


"Stupid" isn't the word, but they're totally correct. I don't think you hang out in the Mage forum much, but in Wrath and Cataclysm, there seemed to be posts daily from players (new and old) looking for an explanation of the Deep Freeze damage mechanic. They found it very confusing, and it convinced me completely that Blizzard is correct that separating the mechanics would cause a great deal more such confusion and frustration.

Having spells that do one thing against one Orc and another thing against another Orc is just not good design.

As I said upthread (I think it was this thread, anyway), it may be a necessary evil at this point -- but I don't think it should have any effect other than numbers. If the spell does the same thing, but just has different durations or generates a different quantity of damage, I think people would handle that reasonably easily.
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95 Night Elf Druid
9620
They found it very confusing, and it convinced me completely that Blizzard is correct that separating the mechanics would cause a great deal more such confusion and frustration.


It would cause some confusion at first but given time players would figure it out.

What causes MUCH more frustration is having imbalanced pvp every expansion with tons of nerfs and changes over the cycle of an expansion which also leads to a lot of confusion as players try to keep up with all the nerfs and changes.

I just think separating pvp and pve would lessen the amount of nerfs/buffs and create less confusion overall for the playerbase.
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90 Human Priest
6220
10/28/2012 01:29 PMPosted by Lhivera
Doesn't it seem like a more general PvP solution to reduce incoming damage over a certain threshold might work better?


We've been trying to get the devs to do this for years Lhivera, by making the spells operate differently on players than on mobs, but they still aren't biting. They somehow think it's too "complicated" to deal with two differing rulesets...and then make a game complicated enough that Elitist Jerks style guides are necessary for raiding and such.

They need to just get over themselves and bite the bullet, or we'll never see a happy medium between PvE and PvP.

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MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
11/03/2012 07:54 AMPosted by Ginx
They found it very confusing, and it convinced me completely that Blizzard is correct that separating the mechanics would cause a great deal more such confusion and frustration.


It would cause some confusion at first but given time players would figure it out.


After three years, people were still confused about the dual function of Deep Freeze.
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95 Night Elf Druid
9620
11/03/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Lhivera
After three years, people were still confused about the dual function of Deep Freeze.


That's because it's been changed, along with tons of other buffs, nerfs and complete rehauls over and over to try to accommodate both pvp and pve. It's the same buff/nerf rollercoaster GC has talked about in the past and we're still riding it. I think a little consistency would serve the playerbase better than assuming the majority of us are too dumb to understand that some abilities function differently in pve and pvp.

I also think DF is an extreme example since most abilities wouldn't need to do two completely different things depending on the setting (pve or pvp). I would imagine most of the changes could come in the form of damage modifiers behind the scenes to certain abilities to tone them down in pvp while not affecting pve dmg at all. Now if frost starts to fall behind in raiding to fire and arcane at some point blizzard can easily increase the damage of frostbolt against NPC's and not affect pvp at all. I think something like that would be a good start at least.
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