Monk Buffs?! Seriously?

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"Mistweaver

Brewing: Mana Tea has a new additional effect: You have a chance equal to your crit chance to generate double the Mana Tea charges.

Stance of the Wise Serpent now also increases haste from items by 150%."

Seriously, WTF?

Now to constructive feedback:

Monks right now are the best healers for raids, their HPS are unmatched, they may lack the raid CD's that other healers bring, but their HPS is so absurd in the raid setting we have today that its better to bring a monk without Cd's then to bring a druid with tranquility for a Elegon on last phase, because monk can keep with the damage, wile the druid can only keep people with the CD, then everyone will start dying.
I know that its possible to heal it as a druid, but the fact stands, its better to bring a monk...

Everyone knows that monks right now are BROKEN to PvE healing.
Look at World of Logs numbers. And im not talking about Top100 Parces, but overall parces, monks are WAY more powerful.

Druids on the other hand have the worst AOE Burst healing, the Super-nerfed Mushrooms, and instead of us being changed, we see monk HUGE BUFFS?!

You buffed Priests twice, and they still needs some tweaks, and that just to show how FAR blizzard were off the marks on the balancing of the healers.
Now i know they are trying to resolve the problems, and balance it again, but why a HUGE monk buff?

Shamans and Paladins are on an OK ground, druids just need a burst AoE Healing, maybe doubling the healing of Mushrooms or maybe x3 and adding the Cap of healed targets or changing the diminishing returns.
Priests still need buffs, and monks need a NERF on their HPS, and a buff to their Raid CD. Instead of total 5 attacks reduction, change it for a Time, and a lower %, maybe alittle lower then Priest Barrier, but affecting the whole spread raid, giving it a unique aspect, without making it useless or overpowered depending on the fight.

Something needs to change badly! I dont know what is happening or how blizzard can think that a 150% buff to monk Hast, or a increase in their OVERPOWERED mana regen mechanic is a good thing.
Its ok, i understand that you want to make other stats more appealing to monks, and also want to change their PvP, but you cant do it this way without making monks completely DOMINATE other healers on PvE.

Right now if those changes goes live, you will OBLIGATE me to change to a monk to keep raiding. Everyone knows, and blizzard admitted it many times that players goes for the "best" or "easiest" path, even if the other healers "can" heal the encounters, it will just be faster or easier with a monk. Every time you wipe on that last few % it will feel as "oh... if we just had a monk instead of that priest, or a monk instead of that pally we would have succeed"

Seriously... look at all top guild streams, look at the healing numbers... its insane! Monks completly dominate the meters, i know meters for healers are not equal for dps's but a so HUGE difference on almost all fights, that happens on all guilds, it means something is wrong.

Please explain me how those insane buffs were required, or even acceptable?!
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
Lets go over a few things.

-The Soothing Mist buff (reduction in mana cost and 35% chance to proc Chi, up form 25%) was done because while it may not look like that monk mana sustain is actually negative. We have to spend mana to spend chi to then consume tea stacks. There wasn't a real "mana neutral" way to (start) healing.

-The buff to Mana Tea is a pretty obvious one but ties into other reasons that I'll describe below: Itemization flavor. That, and to help with gaining mana.

-Stance of the Wise Serpent buff was one that I don't think many of us saw coming. The reality of it though is that our haste breakpoints are so wildly high that we don't have much of a reason to look at haste. Or mastery. Or much of anything else. With the sideways buff to crit through Mana Tea, and the buff to our stance, it offers a more robust way of us looking at gearing options.

The problem here is that you're looking at these buffs as direct ways to increase healing and they aren't. They've been done because of QoL issues.

10/30/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Sàtàn
Seriously... look at all top guild streams, look at the healing numbers... its insane! Monks completly dominate the meters, i know meters for healers are not equal for dps's but a so HUGE difference on almost all fights, that happens on all guilds, it means something is wrong.


Monks in 25 mans are pretty funny to watch, but in 10 mans we're quite balanced.

10/30/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Sàtàn
Priests still need buffs, and monks need a NERF on their HPS, and a buff to their Raid CD.


So let me get this straight: You want a nerf to Monks overall HPS but want a buff to their one (and only) raid cooldown?

Explain how that's supposed to actually fix the issue here?
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Edited by Staccato on 10/30/2012 3:16 PM PDT
monk buffs are not needed imo, we provide plenty dps while doing comparable if not better healing than other healers.
90 Undead Monk
3490
We also go OOM rather fast if we try to dps that way. Its fine for 5 mans, but certainly not a valid way to heal in a raid.

We do a lot of healing by hots and smart heals. We naturally are going to snipe a lot of heals from other classes, but our mana longevity kinda sucked. These changes will help.
90 Human Monk
10240
I don't see the problem. They just need to fix Monks in 25m raids. We're too good there. I guess you didn't convince me.

In a 10M setting, we don't even bring that much comparative "power" as you're calling it.
90 Blood Elf Priest
APM
9650
10/30/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Sàtàn
Druids on the other hand have the worst AOE Burst healing


Disc priests would like to have a word with you.

I have to agree that monks needed nerfing not buffs.

10/30/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Staccato
The problem here is that you're looking at these buffs as direct ways to increase healing and they aren't. They've been done because of QoL issues.


With all the inequalitys in wow buffing a already OP class and ignoring many real QoL issues for classes that actually suffer is a cop out .
Edited by Loratabb on 10/30/2012 3:52 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Priest
1845
-The buff to Mana Tea is a pretty obvious one but ties into other reasons that I'll describe below: Itemization flavor. That, and to help with gaining mana.

-Stance of the Wise Serpent buff was one that I don't think many of us saw coming. The reality of it though is that our haste breakpoints are so wildly high that we don't have much of a reason to look at haste. Or mastery. Or much of anything else. With the sideways buff to crit through Mana Tea, and the buff to our stance, it offers a more robust way of us looking at gearing options.


None of this changes the fact that by buffing secondary stats for a class you are buffing the class since nobody can avoid all bad stats. Just because they buff stats to be equally attractive doesn't mean you don't gain power since you no doubt have a little bit of crit and haste whether you want it or not.

So let me get this straight: You want a nerf to Monks overall HPS but want a buff to their one (and only) raid cooldown?

Explain how that's supposed to actually fix the issue here?


This is an easy one. Lets assume monks do too much HPS. Lets also assume monks lack raid cooldowns/utility aside from that high HPS. This means that top end guilds will bring monks when high HPS is key and will bench them when cooldowns/utility are key. If monk raw HPS is nerfed and their utility is increased then they are less likely to be stacked in the former case and benched in the prior case. Right now HPS is preferable but who knows if perhaps raid cooldowns will be preferrable in the future fights when everyone has gear?
Staccato:
I understand the idea behind changing how itemization is working for monks, but they already out-lasted the other healers mana, wile having a HPS hugely better, both in 25-man and in 10-man. Just look at 10-man raids on WoL, or go watch some 10-man streams.

They are FAR from balanced, they lack a descent Raid CD, and they tried to compensate it by giving them better HPS, but theyr HPS is so HUGE that its sometimes better them a druid tranquility...

Fixing mana regeneration for monks, and letting the other healers mana broken?
Because if you think monks mana needed fixing, then ALL other healers needs it too, and none are getting it.

Fact is, look at the end of all fights, monks have more mana, hugely more healing done, and they have OP Aoe healing bursts to save the raid, and right now we dont even bother healing the tanks, because all the damage that really matters are high spiky aoe raid damage.
The problem with expecting Raid CD's to be a necessity, is that Druids also lack them... Tranquility is only extra healing, not a damage reduction, and Ironbark is the only real reduction CD, its weaker the the other classes CD's and is single target.

If the fights needs CD's them raids will stack shamans and disc priests.

Holy Priests, and Druids will still suck.
So this is still bad design. Making Monks the must have for HPS, and Disc Priests and Shamans the must haves for Raid CD, is BAD. (Pallys are balanced in this, not being the best but being ok in both)
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
10/30/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Keloras
None of this changes the fact that by buffing secondary stats for a class you are buffing the class since nobody can avoid all bad stats. Just because they buff stats to be equally attractive doesn't mean you don't gain power since you no doubt have a little bit of crit and haste whether you want it or not.


Do you realize just how bad every other stat was other than crit for Monk was?

10/30/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Keloras
This is an easy one. Lets assume monks do too much HPS. Lets also assume monks lack raid cooldowns/utility aside from that high HPS. This means that top end guilds will bring monks when high HPS is key and will bench them when cooldowns/utility are key. If monk raw HPS is nerfed and their utility is increased then they are less likely to be stacked in the former case and benched in the prior case. Right now HPS is preferable but who knows if perhaps raid cooldowns will be preferrable in the future fights when everyone has gear?


Newsflash: The only raid cooldown that monks have is HPS. Nerfing the overall HPS of a class, but buffing an HPS cooldown doesn't do anything to the overall healing of that specific class to begin with.

That's like saying to nerf Rejuv but buff Tranquility. You're going to come out with the same outcome as before.

10/30/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Sàtàn
I understand the idea behind changing how itemization is working for monks, but they already out-lasted the other healers mana, wile having a HPS hugely better, both in 25-man and in 10-man.


Now you're just speaking out of hyperbole.

The design of monk mana regen isn't even parallel (yet) to another class. We just expend resources to then gain mana back (not even a net/profit amount, we're always losing mana).

You already acknowledged that the one thing that monks bring to a raid is HPS, but then point to HPS as a crutch for your argument. That doesn't make sense to me - you're not making a logistical comparison.

10/30/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Sàtàn
Fixing mana regeneration for monks, and letting the other healers mana broken?


Who's mana regen is broken, and who's mana regen design is broken here? Paladins are fine. Shamans are fine. Druids are fine. The last I've heard about priests from a friend in a 25M guild was that they weren't experiencing too many problems.

10/30/2012 03:58 PMPosted by Sàtàn
Making Monks the must have for HPS, and Disc Priests and Shamans the must haves for Raid CD, is BAD. (Pallys are balanced in this, not being the best but being ok in both)


Except in this healing environment it's really hard to say any class is 'needed.'

People said that you /needed/ a Disc Priest and/or Paladin for H. Gara'jal and our guild healed it with a Shaman and Monk.

If they wanted to buff the HPS of monks, then they would have left the mastery the way it was (3M unused sphere heals nearby ally), and not remove it.
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Edited by Staccato on 10/30/2012 4:22 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
2140
all i see is you bashing on monks and crying about druids. simply because you are a druid thus want your class to get a huge buff... all nerfs do is kill classes people enjoy playing... right now monks are FUN to play so excuse me if i dont want them nerfed
90 Blood Elf Priest
14035
Totally unnecessary imo. Monks have to be in a pretty damn good spot to be constantly topping meters above any other class on every fight and while HARDLY using any mana actually. Logs don't lie. How about fixing priests instead. :) Agreeing with an above comment referencing to disc priests! Also, wth, druids are still pretty good healers lol
Edited by Aethereal on 10/30/2012 4:22 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Priest
5755
Do we have logs to prove these buffs are even necessary? I don't have a problem with monks getting attention if they need it, I don't want to see any class remain broken or painful to play but there seems to be other classes that need more attention at the moment. Maybe the Monk fix was exceedingly easy for them so they worked it in but from the outside looking in Monks appear to be fine.
MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Pandaren Monk
HC
11700
But i have to agree, compared to monks, every other classes mana regen is weak. Ive watched monks come out of fights with near 70% mana and just rocking the HPS charts.


I would encourage you to point me to the fight/video/log where that happened.

I don't have a problem with monks getting attention if they need it, I don't want to see any class remain broken or painful to play but there seems to be other classes that need more attention at the moment. Maybe the Monk fix was exceedingly easy for them so they worked it in but from the outside looking in Monks appear to be fine.


The TL;DR:

-Monk mana regen was pretty much negative. There wasn't a way to positively gain mana unless there was an outside cooldown (Innervate/Hymn). The reduction in mana cost for Soothing Mist is there to make it a mana neutral spell (A la Heal/Holy Light/Healing Wave), and the Stance/Mastery buff is there simply to give us more gearing options - not to directly touch our throughput.
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10/30/2012 04:27 PMPosted by Staccato
-Monk mana regen was pretty much negative. There wasn't a way to positively gain mana unless there was an outside cooldown (Innervate/Hymn). The reduction in mana cost for Soothing Mist is there to make it a mana neutral spell (A la Heal/Holy Light/Healing Wave), and the Stance/Mastery buff is there simply to give us more gearing options - not to directly touch our throughput.


Uhh, Heal isn't a mana neutral spell. There's a reason why it's not even used at all in raids anymore.

I also do not get the whole point of negative mana regen. Do Monks suddenly not benefit from Spirit now? Do other healers have such positive mana regen that they end fights with full mana?

If you want a better picture of Monk sustain, go take a look at Heroic Will logs (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Will_of_the_Emperor/25H/100/14/60/default/#fo00000). It's a 10 min fight with high amounts of healing required. If Monks have such terrible sustain, you wouldn't see them doing so much better in relation to the other healers.

10/30/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Staccato
-Stance of the Wise Serpent buff was one that I don't think many of us saw coming. The reality of it though is that our haste breakpoints are so wildly high that we don't have much of a reason to look at haste. Or mastery. Or much of anything else. With the sideways buff to crit through Mana Tea, and the buff to our stance, it offers a more robust way of us looking at gearing options.


This point can practically be applied to every other healer. I'm glad that Monks got QoL changes, but it's quite hard to justify these buffs for Monks, whilst healers who fill similar niches are lagging behind them.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
Where are people seeing all these buffs? They're not in the patch notes.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10175
First page of mmo champ
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