Monk Buffs?! Seriously?

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8 Dwarf Priest
0
On a side note, I think the RM change is a little extreme myself. I mean it really is their bread and butter spell.


The base heal and scaling spellpower coefficient were nerfed, but instead of healing every 3 seconds, its now every 2. So it should tick 9 times every 18 sec instead of just 6. That, I think, will keep the average healing per person per cast about the same.

So its really just about the one less jump per cast, which as others have said is probably more about nerfing Uplift than anything else, since they don't appear interested in changing Uplift's functionality.
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96 Pandaren Monk
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11755
11/03/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Kolas
You're once again focusing on completely irrelevant data. You don't need to know these things, or rather more specifically, what you're implying is necessary on my part isn't actually necessary.


Wrong. See, the thing about the data that you see from WoL is that they don't give you the full scope of everything happening in a raid. WoL does not tell you player skill, strat, or concept behind a comp. What you see are numbers and your interpretation of them. Monk numbers are high in WoL. Blizzard on the PTR have tuned them accordingly. That doesn't make other classes broken or weak.

Your personal anecdotal data does miles more than WoL for Blizzard because guess what? They already have that numerical data. You're silly for even thinking that pointing just to a parse or spreadsheet that you're proving a point. Sometimes that may work, albeit not in this case.

11/03/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Kolas
Additionally I would point out that since you're playing a Monk you have a vested interest in seeing them stay ahead of everyone else. How's anyone supposed to take you seriously?


You are assuming the wrong thing about the wrong person. Try again.

By your logic you're a Disc Priest who's butthurt because you didn't get the buffs you wanted. CwutIdidthur.

11/03/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Kolas
So yeah, you can tell me how that shoe fits, since you're so eager for others to wear it.


Since you asked:

I think your problem is that you are giving feedback so definitively about content you haven't even done yet, or much less completed. Lets say that you were looking at things from a completely objective standpoint with theory as part of your discussion: I'm cool with that. But your parade or insertwhateveritishere is silly.

You bash on people who are giving you perspective from design and objectivity and then turn around and try to counter it with outlandish comments and assumptions.

My role here on these forums and towards Blizzard has only been for Balance - which is why I'm not tearing up from the tuning that they have on the PTR. Hurr.
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Edited by Staccato on 11/3/2012 8:18 AM PDT
Realistically, raidbots is showing that monks are only dominating in 25 mans, in 10 mans they are at the top mostly, but not by a crazy margin that warrants this level of nerfing.

Raidbots is far superior to WoL rankings because it looks at ALL public logs, not just showing the top logs from the (arguably) top guilds.

What people who don't play a monk don't realize is just how crazily mastery scales as you add more bodies to a fight. In 5 mans, I'm probably the only one who intentionally grabs my healing orbs, and the floor is often littered with them at the end of a boss fight, even though I'm forging out of mastery for crit. In a dungeon run, mastery makes up, maybe 2% of my healing if I'm lucky.

When I run LFR, mastery makes up closer to (and sometimes in excess of) 10% of my healing, and I don't think anyone is really trying to pick them up intentionally.

SCK probably needs to have a lower chance to spawn orbs, or have mastery re-worked completely so that (like all other healing classes) it is not dependent on other players to be effective. If you remove this extra RNG element (that of someone else having the awareness to grab it when they need it), it would be much easier to balance it across all raid sizes.
I did not read through all of this, but monks are getting some nerfs, unfortunately.

- All healing spells which cost mana have had their mana cost increased by 10%.
-The healing provided by Chi Burst and Chi Wave has been reduced by 25%.
-Renewing Mist now travels to 2 additional targets (was 3 targets).
-The healing provided when detonating Zen Sphere has been reduced by 25%.
Their single-target healing has been buffed though... soothing mists is still cheaper on the PTR than it is on live, AND it has a better chance to generate chi.
100 Tauren Shaman
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17675
I'd like to say using raidbots or WoL at this point in time is foolish for the mere fact they have yet to add HP thresholds and it's full of 20 second-1 minute pulls to bloat HPS. So it'd be nice if people stopped using them as any data reference.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
11/03/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Kolas
The only thing we agree on is that you're foolish for arguing with me.


If I can pull raid representation from a sampled data set and immediately use it to draw conclusions about class balance, Monk raid representation should be directly proportional to their power relative to the other classes.

But by golly, it isn't!

Do you think, maybe, that we need something else? I think we need something else. What do you think?

11/03/2012 12:47 AMPosted by Kolas
You may pretend you can insult the issue away all you want, you still haven't demonstrated how it isn't possible.


Sorry, but you'll have to elaborate a bit more. What issue am I insulting, and what am I demonstrating isn't possible?

Pretend I'm too dumb to understand your argument, I dare you.
1 Tauren Paladin
0
11/03/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Comicbookguy
Their single-target healing has been buffed though... soothing mists is still cheaper on the PTR than it is on live, AND it has a better chance to generate chi.


This doesn't really affect single target throughput though, it just gives monks something close to the mana-neutral type healing ability the other specs have by spamming their base heal.

The increased chi generation chance equates to about one enveloping every 36 seconds of channelling which may well not offset the 10% higher cost of surging+renewing in terms of overall hpm on a single target depending on the level of healing needed. Basically it will buff (slightly) burst ability in low damage scenarios while the overall result is a flat-out nerf to single target healing in any significant damage scenario. If the tank is getting hammered it's a nerf, if the damage is generally healable with soothing it's a slight buff. The issue, of course, being that buffing healing when it isn't needed is pretty pointless.
8 Dwarf Priest
0
Wrong. See, the thing about the data that you see from WoL is that they don't give you the full scope of everything happening in a raid. WoL does not tell you player skill, strat, or concept behind a comp. What you see are numbers and your interpretation of them. Monk numbers are high in WoL. Blizzard on the PTR have tuned them accordingly. That doesn't make other classes broken or weak.

Your personal anecdotal data does miles more than WoL for Blizzard because guess what? They already have that numerical data. You're silly for even thinking that pointing just to a parse or spreadsheet that you're proving a point. Sometimes that may work, albeit not in this case.


Here you are again, essentially saying that people need to be Na zi's, and do what Na zi's have done, in order to understand them. You're saying we can't just look at what they've done and make an analysis. You're saying Blizzard is the only one who can draw valid conclusions from data.

Your continuous attempts to make all of healer balance rely specifically on my perspective is really beyond credibility. Look at the data, and do what anyone with a brain can do, ok? Stop trying to make this about me, and instead try using something everyone can agree on. Numbers.

You don't need all those extra variables to reach rational conclusions. You don't need to know the concept behind a composition. You don't need to know player skill. Why can't you figure this out on your own? Why do I have to explain this to you?

Just look at what healing teams are succeeding, what specs, how often those specs appear relative to other specs. Normal and Heroic raids aren't the easiest of things. Just by seeing who succeeds at them will give you huge clues to the skills of the players, the power of the specs they're using, the viability of their raid composition. You can infer a great deal of the things you claim to need to know in advance just by looking at the data of successful raid groups.

I don't get why you aren't capable of this.

You are assuming the wrong thing about the wrong person. Try again.

By your logic you're a Disc Priest who's butthurt because you didn't get the buffs you wanted. CwutIdidthur.


I've made no assumptions. You're a Monk. How can you even begin to deny this? And how is whether or not I play a Priest of any spec relevant? I'm not even talking about Priests. Isn't this thread about Monks? Isn't it? Can we get someone else here with a little sense to say if this thread is about Monks?

I could get into why you posting as a Monk lends absolutely no credibility, and most likely detracts from any credibility you might have, but I sincerely doubt you are up to it.

I could start by asking you if winning is fun though. Do you like to win? Do you think your time is valuable? Do you like to feel like your use of time is rewarded and not wasted? I'm not sure if you have the capacity to see where I'm going with this, but if you do then surely you see you're doomed. You have absolutely no logical recourse whatsoever to say that anything positive you ever, for the rest of your natural life as a Monk player, say about Monks, is without bias.

Therefore when you immediately leap to the defense of Monk buffs as you did here, how can anyone think you really have the good of the spec at heart? Surely it is only yourself you are thinking of, and you have no legitimate way to prove otherwise.

I think your problem is that you are giving feedback so definitively about content you haven't even done yet, or much less completed. Lets say that you were looking at things from a completely objective standpoint with theory as part of your discussion: I'm cool with that. But your parade or insertwhateveritishere is silly.

You bash on people who are giving you perspective from design and objectivity and then turn around and try to counter it with outlandish comments and assumptions.

My role here on these forums and towards Blizzard has only been for Balance - which is why I'm not tearing up from the tuning that they have on the PTR. Hurr.


This is exactly the response I expected. You have from the start been trying to make this about me, or rather you've been waiting for the opportunity to say just how much better than me you are. So perhaps it is less about me, or rather not just about putting me down, but making sure everyone knows just how smart you are.

Whether or not I ever complete any content has absolutely no bearing, whatsoever, now or at any point in time, on the state of balance between one healing spec and another. What is so hard to understand about that? How you can even dare to begin attempting to say I am personally relevant to the state of healer balance is beyond all logic and credibility!! Do you think you appear sane for doing so?

Apparently my post exceeds 5000 characters soon
8 Dwarf Priest
0
Lets say that you were looking at things from a completely objective standpoint with theory as part of your discussion: I'm cool with that. But your parade or insertwhateveritishere is silly.

You bash on people who are giving you perspective from design and objectivity and then turn around and try to counter it with outlandish comments and assumptions.

My role here on these forums and towards Blizzard has only been for Balance - which is why I'm not tearing up from the tuning that they have on the PTR. Hurr.


So to continue my earlier point that I was not able to finish, I think you just need to focus on the numbers. I haven't been bashing people but rather the bad logic and arguments they are using. You, as a person, are completely irrelevant to me. It is only what you say, the information itself, being transmitted, that is of any concern.

And your information is without merit, or perhaps insignificant merit, not because of who you are, but because of the content and construction of the information. Rather, its bad information not even for hard to comprehend reasons. Its simply bad on the face of it.

Your primary argument that you ever seem to be making towards me is that you seem to think I can't understand the numbers because you believe I don't have the experience required to understand them.

Your argument is essentially that until I become a Na zi I should just stop saying Na zi's are bad because how would I know? I'm just some observer. How can observers reach rational conclusions? According to you, only participants can reach rational conclusions.

Even if I do participate, it isn't relevant. What is relevant is balance.

We should like to define balance, and if the developers have some idea of balance that has nothing at all do with numbers, i.e. what will eventually be seen on meters that get ranked somewhere, they should go to a MUCH MORE IMPRESSIVE LEVEL OF EFFORT in communicating that idea of balance to your average...

Oh wait, that's right, who plays this game the most? The kind of customers they want to keep, and the numbers of those customers, probably aren't the kind of people who would understand esoteric arguments about abstract things that are just "wow so much cooler than those numbers on the meter man. Just, like, stop caring about those meters and come worship these other way cooler concepts of balance. Its cool cuz our text is blue or green, that means we're super smart about things like, what's cooler than something else. You can trust us."

Or isn't that what they are always saying? That the average player doesn't care, or doesn't have much time, or doesn't post, or doesn't raid at the high level, or isn't really all that interesting at all. Blues keep saying stuff like that.

And if you really want to represent an objective perspective about balance, stop playing a Monk. Otherwise you're just another guy with an opinion about your class, no matter what the color of your text is. If you're trying to say you've been giving me objective opinions about balance and design, that's so sad it makes me want to laugh hysterically in a bid to stave off the feeling of utter hopelessness that comes with realizing maybe you honestly believe that.
8 Dwarf Priest
0
11/03/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Anarri
If I can pull raid representation from a sampled data set and immediately use it to draw conclusions about class balance, Monk raid representation should be directly proportional to their power relative to the other classes.


Ahh, well normally I'd agree with you but Monks are a new class and as Blizz is always saying, most people in this game don't play so often that they could be visible in the earliest rankings. We're still only about 2 or 3 months into the expansion.

Not that I think this personal data is necessary but to put it in terms you might understand, I play this game every night for 4 or 5 hours. That's as much as 35 hours per week, which is honestly pretty ridiculous, and I've barely managed to level one character from 85 to 90 in that time. Well I hit 90 awhile ago but between getting gear, attending LFR or raids, hanging out with friends, trying to gather some mats for professions, and other misc activities, there really hasn't been a lot of time left over for leveling a Monk.

So it would be entirely possible at this point in time for Monks to rank higher than other healers while not yet exhibiting the same population levels. But I just want to be clear I in no way think I needed to understand this data with respect to my own personal experience. Rather, just because I personally didn't have time management strategies to level a Monk yet in no way means I would think anyone who doesn't play WoW at all couldn't reach the exact same conclusion as long as they had some data to analyze about people's playing habits, and one data point is irrelevant anyway.

But in like 4-8 months from now, I'll totally agree with that basic premise. Power would largely indicate population presence.

Sorry, but you'll have to elaborate a bit more. What issue am I insulting, and what am I demonstrating isn't possible?

Pretend I'm too dumb to understand your argument, I dare you.


By all appearance one wouldn't think I have to do any pretending.

Several pages ago, you said this. Maybe you forgot:

I'm not surprised that you, who've tried to convince me that any statistic can be used as a metric for success so long as it is pulled from a successful kill, would think I'm over-complicating things.


If you can't see how that is an insult, let me know. I'll be happy to explain it to you.

My basic premise has been that an individual can use the random appearance of one healer spec vs others in the rankings to accurately determine class balance, but more specifically the balance of healer specs in relation to one another.

And you haven't said how that doesn't work. You haven't said how it isn't effective. You've merely argued that more information is necessary, which is far and away, aside from being totally wrong, quite irrelevant to the point I'm making. Saying a whole lot of variables are needed for a valid conclusion is not the same as saying that one variable isn't able to achieve the same conclusion.

I've said only one variable can lead to incredibly accurate results, and you haven't shown how that can't happen in this context.

At this point I'm comfortable with the idea that I will have to point this out to you infinity times before you finally manage to comprehend it.
90 Pandaren Monk
5850
the only thing I can say is that the monk changes seem to be mostly quality of life changes.

and basing changes from "world of logs" would be silly. Blizzard has stated before they have different parsers that show whats going on with classes in raids. and thier probally more correct than anything we have access to ever will be.

if they think monks need a change, or druids; or etc; they'll change it even if a spec is already topping a parser we use.
90 Pandaren Monk
11210
Therefore when you immediately leap to the defense of Monk buffs as you did here, how can anyone think you really have the good of the spec at heart? Surely it is only yourself you are thinking of, and you have no legitimate way to prove otherwise.


Kolas, the fact that you take it as a given that no one can be objective about an issue in which they have a vested interest says more about you than it does about Staccato...

Blizzard has stated before they have different parsers that show whats going on with classes in raids. and thier probally more correct than anything we have access to ever will be.


It's no question that their data sources are at least no worse than ours and have a very high likelihood to be much better.

The question is whether their analysis of that data (and therefore their conclusion) is superior.
Edited by Daerien on 11/8/2012 12:44 PM PST
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96 Pandaren Monk
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11755
11/07/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Kolas
Here you are again, essentially saying that people need to be Na zi's, and do what Na zi's have done, in order to understand them. You're saying we can't just look at what they've done and make an analysis. You're saying Blizzard is the only one who can draw valid conclusions from data.


I knew it wouldn't take long before we Godwin'd this thread.

11/07/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Kolas
Your continuous attempts to make all of healer balance rely specifically on my perspective is really beyond credibility. Look at the data, and do what anyone with a brain can do, ok? Stop trying to make this about me, and instead try using something everyone can agree on. Numbers.


The data that you're using shows a very subjective scope of the actual situation that occurs. Your own personal evidence is much easier to digest/follow up on when it comes to developers because the data that you don't see when it comes to parses, they do.

You're assuming that WoL is a surefire way to asses any situation in World of Warcraft and in all reality it only gives you a numerical value into a situation you don't know enough about. Numbers don't make a game alone. Design does.

11/07/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Kolas
You don't need all those extra variables to reach rational conclusions. You don't need to know the concept behind a composition. You don't need to know player skill. Why can't you figure this out on your own? Why do I have to explain this to you?


LMFAO. Yes, yes you do. That's called context.

I've made no assumptions. You're a Monk. How can you even begin to deny this? And how is whether or not I play a Priest of any spec relevant? I'm not even talking about Priests. Isn't this thread about Monks? Isn't it? Can we get someone else here with a little sense to say if this thread is about Monks?

I could get into why you posting as a Monk lends absolutely no credibility, and most likely detracts from any credibility you might have, but I sincerely doubt you are up to it.


Would it make you feel better if I posted on Paladins throughout this whole thread? Would you shut up about my being a monk then?

Your argument about credibility makes no sense. In no way through this thread have I adamantly defended monks, all I've done is clarify their intent. Conversely, if you look at the discussion I've had with the recent monk nerfs, you'd understand that I'm not against them either.

11/07/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Kolas
Therefore when you immediately leap to the defense of Monk buffs as you did here, how can anyone think you really have the good of the spec at heart? Surely it is only yourself you are thinking of, and you have no legitimate way to prove otherwise.


Anarri
Fleurs
Wassalin
Lebeau
Screw it, even Reta.

Ask any one of them what I've ever done on this forum. They'll let you know the only thing I give a damn about is class balance. I have called for nerfs on Paladins when I played Paladins, asked for Buffs to Druids and Shamans when they needed it and even now I'm not calling for buffs to monks, but merely, explaining the intent behind their design. You fail at recognizing that and I'm not going to repeat it.

You saying "you're a monk you're biased" is like me saying "you're a disc priest, umad."

Get over it.

11/07/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Kolas
This is exactly the response I expected. You have from the start been trying to make this about me, or rather you've been waiting for the opportunity to say just how much better than me you are. So perhaps it is less about me, or rather not just about putting me down, but making sure everyone knows just how smart you are.


You get what you give. You asked me a question, and I answered. I'm not saying I'm better than you (I don't think I'm better than a lot of players), but if you're going to have this discussion you at least should try to experience the problem first before looking at numbers. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't have proper experience to be able to even point to a problem that you don't get.

Does that mean that you can't share your opinions on what you do see? Absolutely friggin' not! Feedback is always welcome, Blizzard will always say that, but I find it really hard to level with someone who doesn't even know half of the fights but find themselves complaining left and right.

You're focusing too hard on numbers and not the overall understanding of design/intent. That's the reason why you're experiencing a disconnect.

11/07/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Kolas
Saying a whole lot of variables are needed for a valid conclusion is not the same as saying that one variable isn't able to achieve the same conclusion.


*raises hands to the air*

I give up. This is where I'm out, Anarri you can chose to respond to this guy but he's purposefully being obtuse at this point.
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Edited by Staccato on 11/8/2012 1:49 PM PST
100 Draenei Paladin
9410
The funny thing about this is he's too chicken to post on his main instead of a level 8 priest.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
11/07/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Kolas
Ahh, well normally I'd agree with you but Monks are a new class and as Blizz is always saying, most people in this game don't play so often that they could be visible in the earliest rankings. We're still only about 2 or 3 months into the expansion.


The caliber of player that is going to reach 25H content within weeks of release is the caliber of player that is not only ready and able to switch mains at the top of a hat, but also the caliber of player who will determine whether they'll have to long before they actually do.

Monks are not new, beta testing is a thing. Any serious raid leader knew long before MoP dropped how many Monks they'd be running with, and any serious raider is more than able to go from level 1 to raid-ready within the span of a week. But we're not even talking about such a short time frame, raiders have had months to level new mains, and I've been citing data within a sample period of a week.

11/07/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Kolas
If you can't see how that is an insult, let me know.


I can see how it was an insult to you, Kolas, but that was the point. I've no idea how it's an insult to the issue, which is exactly what you called it.

11/07/2012 08:59 AMPosted by Kolas
And you haven't said how that doesn't work. You haven't said how it isn't effective.


Actually, I've done just that. You just choose not to believe it because my rebuttal doesn't meet your entirely arbitrary standards, and that's your problem, not mine.

Kolas, I'm done with you. You over complicate things to an absolutely unnecessary level in what looks like a desperate attempt to present the argument in terms so nebulous and elusive that it can neither be proven nor disproven by conventional logic and evidence, and it's very tiring. It doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make anyone else wrong, it just makes you look like a pompous !@#, arguing from atop your ivory tower, and anyone with half a brain stem can see that.

$%^- or *!@# off, Kolas. /flawlesshairflip
Edited by Anarri on 11/8/2012 8:26 PM PST
100 Undead Priest
16505
10/30/2012 03:14 PMPosted by Staccato
Monks in 25 mans are pretty funny to watch, but in 10 mans we're quite balanced.


Does anyone actually think or research things before they speak/write?

Below are links to all monk parses (not just the top 100) @ the 90th percentile range (the top players of the class). Keep in mind at other ranges of output, monks still dominate all other classes in nearly all situations

10H (Monks ~12-24% above all others).
On the six heroic fights, They beat all other classes except Disc Priests on Feng, and completely dominated on Emps). Keep in mind we're only talking about ~100 samples of each class for heroic fights however.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10H/all/14/30/p90/#fo00000

10N (13-16.3% above all others)
On normal fights, monks still dominate other classes, but less obviously. Talking about normal mode performance allows us to talk about 10s of thousands of samples. The breakdown per fight looks a little different here with Disc still being the only class able to beat monks on Feng, and on Spiritbinder/Emps, they fall behind.
http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/10N/all/14/30/avg/#fo00000

TLDR; Monks dominate all other healers when there is more damage and players to heal. Monks make it unfun and much harder for groups without them to do well (IE, Tornado's on Blade Lord (http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Blade_Lord_Ta%27yak/10N/all/14/30/p90/#fo00000)).
MVP - World of Warcraft
96 Pandaren Monk
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11755
You forgot to add /flawlesshairflip after that Anarri.
________________________________________________
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90 Blood Elf Priest
13110
I think Staccato is kind of a jerk, and I have variously wished to hit him with pillows or rocks, depending on the situation.

However, Kolas, I will reiterate here - another class getting a buff does not automatically equate to the class you love being nerfed. There is no single pie that has all the buffs that can be given out, and because monks got a slightly larger piece than normal, that means another class will get a smaller slice. That isn't how it works.

Does Staccato want to have a class that he can play effectively in a raid environment? Of course. Don't we all? Does that make him somehow wrong when he is explaining that the buffs aren't really as big as you think they are? Simply because he plays a Monk?

Don't you think that's kind of silly, Kolas?

He isn't saying anything wrong, Kolas. He really isn't. While I personally have visions of grandeur in which I single-handedly heal all the damn things, that's a personal wish, and not one I ascribe to Monks or Staccato.

There isn't a conspiracy here. Monks aren't conspiring to take your raid spot. Things are simply out of whack, and it may, indeed, take a bit before they shake out. But you have to know, by now, that Blizzard IS, in fact, watching. They've been looking at Priests and adding some hotfixes and changes (not all I agree with, but we don't always get precisely what we want) to make them more viable. Now they're trying to fix some systemic problems with Monks, and there is nothing wrong with that.

The pie is still here, Kolas. Your slice isn't any smaller because Monks got some quality of life fixes. I promise you, the slice of pie is just as big.
85 Night Elf Druid
0
11/08/2012 02:44 PMPosted by Poena
TLDR; Monks dominate all other healers when there is more damage and players to heal.


Well duh. Monk AoE is big and everywhere and all the time and big. There's no discrimination, the AoE goes where ReM goes, and ReM isn't very picky. If you want Monks to be viable at all, you have to accept that they'll be balanced around higher output and higher overhealing than the other healers. I'm not saying they're balanced as they are, but if their maximum output is ever perfectly in line with the other healers then we'll have a problem on our hands.

That's not even considering their somewhat subjective lack of utility.
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