moonkins need a new aoe

90 Troll Druid
8670
So I was doing Wind Lord Mel'jarak the other day and after my initial cooldowns were down I noticed that my dps just plummeted to the ground. Everyone else was a lot higher than me. So I went to world of logs and confirmed that moonkins are one of the worst specs by a pretty decent margin for this fight. This excludes bm and marksmen hunters, one rogue spec and destro locks. The thing is they can all respec to a better spec using the same gear, while we would unrealistically have to keep a completely different agility set for feral.

The thing is we aren't even aoeing, because hurricane is subpar. We are multi dotting and even that is not enough. We don't really have a competent aoe for fights like this. Hurricane and mushrooms keep you from moving your eclipse bar, which is what a moonkin is all about. Losing your nature's grace is bad (procs at the beginning of eclipse and lasts 15 seconds).

My proposal is too make mushrooms useful again (no one uses them except for pre-pull) by making them cost eclipse energy and applying something like a 6 second dot of the eclipse you are in. Maybe both dots, I don't know, something that is balanced and focused around moving your eclipse bar.

Lacking an effective aoe affects challenge mode runs as well, you have dks running through howling blasting, warriors bladestorm and whirlwinding, paladins with their aoe (forgot the name now), Elemental shamans with chain lightning, frost mages with frost bomb and frozen orb, fire mages with combustion spread and frost bomb, hunters with multi shot and serpent spread, etc. The thing that these all have in common is that they fit within their rotation, making it so they can continue their single target rotation afterwards unimpeded. The other thing that these have is that they can be used while mobs are being rounded up or moved.

A moonkin on the other hand is stuck either multi-dotting or using hurricane. Hurricane is better while nature's grace is up, but it doesn't move eclipse so you are dead in the water after that is down. It's not realistic to use astral communion to get to the other eclipse (8 seconds of zero dps) and hurricane is only strong in solar eclipse anyway. It used to be in cata that both shrooms and dots were stronger, so dotting and using shrooms was a very effective way to aoe. The other problem with hurricane is that as I mentioned before vs the other aoe's it's static. You have to rechannel it if mobs are moved and it costs a ton of mana. Lowering the mana cost is not enough though, there still exists the static channel and loss of nature's grace.

I know solar is supposed to be the aoe eclipse but something needs to be done here. On a fight like wind lord mel'jarak we can't aoe and are left to have sub par damage with multi dotting. Shrooms are so weak that like I said they are only used on the pull. Maybe all that is needed is a mushroom damage buff, so that in between multi-dotting it will be a dps increase to use shrooms. Hurricane is badly designed to be our primary aoe for the reasons I specified earlier.

I hope I don't get flamed for this I just feel like this is a big part of a moonkin's tool set that is badly designed atm. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Going feral isn't one of them :P Getting a completely different gear set shouldn't be required IMO.
Edited by Halfatree on 11/2/2012 8:25 PM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
15285
Hurricane could be adjusted to work like destro lock rain of fire, target a location and let it go. That combined with other aoe and dotting would allow for effective AOE on a fight that...at least for competitive heroic progression...will see moonkin benched.

My experience, as in your case, was disappointing for this fight. Not that I have been impressed by moonkin AOE up to this point to start with.
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90 Troll Druid
0
Yeah my dps is pretty competitive for the most part, but I have to agree on this. Our aoe needs some help compared to the niche aoe classes/specs. We used to be one of those specs with very strong aoe in cata. I typically play classes like this because I enjoy optimizing dps in multi-target situations. I dunno why, it's just what more fun for me personally. I wonder why some of the niche aoe specs got to keep their strong aoe but moonkins didn't?

Your mushroom idea sounds cool, maybe they could just add a damage component to the slowing effect on the ground or something like that. Unfortunately I feel like the moonkin community doesn't have a very loud "voice" haha.
Edited by Druttkin on 11/2/2012 8:15 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15810
11/02/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Druttkin
Unfortunately I feel like the moonkin community doesn't have a very loud "voice" haha.


We are beaten down. We have been beat down expansion after expansion. It is hard to hold faith.
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90 Worgen Druid
11265
i hear you. i posted something similar a while ago how eclipse movement is causing our dps to be fairly clunky and very odd at times. either the aoe needs tweaking or the downtime between eclipse needs to be tweaked to allow a more smooth transition.

good post btw op, constructive and detailed.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Starfall is the biggest culprit of our "up and down" AE. Being a very large portion of our DPS, and hitting unwanted targets "because we're not attentive enough" makes for a huge problem.

The upcoming Glyph of Focus is not going to solve the core of the problem. A 20-yard Starfall is still too much in Challenge modes, and we have really no way to "waste" GCDs for multi-dotting where time is of the essence.

A few much needed changes for Moonkins:
1. Glyph of Focus: Starfall now hits targets within 8/10 yards of your currently selected target.

2. Astral Communion should be castable on the move baseline - this gives us a way to get out of the "dead eclipse zone" when moving

3. Glyph of WM: Detonate - Your WM: Detonate will now apply either moonfire or starfire to affected targets, depending on your current state of Eclipse. Increases cast time of WM: Detonate by 1 second (from instant).

4. Hurricane/AS changed to fire and forget like Rain of Fire (Destro Warlock version)

5. REDUCE the damage bonus of CA / Inc / NV to 10-15%. When you cast Wrath/Starfire while unaffected by Eclipse, the cooldown of CA/Inc/NV is reduced by X/Y seconds respectively. This effectively reduces the insane burst that moonkins have right now, and normalizes the DPS by being able to use the CDs more often, just with less bang. (I'm not yet iLvl 476, and I can do upwards of 100k in the first 30 seconds of a fight, and then drop to ~ 50k overall by the end of it)

6. Glyph of the Frenzied Beast (Balance only): Your Owlkin Frenzy now reflects the next attack done to you back to the attacker. Consumes the Frenzy effect.

7. Glyph of Quick Tendrils (Balance only): Reduces the cast time of your Entagling Roots by 1.5 seconds. Entangling Roots now has a 8 second CD.

11/02/2012 08:14 PMPosted by Druttkin
Unfortunately I feel like the moonkin community doesn't have a very loud "voice" haha.

We did have a very strong voice in MoP Beta. Up until LK/Cata - we had a fairly strong community of Moonkins who gave very good views and ideas on how the Balance tree should have been tuned. I can count on ONE hand the number of Balance druid developer chats / communication that have been received by blizzard in 3+ years. Yes, 3+ years. That caused most of the good moonkins to drop their spec or leave the game altogether.

Edit: was typing before thinking in my head - mixed up 2 ability names.
Edited by Owlcapwn on 11/2/2012 9:46 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
On Topic:

Even in PVE gear, when not in eclipse (50% of the time under perfect rotation), my 2.5 second casted Starfire hits for 40-45k at iLvl 474. In PVP gear, it hits for FAR less for a 2.5 second casted spell. To be fair and honest, Starsurge while under eclipse hits very very hard - if it crits, even more so. But then that's leaving us to the mercy of RNG.

In a very simple logic, as to why balance druid will never be competitive to other casters in PVP:
1. Requires the largest number of casted spells (Wrath / Starfire)
2. Our Casted spells hit for lowest averages DPET amonst all casters
3. We have no GTFO the moonkin ability (Iceblock, Dispersion, Thunderstorm, Demonic circle/portal). As to people who say "moonkins can kite endlessly" - try kiting a warrior or a DK as a moonkin and tell me your success rate.
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90 Troll Druid
8670
First, and I hope I don't sound rude saying it, but I would prefer to leave pvp suggestions to another thread. Personally I like our burst as is for now, my comment is mostly about our aoe. If that is fixed, tackling our cooldown reliance may be next, but I don't know that I really want that changed. I'd love to talk about pvp as I have some concerns there too, but I don't wanna cover too many topics at once : /

Owlcapwn: I like your suggestion for starfall, hitting targets within 8-10 yards of whoever you are targetting. I think your version of Glyph of WM: Detonate is too strong. Putting full length dots is going to make it very powerful. I came up with 6 seconds so that we would have to recast shrooms to put them back up but also not have full uptime on dots doing that. I'm also afraid if we get that, an instant hurricana ala destro lock rain of fire would be too powerful as well. If hurricane was made instant cast, then that shroom change wouldn't be necessary but shrooms would probably be used more as they would just be additional aoe, then dot targets a bit and put out another hurricane. Still it strikes me as being a bit too strong and still doesn't address trying to cycle eclipse if that is even necessary (thoughts on needing to cycle eclipse? moving astral communion baseline might be a nice change as you mentioned if we didn't have another way of cycling when aoeing). I'm going to avoid your pvp glyph ideas even though I'm very tempted to answer them, but I'll just say they are interesting.

Also, I used to be a mage, I'm loud xD Hopefully we can come together and rekindle some of that moonkin pride :P
Edited by Halfatree on 11/2/2012 11:00 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
15215
Owlcapwn: I like your suggestion for starfall, hitting targets within 8-10 yards of whoever you are targetting. I think your version of Glyph of WM: Detonate is too strong. Putting full length dots is going to make it very powerful. I came up with 6 seconds so that we would have to recast shrooms to put them back up but also not have full uptime on dots doing that.

I'm also afraid if we get that, an instant hurricana ala destro lock rain of fire would be too powerful as well. If hurricane was made instant cast, then that shroom change wouldn't be necessary but shrooms would probably be used more as they would just be additional aoe, then dot targets a bit and put out another hurricane. Still it strikes me as being a bit too strong and still doesn't address trying to cycle eclipse if that is even necessary (thoughts on needing to cycle eclipse? moving astral communion baseline might be a nice change as you mentioned if we didn't have another way of cycling when aoeing). I'm going to avoid your pvp glyph ideas even though I'm very tempted to answer them, but I'll just say they are interesting.


My suggestions aren't meant to be all implemented at once. And I read over my post again, I did leave that vague for interpretation. The ideas are simply that: ideas. One or more can be implemented to make for a less clunky and certainly a less liable AoE for moonkins.

But that's what communication is for - like I said in this thread or another - I can count on my single hand the number of (direct) Balance druid related posts that blues have made in the last 3+ years.

The WM: Detonate -> dots can be full length, but made to do only X% of original dmg (25-50% range). I prefer longer dots rather than powerful ones so that they scale better with crit -> giving us more starsurge procs -> getting out of non-eclipse cycles faster.

Of course I'm not even imagining that we'll get all of those - heck, I doubt we'll even get this looked over, or the moonkin AE problem acknowledged. The devs commented as far as saying 'we want you to be more attentive when using Starfall' - is such a #$@$ of an excuse when it makes up for such a significant portion of our total DPS (AE and single target).

Another thing I'd like to point out that I personally don't like where our burst is atm - but that's more of a matter of opinion. Your gear is good enough that your non-burst damage is high enough to sustain over a long fight. For when we're starting out, our deviation in DPS is far too high.

In addition, having to manage smaller CDs makes the rotation more interactive. It allows for more skill to be brought into the rotation rather than 3 min CDs. With those, you pretty much know exactly which spot in an encounter you want to use them in.

Also, I used to be a mage, I'm loud xD Hopefully we can come together and rekindle some of that moonkin pride :P


It's a far fetched idea. Of the old timers, I'm not sure if Murmurs is playing still - he probably is. Liss still plays, Hrothegar went off. Wisp is long gone. Calculated / Stormvogul and a few other really good ones are off these forums at least when we stopped getting feedback.

I had to get myself personally banned from forums for 1 month before the devs gave us a 3-line answer. This was about 2 years ago. Since then, there's been about 4 blue posts regarding various balance druid concerns.

p.s. Paragraphs > Paragraph ;)
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
I don't even consider Starfall an AoE seeing as only 20 stars fall... When there are 20 enemies inside Rain of Fire or Blizzard chunks or Hellfire even they all get hit. Multiple times

Boomkins have to Micro manage their AoEs too much IMO.. Hurricane is channeled annoyingly... Yes they should have it like rain of Fire.. But only boomkins.. I think mages should be forced to Channel Blizzard cuz Blizzard Actually effects Frost Mage and is able to proc something While Boomkins AoE oddly enough has NO interaction witht he boomkin at all.

I mean Rain of Fire >> Makes Embers
Blizzard >> Procs FoF
Arcane Explosion >> Makes Charges
Blood Boil >> More Damage with Diseases, and can even spread em with a talent... + u know Death and Decay just sitting there too with the same Movement speed reduction Opition and No Channel.
Shrooms>> Nothing.... u gotta manually explode them and all they add is a movement speed reduction.
Storms/Hurricane >> Blah? Just get a damage bonus, that really doesn't even matter much cause they still aint ever gonna be used.

I think (keeping it a channel) Storms Should Automatically apply the Arcane DoT (forgot name) and Shrooms Should Apply the Nature DoT. (Inb4 someone screams how OP that would be in pvp) I don't think it would really.

Starfall used to have splash damage but it was removed cause Starfalls Damage is basically unavoidable and the spalsh damage would knock Rogues out of Stealth and make them Q_Q hard. plus if ppl stood close together they prolly take double dmg.

I also like that idea about being able to move while channeling storms... least that would make Druids unique in some sorts XD
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/3/2012 3:32 AM PDT
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90 Troll Druid
7740
i hear you. i posted something similar a while ago how eclipse movement is causing our dps to be fairly clunky and very odd at times. either the aoe needs tweaking or the downtime between eclipse needs to be tweaked to allow a more smooth transition.

good post btw op, constructive and detailed.


This has been my problem so far. Moonkin just feels clunky compared to other ranged dps, and seems more clunky for less output.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15810
11/03/2012 04:15 AMPosted by Swaganomics
This has been my problem so far. Moonkin just feels clunky compared to other ranged dps, and seems more clunky for less output.


I am not sure if you have tried other classes/specs but it seems to me that almost all of them are clunky now. Developers seem to have this fond feeling for Guitar Hero because most of them are not fun anymore. Just start smashing keys all over the place. Whack-A-Mole also comes to mind.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15810
Do not worry fellow Balance Druids. Ghostcrawler and his team have us set to be balanced when we reach Heroic T16 content and gearing. Have faith.
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90 Worgen Druid
9355
[quote]
It's a far fetched idea. Of the old timers, I'm not sure if Murmurs is playing still - he probably is. Liss still plays, Hrothegar went off. Wisp is long gone. Calculated / Stormvogul and a few other really good ones are off these forums at least when we stopped getting feedback.

I had to get myself personally banned from forums for 1 month before the devs gave us a 3-line answer. This was about 2 years ago. Since then, there's been about 4 blue posts regarding various balance druid concerns.

p.s. Paragraphs > Paragraph ;)


Looks like Murmurs is inactive since Cata. He hasn't written anything for Shifting Perspectives is over 8 months. It really does feel like we are missing a unified "voice" this expac and perhaps that is why we are being overlooked so much? I'm starting to feel the same way about Balance. I've been playing my druid since tier 7 and have dealt with all the ups and downs to current.

For whatever reason it is starting to feel like we are being ingored or overlooked. I keep hearing the gear arguement and I want to believe it but the drops has been few and far between that I can't make any sort of personal judgement. The entire spec feels absolutely clunky right now and buffs would be nice. It's starting to shock me that Blizzard can get it wrong for so long and be okay with that. I'm almost debating main switching at this point. A little help from Blizz would go a long way right now or you just may see balance even less represented.

/rant off.
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100 Night Elf Druid
10890
[quote]
It's a far fetched idea. Of the old timers, I'm not sure if Murmurs is playing still - he probably is. Liss still plays, Hrothegar went off. Wisp is long gone. Calculated / Stormvogul and a few other really good ones are off these forums at least when we stopped getting feedback.

I had to get myself personally banned from forums for 1 month before the devs gave us a 3-line answer. This was about 2 years ago. Since then, there's been about 4 blue posts regarding various balance druid concerns.

p.s. Paragraphs > Paragraph ;)


Looks like Murmurs is inactive since Cata. He hasn't written anything for Shifting Perspectives is over 8 months. It really does feel like we are missing a unified "voice" this expac and perhaps that is why we are being overlooked so much? I'm starting to feel the same way about Balance. I've been playing my druid since tier 7 and have dealt with all the ups and downs to current.

For whatever reason it is starting to feel like we are being ingored or overlooked. I keep hearing the gear arguement and I want to believe it but the drops has been few and far between that I can't make any sort of personal judgement. The entire spec feels absolutely clunky right now and buffs would be nice. It's starting to shock me that Blizzard can get it wrong for so long and be okay with that. I'm almost debating main switching at this point. A little help from Blizz would go a long way right now or you just may see balance even less represented.

/rant off.


No disrespect to Murmurs and the others mentioned above (I respect them all), but we shouldn't need a spokesperson to make our issues known to the developers. I believe Blizzard when they say that they read our posts, so clearly then know we're frustrated. The logical conclusion then, is that they are content to treat Moonkins as second-class citizens. As for me, I'm still playing actively and I still post occasionally, but I mostly feel like there isn't anything left to say. I haven't decided for sure, but for the first time I'm starting to think seriously about promoting one of my alts to be my new main. If I'm not mistaken, I think Lissanna already did just that, and I think some of the other more well-known Moonkins did also. 5 years is just too damn long to wait for serious attention.
Edited by Ziinaya on 11/3/2012 2:09 PM PDT
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/02/2012 09:38 PMPosted by Owlcapwn
The upcoming Glyph of Focus is not going to solve the core of the problem. A 20-yard Starfall is still too much in Challenge modes,


It's really not.

There are relatively few places where 20 yards is going to pull tons of extra crap unless you're literally stacked in melee range for trash (hint: You don't want to do that. As a rogue who's gotten server first gold, oh god the aoes / cleaves). In addition to that, doesn't Starfall no longer hit targets you / your party are not in combat with?
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
11/03/2012 02:22 PMPosted by Howlyberry
doesn't Starfall no longer hit targets you / your party are not in combat with?


It never did since... a long time ago; Starfall only hits things that you are fighting. So i don't see how Starfall is Pulling things Unless everything in challenge mode is automatically in combat with you.

I Hope you ppl do realize that 20 yard radius is a humungous-ly small radius btw.. I know Cause my curses work in that radius and I have to be standing nearly on top of anything to hit other things pretty far away.. Assuming ur a boomkin I doubt you will be close enough to the main fight to be close to adds to clip then with starfall (If that is even possible)
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/3/2012 3:42 PM PDT
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/03/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Nagomalda
It never did since... a long time ago; Starfall only hits things that you are fighting. So i don't see how Starfall is Pulling things Unless everything in challenge mode is automatically in combat with you.


Okay, I just wanted to make sure. I figured that remark about it being "bad" in challenges due to a large range was out of line... But I had to get verification.
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90 Draenei Shaman
17255
I thought Starfall wasn't breaking the CC speared adds?
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