A R1 Rogue's View on the State of Rogues

90 Human Rogue
14065
[PVP] ((TLDR AT BOTTOM I SAVE YOU))

It's a well-known (or at least, commonly accepted and Blizzard recognized) fact that the current state of rogues is, at the very least, sub-par and in need of slight tweaks. I'd like to attempt to address and bring to light my current opinions in the hope to enlighten others or at the very least, draw some more attention to the matter.

To speak of my credentials and why I feel my opinion may be valued, I have been playing Rogue as my main class since Season 3. I've attained Gladiator several times, and Rank 1 once. To speak of my experience in relation to other classes, I've also played every other class -and- spec aside from healers, hunters, and enhance shaman to a high level (2400+). I've played several other classes to Gladiator rank as well. I also currently and have always raid with a top US 25 man guild, broadening my horizons and perspective of the game.

So, it is quite obvious that Blizzard's design intentions generally are made with the acceptance that Class A can not be compared directly to Class B. This is done because if balancing were compared as such, every class would be exactly the same, aside from the names of abilities. There would be no uniqueness or individuality among the classes and specs. However, at the current state of PvP in general, I feel it is a very valid and essential point to compare Rogues to a different melee in order to get a secondary balance perspective.

While Blizzard has said things such as "Rogue damage is where they want it", they have also said things such as other classes damage being fine as well.

Individual class PvP balance usually comes down to a few categories; Damage (sustained), Damage (burst / cooldowns), Survivability (passive), Survivability (cooldowns), and Mobility, and Control.
I'm going to address each of these individually in a comparison.

Sustained damage
Currently, rogues' sustained damage (outside of cooldowns) is one of, if not the lowest, of all DPS classes in arena. The ramp-up time is very 'low reward' for how extremely tedious it is to maintain.
Our combo point builders for each spec, compared to 'filler 'spells for other classes, are extremely low-hitting. While they are spammable without a cooldown, Rogues' are still restricted by energy. Current opinions are usually that feeling 'energy starved' is common, and ramp up time is extremely long for the low amount of output gained.

Warriors sustained damage is one of the highest pressured DPS in game. With Taste for Blood, the possibility (however small it might be) to bring damage to absurd levels is available. Other classes do not have this type of passive steroid that can stack and cause their sustained damage to be higher than other classes -during- cooldowns.

While Blizzard has noted that Haste directly gives energy return and energy-starved feelings will dissipate with stronger gear and more haste, the thought of being able to do somewhat efficient sustained damage only later in the expansion when haste levels are higher is a very brooding outlook.

*From a personal account, after a night of playing (assassination) Rogue / Mage / Resto druid in Arena (for about ~50 games), my highest Envenom of the night was around 36k. This was likely during a Vendetta with an on-use trinket popped. I was reforged for maximum Mastery, and Envenom does not scale with weapon damage. My highest damage contributions were from Deadly poison and white attacks.
While Assassination's damage is considered much weaker than Subtlety, I'd still like to note, that my Resto Druid's top crit of the night was a 50k Wrath.*

Burst damage (cooldowns, etc)
Rogues
1. Shadow blades - 12s, 3 minute cooldown (Combo point regeneration / Shadow damage)
2. Vendetta - 20s, 3 minute cooldown. (+30% damage)
OR
2. Vanish - 3 minute cooldown (Subtlety - Find weakness, Master of Subtlety)
3. Shadow dance - 8s, 1 minute cooldown

Warriors
Recklessness - 12s, 5 minute cooldown (+50% crit chance)
Skull banner - 10s, 3 minute cooldown (+20% crit damage. Can be utilized by party)
Avatar - 20s, 3 minute cooldown. (+20% damage, removes all snares)
Deadly Calm - 1 minute cooldown

The biggest difference in the cooldowns of Rogues vs Warriors is the ability to change targets. Vendetta and Find weakness are both target-specific and can be removed with immunities. Outside of that, the amount of cooldowns available is 2 for Assassination Rogues, and 3 for Subtlety Rogues. Of those, Find weakness and Vendetta can both be removed.
Warriors have 4 cooldowns available. Not only is Skull banner shared between party members within a respectable range, but their ability to change targets and still make use of the cooldown in the case of immunities exists. This generally makes Rogue cooldowns easier to shut down and handle, while having less available overall.

The possibility for 'cooldown' stacking is also very strong for Warriors, who can pop multiple or all cooldowns to do massively increased damage for the duration, whereas Rogues' cooldown stacking generally involves Shadow blades + one other. Vanish and Shadow dance grant only a small 10% damage increase when stacking both a 3 minute and 1 minute cooldown. Vendetta and Shadow blades stacking have some small synergy together.

Warriors can pock Skull banner, Recklessness, and Avatar for a combined total of 50% crit chance, 20% critical strike damage, and 20% flat damage, without losing any of the cooldown viability by swapping targets.

Mobility
This is one of the biggest concerns for rogues right now. I'll lay it out plain and simple - the majority of the competitive PvP player base feels that Shadowstep is essential to Rogues in the current state of the game. Some might call it 'opinion'.

http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?c=4&r=&w=&a=23&n=&e=pvp

This shows out of the top 20 specs, Shadowstep is used with all 20. I'm not sure at what point Developers will finally start to agree with the community and player base on the matter. Hopefully it is before 0 Rogues take Preparation -or- Burst of speed in PvP, instead of less than 1%.

Rogues' mobility currently -revolves- around Shadowstep, and it for some reason, is a talent. It is a 25 yard ranged ability that can be cast on any targetable in game (hostile or friendly). It has a very short speed increase, and a 24 second cooldown.

Vanish, a 3 minute cooldown, can also be used to break snares if not incapacitated, stunned, or other loss of control of character.

Warriors have three very strong gap closing / mobility cooldowns.

Heroic Leap has a 45 second cooldown. Unlike Shadowstep, it does not require a target (friendly nor hostile), and has a much larger range (up to 40 yards). To top it off, this ability is baseline; it does NOT require a talent. It is a 45 second cooldown.
Charge is another baseline, gap-closing ability. At 20 seconds, it is a shorter cooldown, with the added benefit of stunning the target for a short time. It also has talents to enhance its viability, allowing -two- separate and independent cooldowns, OR a 12 second cooldown overall. Warbringer is generally not as popular, but provides a knockdown / 3 second stun effect on charge. The base charge, a BASELINE ability, is equal to or better than the -talented- Shadowstep that Rogues' have available to them. And with an entire tier dedicated to enhancing and strengthening it, this ability alone trumps all rogue mobility together.

Lastly, Intervene is a 20 second cooldown. It is equivalent to the ability to Rogues' ability to Shadowstep friendly targets. However unlike rogues, it is not the same ability required to close distance to targets. It shares a separate cooldown from both Charge and Heroic leap, has a longer range, and of course, a shorter cooldown.

The question that has come and gone a thousand times from every rogue's mouth this season; why is Shadowstep still not baseline? Do Developers really feel that it is not essential, or is it borderline stubbornness at this point? ** This is a real question I hope is addressed directly.**

Control
Rogues' generally have gravitated back towards being a control class. However, it no longer feels as if we have superior, or even adequate control compared to the toolkit that warriors bring to the table.

Crippling poison is a 50% snare applied by passively or through shiv. It generally requires being in melee range. It is baseline.
Warriors baseline snare is Hamstring. While costing 10 rage, it is now a snare equal in efficiency of both % movement speed and duration to Crippling poison.

The most popular 3rd tier talent for warriors is Piercing Howl. Not only is is a snare equal in power to both Crippling poison and Hamstring, but it is spammable, and -it is AOE-.

With the advent of Mists of Pandaria, Rogues ability to /throw their weapon and apply poisons was removed.

Rogues premier stun is Kidney shot. Lasting 6 seconds at 5 combo points, this is the main source of rogue control in competitive PvP. Doing so, however, requires the use of combo points. Combo points that, unfortunately, are drastically needed to put out any form of respectable damage. It also uses 25 Energy. Coupled with energy-starvation and lack of damage from combo point-abilities, making finishers more important for damage output, Kidney shot is the prime example of a "damage, or control" choice and use of resources.

Fortunately for warriors, the most popular fourth tier talent choice is Shockwave.
It lasts 4 seconds regardless of anything aside from diminishing returns. Shockwave also deals damage equal to 75% of current attack power (and an additional 20% more if you're Arms!), and not requiring Rage or any other resource other than a GCD. It requires no preparation (usable to max efficiency after swapping targets) such as combo points, and has a 20 yard range instead of requiring melee range. Oh, and, it is AOE.

Kidney shot : 2 seconds longer. Costs energy, and combo points. Sacrifices resources. Single target. Melee range. Does 0 damage.
Shockwave : 4 seconds flat. Zero cost. MULTI-TARGET. Deals damage. Has a 20 yard radius. Does not require ramp-up or preparation for full effect.

Rogues' Blind ability was increased to a 3 minute cooldown. While it remains a potent force in both a defensive and offensive crowd control ability that cannot be dispelled, warriors now also have a much shorter cooldown on their Intimidating shout, that likewise cannot be dispelled. While IS can be removed via Tremor totem, Blind can also be removed via Blessing of Protection (or sacrifice, or shadow word : death with glyph), and the fact remains that Intimidating shout is, once again, Area of effect, vs. Rogues' single target Blind.

Last but not least; Defense
Rogues pure passive armor is one of the lowest in game. In fact, even most casters take less damage from physical attacks due to talents or personal damage reduction (Inner fire, Shadow form, Soul link, etc) than Rogues do. Warriors, having plate, have massively higher armor.

Rogues' baseline cooldowns are Cloak of Shadows, and Evasion.

Evasion was nerfed to a 3 minute cooldown with Mists of Pandaria, and now provides only a 50% dodge chance.
In MOP, Warriors were given a new ability "Die by the Sword". Not only is it a 60 second shorter cooldown at 2 minutes, but this ability grants 100% parry chance, compared to 50% dodge. There's also a 20% overall damage reduction for the duration of this effect, making it useful vs DoTs and Casters as well. An amazing and well-rounded ability, given baseline to warriors with MOP.

Cloak of Shadows was increased to a 2 minute cooldown. This remains our 'unique' defensive cooldown, but was increased an additional 30 seconds with MOP launch, giving it a huge downtime.

Warriors defensive activation is Spell reflect. While it doesn't remove hostile spell effects, it is on a 25 second cooldown and can be used to not only effectively prevent taking damage from an incoming hostile ability, but to reflect it and deal damage back to the attacker. Not as strong as Cloak of Shadows, but with a very broad range of use and shorter cooldown, giving it a lot more uptime and use.

Warrior shield wall , a 5 minute cooldown, reduces -all- damage taken by 40%.
The commonly referred to as "Rogue shield wall", Combat readiness, is no longer baseline. It also is only a 50% reduction when attacked multiple times after application, requiring some ramp-up time for full efficiency and more reactive and intelligent use on its timing.

--
The TLDR
After a couple hours of off and on writing this, I've somewhat lost some steam. If you've read thus far, and I hope some of you have, I applaud you. For those of you who haven't, a shortened version -

*The current state of rogues is considered by many, and most, to be very sub-par for competitive PvP.
*Blizzard has said Warriors are where they like them, yet in almost every aspect and degree severely outclass Rogues, who are still being, for the most part, neglected. The community generally feels that warriors entire package is too strong, but little to no recognition on developer end.
*Why is Shadowstep not baseline?

Things not addressed: Deadly throw no longer baseline (WHY?), Throw not applying poisons (WHY???) Shuriken toss not applying poisons on PTR (WHY?????) jk Piercing howl all over the !@#$ing place.

A link to a previous AJ post I made
http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/232508-rogue-changes-51/page__st__40#entry3795434


http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/
Edited by Solicited on 11/10/2012 8:32 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
13870
FIRST
Edited by Wowadín on 11/9/2012 5:38 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
14265
ok
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
12610
I could not have said it better myself. Ironically, if all of the things that were wrong with the class were fixed, it would also correct most of the PVE issues as well. I don't think there has been a single post that outlines the issues with the class so well before. Good job sir, +1 internets to you.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
10910
This is probably a better example of how warriors are retardedly overpowered. Comparing us to warriors, a class known to be faceroll overpowered and completely skillless, was probably not the best idea.

That said, if blizzard really thinks warriors are a prime example of what's balanced for PvP, this post is pretty fair.

*From a personal account, after a night of playing (assassination) Rogue / Mage / Resto druid in Arena (for about ~50 games), my highest Envenom of the night was around 36k. This was likely during a Vendetta with an on-use trinket popped. I was reforged for maximum Mastery, and Envenom does not scale with weapon damage. My highest damage contributions were from Deadly poison and white attacks.
While Assassination's damage is considered much weaker than Subtlety, I'd still like to note, that my Resto Druid's top crit of the night was a 50k Wrath.*

Keep in mind that assassination deals a ton of small numbers, rather than a couple big numbers. Dispatch is the outlier, though.

http://www.guildox.com/go/g.asp?c=4&r=&w=&a=23&n=&e=pvp

Take it with a grain of salt, as this is only the most popular specs, granted, this is also showing what the most successful specs are, so I wonder.

11/09/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Solicited
The question that has come and gone a thousand times from every rogue's mouth this season; why is Shadowstep still not baseline? Do Developers really feel that it is not essential, or is it borderline stubbornness at this point? ** This is a real question I hope is addressed directly.**

It would be easier to make prep baseline, and make another mobility talent. Then bring the talents in line with one another. The choice for mobility OR utility is a bad one, and prep is what needs to go.

Overall good post.
Edited by Nanaya on 11/9/2012 5:55 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
14065

It would be easier to make prep baseline, and make another mobility talent. Then bring the talents in line with one another. The choice for mobility OR utility is a bad one, and prep is what needs to go.


Preparation, however powerful and fun of a cooldown it may be, is not as essential as Shadowstep is. Baseline abilities are those that are completely essential (or should be). Making another mobility talent would probably end up the same way Burst of speed is; lackluster, unused, and a waste of development time.
Reply Quote
Shockwave is just hilarious, not sure how a 20 sec aoe stun, 0 cost, is ok for them. I would say it's better than deep freeze, aoe and a 10 sec lower cd.

Deep Freeze 30 sec cd
Stuns the target for 5 sec. (single, requires frozen target)

Shockwave
20 sec cooldown
4 sec duration (Aoe)

How to balance mages? Make a class more broken than them.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
10910
11/09/2012 06:09 AMPosted by Solicited
Preparation, however powerful and fun of a cooldown it may be, is not as essential as Shadowstep is. Baseline abilities are those that are completely essential (or should be). Making another mobility talent would probably end up the same way Burst of speed is; lackluster, unused, and a waste of development time.


Your definition and my definition of fun differ. I really don't find anything amusing about hitting that button.

If they're gonna make shadowstep baseline, they should just scrap the tier entirely, because keeping prep there will make it mandatory even if all it did was reset vanish. This is why I said to make another mobility talent and then bring the talents in line with eachother. Then it's an actual, completely beneficial choice - "how do I want to move around better?" rather than "Do I want to sacrifice movement for utility or utility for movement?"
Edited by Nanaya on 11/9/2012 6:18 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
14065
Please not the intention of this post was to bring some light to Rogues, not to reiterate for the millionth time (though it is what happened) of how broken warriors are right now. I used warriors as a comparison because of how directly relevant many of the abilities are, and seeing as how both classes now perform the same role in PvP.
Reply Quote
I know but if warriors are the model that rogues dev should follow, they just have to look at those facts.

Also Recuperate vs Second Wind...
.............................
...................
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8265
11/09/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Solicited
Shuriken toss not applying poisons on PTR


Wait....what?

You sure this is not a bug...cause....wow
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
10910
Shuriken toss not applying poisons on PTR


Wait....what?

You sure this is not a bug...cause....wow

It's not in any patch notes that I can find. I think it's safe to assume it's a bug.
Edited by Nanaya on 11/9/2012 6:29 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Gnome Rogue
8635
Agreed. Good post.
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
10290
Jon you're so cute when you talk about your rogue pvp stuff <3 good read though, too bad I know nothing of rogues current state to state anything, but I trust you know what you're talking about babe.
Edited by Kyyros on 11/9/2012 6:52 AM PST
Reply Quote
90 Human Death Knight
10290
11/09/2012 05:41 AMPosted by Scheep
ok


^^^
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
7460
should post in damage dealing forums so that a developer might actually read this
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
17535
Great post. Thank you. <3
Reply Quote
Very good.
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
5635
on his stream khuna said he was trying to get blizzard to make step baseline, i guess he can pull some strings, hopefully
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
8265
11/09/2012 09:02 AMPosted by Hexaflex
khuna


Who?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]