A R1 Rogue's View on the State of Rogues

90 Human Rogue
14065
If Blizz doesn't acknowledge or respond to anything here, I'll just give up and retire Rogue for a bit. I wouldn't be the first one - even Reckful doesn't play his rogue anymore.

Between this post and my random Arenajunkies post, it's 2800 words of Rogue class balance/issues that I'm hoping warrant at least a small response from Devs.
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Everyone requesting a sticky will go a short way to help this not be ignored
Edited by Zimax on 11/9/2012 2:39 PM PST
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73 Worgen Rogue
6380
Blizz openly stated that they rarely, if ever, read class forums.

If you truly want a blue to read this repost it in damage dealing, and/or arena/battleground forums.
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90 Undead Rogue
12150
These are good points and well made.
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90 Undead Rogue
12405
If Blizz doesn't acknowledge or respond to anything here, I'll just give up and retire Rogue for a bit. I wouldn't be the first one - even Reckful doesn't play his rogue anymore.

Between this post and my random Arenajunkies post, it's 2800 words of Rogue class balance/issues that I'm hoping warrant at least a small response from Devs.


Just pucker up your butthole and wait for Titan, the game that's being made by the only intelligent devs this game has ever had.
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90 Human Rogue
2980
Step 1) Remove Prep from the game, lower cooldowns to compensate
Step 2) Make Shadowstep baseline
Step 3) Make Rogue's tier 3 talents a utility line (BoS for mobility, X for damage, Y for crowd control)

Profit
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Gladiator rogue here. With multiple glad titles among my accounts on rogues

To the "remove prep or remove step from tree" debate.
Honestly prep/step is the reason blizz has screwed us over in CDs lately. A lot of the increased CDs are renewed with Prep so blizz wanted to extend the Cds to account for using them twice in a short period. Even though prep is a talent CHOICE and not baseline

Logically I would rather see Step removed from the tree to allow for improvement upon it through some talents to add some flavor, but as previously stated, if we lose step from the tree we will definently pick prep.

My counter arguement.
Remove both prep and step from the tree. Remove prep from the game and make step baseline. lower CDs to account for the removal of prep from the game (Vanish 1-2 min/cloak 1 min/evasion 1-2 min/and lower step CD to 20 seconds).

After this, add 2 new abilities to the mobility tree to add some flavor to step.
Maybe something along the lines of
A. "Your shadowstep now has two seperate Cds, one for when stepping to friendlies and one for stepping to foes. " (This would still be significantly less mobility than charge/safeguard).
B. "The cooldown on shadowstep is reduced to 14 seconds and increases the damage of your next offensive finisher by 25%"
C. Then some tweaks with BoS to you know... make it even a choice (or u could remove it, that would be just as cool)


Well yes, essentially that is either making Prep baseline by either the skill itself or reduced CD's. The next level is definitely getting Step baseline with another choice of mobility but at the state of our mobility and Blizzard's promise to improve mobility in "conservative ways" that seems like alot too ask for despite how good it sounds.
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90 Human Rogue
14065
Please don't intentionally troll or spam the thread attempting to derail it, your post will be reported. Thanks.

For others, constructive feedback / concern is welcomed, and take the time and advertise / link this thread to your friends!
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90 Night Elf Rogue
13025
Hey bad rogue,
stop complaining about the state of the game please. I'm sorry you can't get carried by pve for a season. Last season rogues were broken as !@#$ and warriors sucked. Get over it and wait till next season.


That's ok, this season, warriors are broken, so you guys can sit out in the sandbox for the next 5 seasons. That's fair, right? Also, you guys lose your tank spec and all 3 specs get bloodthirst, mortal strike, and devastate as their main abilities. Functionally they will be no different but will have minor, ancillary effects which change gameplay in conservative ways.

The rest of your interesting unique abilities will be turned into passives and/or put onto the talent trees for you to pick from. here's a preview:

Tier 4:
Charge
Heroic Leap
Recklessness
Edited by Nanaya on 11/9/2012 3:59 PM PST
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It would be easier to make prep baseline, and make another mobility talent. Then bring the talents in line with one another. The choice for mobility OR utility is a bad one, and prep is what needs to go.


Preparation, however powerful and fun of a cooldown it may be, is not as essential as Shadowstep is. Baseline abilities are those that are completely essential (or should be). Making another mobility talent would probably end up the same way Burst of speed is; lackluster, unused, and a waste of development time.


I must agree with Nanaya here. It makes more sense to replace Prep (baseline it or rebalance CDs ... or both) than it does to baseline Step. Baselining Step leaves you with BoS and Prep in a ill-defined tier and the possibility of imbalanced mobility (BoS AND Step). There are no good options left for the third talent spot.

Replacing Prep leaves tier 4 as well defined. BoS doesn't have to be less valuable than Step, and simply reducing its energy cost isn't the only way to modify it. Step too will need to be buffed, as you pointed out. The third option is the kicker, it's not easy to come up with new talents (though we all seem to have our own opinion on what it should be), but it's a much easier problem than replacing Step.

11/09/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Solicited
Rogues' generally have gravitated back towards being a control class. However, it no longer feels as if we have superior, or even adequate control compared to the toolkit that warriors bring to the table.


I agree, Rogues have gravitated back towards being a control class. That control however has gradually been reduced. I submit to you the patch 4.0.6 notes:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/patch-notes/4-0-6

Notice the wording:
"Blind now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds."
"Crippling Poison now has a PvP duration of 8 seconds."
etc.

Only Smoke Bomb lists an original duration, to 5 seconds from 10 (Prep double-bomb was too powerful, funny how Smoke Bomb is still 5s, but no longer on Prep. Even the glyph doesn't take it to 10).

Everything was normalized down to 8, but nothing normalized up to 8.

Then came MoP and increased CDs.

Rogues have defaulted to being a control class not because Rogue CC is still outstanding, but because there's little else left.

--------
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I'd like to bring up one other issue that you've missed.

While Rogues have seen a decrease in their CC, and a decrease in their ability to counter CC (and healers have seen a CD on dispels), CC throughout the rest of MoP has increased.

Rogues have always been extremely vulnerable. Vanish can clear roots/snares, and Cloak can clear magical CC that doesn't involve loss of character (or immune to magic that does), but both have now seen CD increases.

It's great and all to give the example of Warrior (or any class/spec) mobility and all their gap closers, but it ignores their counter CC, the most significant of which is Berserker Rage, a 6 second Fear/Sap/Incapacitate break AND immunity on a 30 second CD.

That's HUGE.

Rogues are currently suffering not just from a relative dearth of CC (surprise!), but also from increased vulnerability during a time of increased CC game wide. It's no wonder Rogues can't get to or stay on target. Developers will need to address this.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
13025
Madcap, ever get tired of repeating yourself, or are you just that persistent? No offense intended.

Edit:
11/09/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Madcapmcgee
I must agree with Nanaya here.


You make it sound like agreeing with me is bad =O
Edited by Nanaya on 11/9/2012 7:16 PM PST
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11/09/2012 04:17 PMPosted by Nanaya
Madcap, ever get tired of repeating yourself, or are you just that persistent? No offense intended.


Yes, and yes.
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91 Undead Rogue
11285
i played a rogue since bc and love it i just did a bg and got no killing blows not a surprise though im very pissed off at how bad rogues are i cant outdamage my shaman even at like 87 when im 90
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90 Night Elf Rogue
10105
100% Agree
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22 Worgen Priest
50
11/09/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Gyroscope
Uninteresting damage spread" = Unavoidable lack of haste at the beginning of the expansion. We will still see the counter argument of "Combat is so boring because all you do is spam SS all day" near the end of mop.


I'm mainly a pve rogue.

At the moment, I'm pretty sure the largest crit I've seen is a 250k eviscerate as sub on Gara'jal. With the other speccs? I'm lucky to break 120k; actually, I don't think I have.

Now, while that's not terrible, think about other classes.

Come 20%, warriors get to execute for a good million damage on a crit with SMF.

Destro locks get 500-800k chaos bolt crits.

DKs get gigantic obliterate and FS crits.

The list goes on.

Rogues hit like wet noodles. Outside of our finishers, almost all of our combo point builders don't hit much harder than our auto attacks hit (or crit) for, and it's pathetic. Literally all of our damage is designed around auto attacks and the things which proc off of them.

For combat, our offensive finishers (evisc and rupture) are garbage. The only reason to actually use them is, hilariously, so that we can cause our cooldowns to come up faster. Our cooldowns which buff our auto attacks.

Mutilate's finishers are equally bad. Envenom isn't impressive because of the damage, it's impressive because it gives us a short-duration effect which increases the proc rate of our main passive damage source by 15%. Rupture is there so it can proc another effect (-not- the rupture itself, but something which procs off rupture) and allow us to keep our envenom buff up more.

Even sub, the specc which has the largest amount of its damage actually dumped into abilities, is still mostly their to buff auto attacks. Maximizing FW uptime for your autos so that they can penetrate armor, and weaving it with Shadow Blades.

Look, I don't mind passive damage, I really don't. I understand that it's there so that the margin for error is smaller and makes it so that even those not so good at the rotation / priority can still get damage out.

With that said, the way rogues work is stupid. We're basically just there to trafic buffs and debuffs so that our autos can do the work for us. And while many classes have buffs and debuffs to traffic and upkeep in order to maximize their damage, ours are unrewarding in the sense that we don't really get to 'see' the reward. Doing my rotation well isn't rewarded by getting a chaos bolt crit for nearly a million, it's rewarded with 80 extra procs of 10k damage.

More than that, it punishes us stupidly in almost all cases. A specc (or class) which has all of its damage tied into autos and things which come from autos has its damage move in mostly a straight line. Where as everyone else has highs and lows, our damage is mostly static.

This means that we're punished heavily for time not spent on a target for whatever reason, as we need all of that just to compete. Other classes can angle their cooldowns and abilities so that they'll only lose time on the "low" section of their rotation, but we're effectively losing time on our "high" which results in a much larger damage loss.

lastly, it makes us sort of garbage in situations where you need a lot of damage applied over a very short time frame.

Anyway, none of these points were particularly well put together or even that clear, but I imagine just about everyone who pves on their rogue can more or less understand what I mean. And relate to the frustration.
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Also hunter's mobility is being buffed a lot. They will be able to steady and aimed shot while moving.. Like every class will be able to kite us forever, and /dance around.

Not sure you guys, but im going to wait for 5.1, if they keep going whit this ''conservative'' mentality, im going to be conservative whit my money.
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90 Undead Rogue
6485
Well said. I believe rogue's will be back again in a few month's time. It's almost as if they are trying to reduce our numbers on purpose so they can have an excuse to give us an overhaul ...
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90 Human Rogue
11855
More people should request a sticky for this thread..

Lots of good suggestions in here. We've been saying "we'll get fixed in live." ... "we'll get fixed in 5.1" ... "we'll get fixed in 5.2"

11/09/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Solicited
in almost every aspect and degree severely outclass Rogues, who are still being, for the most part, neglected.


Honestly, if there were this kind of backlash on the Mage or Paladin forums, I feel like they'd get hotfixes and an apology. Compare our talents to basically any other class, we're spending talent points to get our old moves back, and when you look at Paladins throwing crazy light hammers, or Mages new frost orbs, or Priests Halo which is aaammmaaazzziiiinnggg or the portals and new demons and tons of stuff Warlocks got... Come on, we need some actual development.

A lot of the increased CDs are renewed with Prep so blizz wanted to extend the Cds to account for using them twice in a short period. Even though prep is a talent CHOICE and not baseline


Exactly. I honestly don't see how any time at all was spent designing that talent tier, you either screw up your mobility or double your cooldowns... Why would they give us talents like that? IMO it was just "okay we threw some moves into the Rogue tree, time to play with Warlocks some more!"

My counter arguement.
Remove both prep and step from the tree. Remove prep from the game and make step baseline. lower CDs to account for the removal of prep from the game (Vanish 1-2 min/cloak 1 min/evasion 1-2 min/and lower step CD to 20 seconds).

This would be a smart fix.

After this, add 2 new abilities to the mobility tree to add some flavor to step.
Maybe something along the lines of
A. "Your shadowstep now has two seperate Cds, one for when stepping to friendlies and one for stepping to foes. " (This would still be significantly less mobility than charge/safeguard).
B. "The cooldown on shadowstep is reduced to 14 seconds and increases the damage of your next offensive finisher by 25%"
C. Then some tweaks with BoS to you know... make it even a choice (or u could remove it, that would be just as cool)


Seriously. I've been seeing people calling it Burst of S#&%. I think the energy cost could be reduced and it could be moved to a different tier, that's just one idea though.

Other tweaks could be:
-Recup and SnD rolled into one buff, seriously aint nobody got time for dat! And recup is a straight up waste of combo points except when there is literally nothing else to use the points on.


This would be great, I miss Quickening and Recup is the epitome of trash heals.
Edited by Carroway on 11/9/2012 7:57 PM PST
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