[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents - 2

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Continuation from http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175

The OPs on Thread 1 will no longer be updated due to the thread being capped.

Edit: Something else I'd like to add from my previous OP is that this is no longer an issue purely on Mobility (and how unfair it is among the classes), but rather the QoL of Mages with their L90 talents. Not only are they not fun nor flashy (like Priests/Paladins/a few other classes), but they horribly restrict us and cause huge QoL issues. No other class has talents that weaken one area just to make their DPS/Healing viable. They just get an ability (such as Warrior's Avatar or Priest's Halo) that make DPS/Healing fun, viable or not. Avatar and Halo sure don't restrict your movement/any other area at all, and neither do the other two choices. They're just fun spells that you get in your arsenal, not your mandatory-to-do-good-healing-or-damage button.

If everyone else was suffering mobility issues, that's fine; the L90 talents would be completely justifiable and I thought everyone else had issues, so I rolled with it.

Hunter
- Aspect of the Fox has been removed.
- Steady Shot, Cobra Shot, and Barrage can now always be cast on the move.


Oh okay... I guess they needed more mob-- *Tires screech* Wait... WHAT?!

I'm sorry, but weren't most of the other Hunter abilities already instant? I wasn't aware they needed 100% mobility...

Warlock
- Kil'jaeden's Cunning no longer increases the cast time of the spell.


... What. Are you serious?

So obviously, there is no mobility limitations now for Hunters nor Warlocks. I also know that Elemental Shamans are quite good on mobility as most of their spells are instant (like us), Lightning Bolt can be glyphed to be mobile, and they don't require to stand still constantly. Shadow Priests aren't in a horrible place either, but they could use a tweak or two. Boomkins are in a meh spot, but they're like casters used to be. So, why are Mages now at rock bottom when it comes to mobility? Why are Hunters and Warlocks now untaxed for movement? (Warlocks lose up to 20% movement speed as a "tax" for this awesome passive. I'd gladly give up 50% of my movement speed for all my spells to be usable while casting)

Invocation requires you to stand still completely for 4.5-6s every 40s (and if interrupted, even more time), Rune of Power is so small and requires constant replacing when the smallest little AoE pool lands on it (as well as no movement at all), and IW requires you to pre-emptively get hit by stuff, in addition to it not being all that powerful and making you unviable DPS compared to the other two. In addition, when you don't break that shield, you'll lose the passive 6%, making your DPS even worse.

The worst part is that these abilities are so super clunky and forced to be used because without them, your DPS plummets (even with IW, your DPS will suffer unless you're in PvP). Not only that, but they're horribly boring to use as well as mess up your rotation (especially for a Procc class)

In addition to all of that, a handful of other classes get fun, bonus, talents rather than ones that simply allow them to do viable DPS.
- Priests get amazingly fun talents, like Cascade and Halo, that I'm really envious about.
- Paladins get Execution Sentence and Light's Hammer that not only look cool, but dish out some nice damage and healing.
- Warriors got (another) nice stun called Storm Bolt that does 400% damage against Stun Immune mobs (reminds me old Deep Freeze...) as well as Avatar, an awesome damage increasing cooldown ability.
- Druid's talents allows you to play another role for 45s (once per fight, unfortunately) with heavily increased stats, or have another damage increasing cooldown.
- Hunters got a handful of interesting AoE abilities that work in a straight line.
- Shamans got a spell that works like Windsong, as well as controllable pets and a nice passive addition to their Unleash Elements spell.
- Warlocks get a 'backlash' talent that increases their DPS output, or (in 5.1) complete mobility on every one of their spells.
- Monks get an improvement to their really fun ability, Roll, that allows them to deal damage and healing with it. They can also summon a tornado to do damage/heals, and summon Xuen, the White Tiger celestial to dish out some nice AoE every 3 minutes.

Mages get... viable DPS... in the most clunky, boring, and movement-taxing way possible. You can't honestly say that these are fun with a straight face, even less if you've tested them in PvE and PvP.

While the talents look fine on sims, on paper, and in numbers, the way we obtain these numbers are just bad, they're not fun. Why bother having a beta if it's not to test things, then change them if they don't work out? (There also were quite a few posts on these issues back during beta, but not a single word from Blizzard was spoken regarding these talents)
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/31/2012 10:26 AM PDT
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Edit: GC, if you're reading this, give the Invocation change a try. After 40s, I'm pretty low on mana as both Fire and Frost. At least TEST it before you make assumptions that we won't invocate as much (personally, I'll be invocating more when I know I'll have a quick break to top off my mana)

Thread 1 Links
My Original Suggestions: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=17#335 (Credit for Invo Alternative to Seedee, Post #134)

Additional Suggestions by Mistwynd (Post #165): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=9#165 (Please note these new talent choices will require a buff to damage across the board because our current L90 talents allow us to be viable, not ahead of the pack) I personally would LOVE Blink improvements, as that would benefit both PvP and PvE (unlike our old Polymorph tier)

Even more Suggestions by Aureus (Post #181): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=10#181

Compilation of issues with L90 talents by Howmanylichs (Post #436): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=22#436

More suggestions by Silvermage (Post #456): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=23#456

Even more suggestions by Howmanylichs (Post #462): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=24#462
Howmanylichs further explains his suggestions (Post #485): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6934954175?page=25#485

Thread 2

Thebigmike breaks down the issues with the L90 talents (Posts #185 and #186): http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004452105?page=10#185

Related Threads
Scrapped Invocation Change Discussion: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004692827
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/17/2012 12:00 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Post reserved for additional links and/or info.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/29/2012 9:32 AM PDT
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64 Worgen Hunter
8455
Wait. Are you advocating for Mage buffs?

I'm pretty sure you're advocating for mage buffs.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Wait. Are you advocating for Mage buffs?

I'm pretty sure you're advocating for mage buffs.


Wait, have you played a Mage at 90?

I'm pretty sure you haven't played a Mage at 90.

This thread is referring to our garbage Level 90 talents, and should do little to no effect on PvP as everyone will still take IW no matter what in that category.

Also, feel free to check out the 25 (+1 post) pages of discussion, suggestions, and compilations of issues.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 10/29/2012 11:01 AM PDT
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90 Undead Mage
11870
Wait. Are you advocating for Mage buffs?

I'm pretty sure you're advocating for mage buffs.


The advocation is for a change to the un-funess (is that really a word?) of the level 90 talents and their impact on mobility. We have 1 talent that requires you to stay in a very small area (just fine on a patchwerk fight), 1 that requires you to complete a ~5 second channel every 40-45 seconds, and 1 that is a shield which seems to encourage mages taking avoidable damage - something not to awesome for progression raiding.

Each of these is a throughput talent designed to keep mages on par with everyone else. It has been estimated by Lhiv, and I concur, that the average gain of these talents is expected to be about 9-11%. Having even 1/10th of your dps tied to something which generally goes against basic raiding philosophies (always stand here, stop doing damage for a while - don't move out of that "bad" - you're almost done channeling, or take extra damage you didn't need to) in order to be competitive seems counter-intuitive to a class that has been traditionally one of the more mobile ranged classes.

Many suggestions were made, a change was proposed on the PTR to one of the talents, then scrapped before any testing could occur. The reasoning for it being scrapped was gleaned from an incredibly mis-informed statement over twitter by Ghostcrawler. Since we have no other communication to go off of, we must assume this is the actual reason, or at least "close enough".

I am chain queing heroics today. I am doing the first chunk with Invocation, later I will be using RoP. So far, after 3 dungeons, I want to punch my screen. I have dealt with chain pulling tanks (therefore falling behind while standing there to channel my evo), boss fights that last just long enough that my buff falls off about 20-30 seconds before the boss dies, and got to experience the joy of channeling Evocation (not for mana, just for the buff) while under the effects of Bloodlust. Nothing says "I want to do amazing DPS like do 0 damage for a while)
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90 Undead Mage
11870
You're like a spoiled brat sitting down to a feast whining, "Waaa!! I don't have gravy on my turkey!"

Meanwhile there's kids sitting down with nothing to eat whatsoever (rogues, monks, ele shamans). I sincerely hope Blizzard takes care of the underpowered classes, before catering to the spoiled brat (You and mages like yourself).


I'm sorry you don't like your rogue in MoP. Being able to see your post history makes your agenda pretty clear. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Also, you seem to have a thing against mages. Would you like to show me on the doll where the bad mage touched you?
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90 Human Mage
5020
You're like a spoiled brat sitting down to a feast whining, "Waaa!! I don't have gravy on my turkey!"

Meanwhile there's kids sitting down with nothing to eat whatsoever (rogues, monks, ele shamans). I sincerely hope Blizzard takes care of the underpowered classes, before catering to the spoiled brat (You and mages like yourself).


Do everyone a favour and leave if you have nothing worthwhile to contribute. We've had 26 pages of good discussion amongst individuals that had genuine suggestions. NO ONE said anything about buffing. If you didn't bother to read previous threads, don't reply.
Edited by Bubblee on 10/29/2012 12:20 PM PDT
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Derpenstein (you are splendidly named, btw) this thread isn't about damage buffs at all. It's about putting the fun back into mage play. Our damage is actually very good, and many mages are miserable anyways. Sometimes it is about the fun, not the dps, and even the best dps won't do it if the gameplay isn't there.
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90 Human Mage
5020
PPB, you should have included words "PvE" in the OP and title thread.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
Wait. Are you advocating for Mage buffs?

I'm pretty sure you're advocating for mage buffs.


Not raw buffs, just QoL changes. Mage damage is pretty much fine. The problem is that two of these three talents are rather obnoxious to utilize and the third is undertuned.
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1 Blood Elf Rogue
0
10/29/2012 12:44 PMPosted by Derpenstein
Even if it were QoL changes that wouldn't boost their dmg, mobility, survivability in any aspect of the game (PvE/PvP) I still shudder at the thought of Blizzard development time being spent on making MAGES better rather than on other classes in dire need of help.

Making classes more fun isn't some zero-sum game. You'd probably be better off making your own threads to discuss the problems you perceive with whatever classes you have a personal in than taunting mages in a mage thread.
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Yeah, going neiner neiner at another class does not in fact do anything to fix the problems of your own class.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11670
10/29/2012 12:49 PMPosted by Aureus
Making classes more fun isn't some zero-sum game. You'd probably be better off making your own threads to discuss the problems you perceive with whatever classes you have a personal in than taunting mages in a mage thread.

Trolling is more fun though. But well, it is against the forum rules to make non-constructive posts, especially ones only meant to inflame.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Everyone please ignore the uneducated (in Mages) troll and lets get back to the discussion.
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64 Worgen Hunter
8455
Making classes more fun isn't some zero-sum game. You'd probably be better off making your own threads to discuss the problems you perceive with whatever classes you have a personal in than taunting mages in a mage thread.

Trolling is more fun though. But well, it is against the forum rules to make non-constructive posts, especially ones only meant to inflame.


Because just because someone angers you, doesn't mean they're trolling.

And since it wasn't my intent to insight anger among Mages, that means I wasn't trolling.
Edited by Derpenstein on 10/29/2012 1:02 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11670
And since it wasn't my sole intent to insight anger among Mages, that means I wasn't trolling.

F'ing logic, how does it work?
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