[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents - 2

MVP
90 Human Mage
10015
11/14/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Water Jet was just removed.


Delayed for a later patch, more likely. They weren't really satisfied with how it was working.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7118303694#7
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60 Undead Rogue
8075


Top aspects (PvE only):

Fire does very high ST damage, as well as 2-3 cleave.
Frost has amazing short-term AoE. Also does good ST damage.

Anything else? No? Oh right, that's because that's all we have.

We have little to no long-term AoE, and as Fire/Arcane, we have crap for AoE. We bring ZERO raid utility outside of food/water/portals (has nothing to do with combat), Time Warp (shamans bring this too), and two VERY common buffs (Spellpower and Crit).

- Shadow Priests bring a raid-wide mana cooldown, raid-wide healing cooldown, off-heals if needed, a mechanic-soaker that doesn't require them to talent out of an awesome talent (Cauterize/G Invis), and a super-rare buff (Spell Haste; only brought by Hybrid spell DPS). In addition, they take less damage than us without the use of a global, making them save healer mana.

- Boomkins bring a single-target mana cooldown, raid-wide healing cooldown, off-heals if needed, Battle rez, gives Tranquility if Symbiosis is given to a Shadow Priest (so a second raid-wide healing cooldown), gets Mass Dispel if Symbiosis is given to a Priest, and a super-rare buff (Spell Haste; only brought by Hybrid spell DPS). In addition, they take less damage than us without the use of a global, making them save healer mana.

- Elemental Shamans bring a raid-wide healing cooldown of their choice (Tier 5 talents), Bloodlust/Heroism (to our Time Warp), and a super-rare buff (Spell Haste; only brought by Hybrid spell DPS). (Okay so Ele doesn't bring much, but they have tons of Mobility at least. They do need some work though).

- Warlocks bring healthstones ("raid-wide" healing), an awesome ability for movement that can completely break some fight mechanics (Demonic Gateway), Battle rez/pre-emptive rez, get lots of self heals (so they require less healing, saving healer mana), and Affliction also has crazy single-target damage too. Not to mention they bring the Spell Vulnerability debuff, which is fairly uncommon compared to our super-common buffs.

On top of this, all the above speccs have better mobility than us; Warlocks and Elemental shamans having crazy higher mobility, while boomkins and Spriests having just better mobility. In addition, they all have a movement speed increase of some sort (Shamans and Druids can shapeshift, Spriests have their T2 talent + Mind Flay glyph, and Warlocks have Burning Rush if they choose it). Furthermore, ALL the above classes have better AoE of some sort (with the exception of being against Frost with it's short term burst)

I don't understand why we have to be so clunky when we already bring zero utility besides damage. Damage isn't the cure-all to every fight, so why are we the only ones being heavily restricted? (Elemental shamans too, but they're a whole nother story)
This is hilarious. What do mages have? Ring of frost? Sheep? Blink (cheeses many mechanics, like amber traps)? Cauterize? Oh and all we have is GOOD SINGLE TARGET AND 3 TARGET CLEAVE? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.

Stop crying because you don't have everything under the sun and realize that mages are in a ridiculously good place right now. Enjoy it while you can, crybaby.


Actually this is true. We are actually in a good place. I just wish that we had QoL changes to the level 90 specs and maintain the same DPS. I'd be happy with that.
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90 Worgen Druid
14435
11/14/2012 10:08 PMPosted by Metuo
Actually this is true. We are actually in a good place. I just wish that we had QoL changes to the level 90 specs and maintain the same DPS. I'd be happy with that.


Comparing yourselves to other classes and playing the victim is not how you go about doing that.
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90 Human Mage
6115
Hey I did a write up of my opinion on L90 talents and got referred here. Hopefully this thread stays on topic and we can discuss our talents.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7004408272

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I'm not here to comment on DPS equality amongst talents. I just want to express my disappointment with our level 90 talents usability, fun factor, practicality, and aesthetics.

Incanter's Ward: This is the one I use the most because I don't have to worry about stepping outside of a circle or evocating every 40 seconds (which I hate doing). I understand this is probably more of a PVP talent than PVE, but here are my issues with it:

- I find myself purposely taking raid damage to get use out of it, especially when damage isn't predictable or when isn't coming in the near future.
- The shield does not last very long and therefore it has to be timed correctly, otherwise see above.
- The graphic is extremely disappointing; It looks like mana shield did which was boring.
- The damage it absorbs isn't much.

Overall, it just seems gimicky and lackluster. I won't try to compare it to other classes' level 90 talents, but this doesn't feel like something I'm happy to get at 90.

Invocation: I can't express enough how much I dislike this talent.

- It isn't a new ability, it just changes an old ability which I'm not very fond of to begin with. I liked using Evocation when mana was low from a long fight or during down time (speeches, immune phases, etc.). I understand that the developers want us to use evocation but having to use it 5-8 times in a short fight and pre-fight is extremely frustrating. And most of all this talent just forces an existing ability into our rotation without adding any cool value to it.
- I love getting into a nice groove with my mage and stopping every 40 seconds to evocate makes the fight feel clunky, especially if you have to stop your channel early.
- It forces you to evocate because of the mana regen penalty. So if you can't evocate or choose not to (I feel our talents/abilities should have choice), your mana suffers.
- This talent feels like something to track instead of something cool. I find myself just looking at the buff bar occasionally waiting for the timer to run out so I can stand still for a few seconds and turn blue again.
- As far as looks, it's just evocation. No new graphic, no cool twist, just blue swirling like always.

Overall, I am extremely disappointed with this talent. It offers nothing new to the class other than a damage buff and has annoying penalties associated with using it (channeling), and not using it (damage/mana suffers).

Rune of Power: This one I have not really used much because the thought of creating a circle under my feet is not appealing to me. I also haven't really had any fights that I find myself standing around for (maybe Sha of Anger?). I like that it's a completely new ability that I can cast. But here is what I don't like:

- It requires you to stand still in a little circle. It makes me feel trapped while I'm playing my mage.
- The reticule to cast is frustrating to use. I guess it's nice to have freedom to cast where you want, but I'd rather it just automatically cast under my feet if anything.
- Fights that require a lot of movement makes this talent less than optimal which means you have to switch to Incanter's Ward (boring) or Invocation (yuck).

Overall, it's more pleasing to the eye and I like that it's actually a new ability with a unique graphic. But I can't help but feeling trapped when using it and I like to have freedom when I'm playing my mage.

I understand that changing our level 90 talents is probably out of the question at this point. This post is just to outline what I find disappointing about our talents. I'd even go as far as to say that just improving the graphics would be welcomed. If I had to offer suggestions, this is what I'd say:

Incanter's Ward: Unique graphic, make the shield last much longer, or just an ability that can be cast that improves our dps/damage without requiring that we are damaged (similar to how avatar temporarily improves the warrior),
Invocation: I might be too biased for suggestions on this because there's nothing about this talent I like. But I'd say improved graphic, doesn't require us to stand still for the entire evocation - even if that means we can channel while moving, longer damage buff (even if it's less %), and doesn't affect mana regen as much as it does.
Rune of Power: I'd rather see this as a talent you cast on yourself (buff) which does exactly what it does now so that we can move with it. Otherwise, at least let the circle auto cast under our feet.
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90 Human Mage
6115
And another note about Invocation: I don't feel that it's appropriate to use a Level 90 talent slot to modify an old ability. Especially when it's just to force that old ability into a rotation using a DPS increase as a way to entice us. DPS is great, but I don't want to feel trapped or forced to use old abilities that I don't enjoy using just for a DPS increase. It feels like a tax to me: You can get more DPS, but at the cost of standing there and channeling an old ability for a while. This does not sound like a level 90 talent I'm happy to use.

Since you also have to use it prefight to start with the buff, it becomes more of a DPS chore instead of a "Once I press this button, it's going to be awesome for a little while" ability. When I press Icy Veins, I feel great for a little while because I'm getting a DPS increase that takes a little planning and set up to maximize, and I'm shooting 3 bolts/lances at a time for a limited duration (glyphed). I have to admit, it feels pretty epic.

Invocation: Guess it's time to turn blue again so I don't run out of mana DUE TO invocation and so I can have bigger numbers.
Edited by Thebigmike on 11/15/2012 7:21 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11950
11/14/2012 10:15 PMPosted by Prunefgt
Comparing yourselves to other classes and playing the victim is not how you go about doing that.


I don't think he is 'playing the victim', just stating a point that many Mages agree with that the lvl 90 talents are very aggravating to use. Mages -are- in a good place overall, I don't think anyone is disagreeing on that, but the quality of life for Mages is, in my opinion, pretty bad because of those talents. Every other class either gained a new spell / cd, or at the very least a passive increase (i.e. primal elementalist) with no drawbacks. To sum it up, Mage lvl 90 talents do not solve quality of life problems, they create them.
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
Remember the time at the start of Cataclysm where warlocks were amazing but they had to deal with improved soulfire? Everyone hated it and the everyone thought it was clunky even the devs and yet somehow they bring it back in the form of invocation. Sigh...they learn and commit the same mistakes ever so often.
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11/14/2012 12:56 PMPosted by Cøld
Woe is me, you have to Evo for 5 seconds before returning to do godly damage.

I find it strange that the primary enjoyment some people get from this game is the numbers that pop up on their DPS meter. I'm not going to say that's "wrong", but it would be nice if those people would realize that others like to have enjoyable gameplay.

If Blizzard implemented a mechanic where you had to hold your breath for most of a fight to do viable DPS, but holding your breath for a LONG time would do better DPS than other classes, these people would be all over it.

And then the people who like to breath while playing a videogame would hear:
"Oh woe is me, I have to stop breathing to do godly damage."
/rolleyes
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90 Blood Elf Mage
11950
I would also like to say that I think -overall- the Mage talents are fairly good. I feel like each choice has a purpose and use in all content. Spells like Ring of Frost are primarily useful in pvp, but do have their uses in PvE content. For that, props to Blizz.

On the other hand, Mages don't really have any spells to choose from via talents that have a wow factor. Everything is pretty much pulled from the old talents except Frost Bomb / Nether, but really those are variations of LB. Tier 6 would be a great opportunity to introduce some iconic mage spells.

Phoenix (active): summons a phoenix to assist the mage, attacks target and radiates flames damaging nearby enemies. (Good sustained damage, can be snared) ~2 min cd

Arcane Orb (active): hurls a ball of arcane energy in a front line that explodes on contact, aoe damage ~20 sec cd

Shock Barrier (active): same as Incanter's Absorb, pvp choice, remove passive, increase spell power gained, but shorter duration ~25 sec cd
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90 Undead Mage
8395
ever seen gundam wing? shooting multiple rockets in rapid succesion... imagine arcane missiles like that.. ahhh awesome.
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
11/15/2012 07:46 AMPosted by Anastrasza
Arcane Orb (active): hurls a ball of arcane energy in a front line that explodes on contact, aoe damage ~20 sec cd


I've seen this in Diablo 3.

I must say that it was my preferred Wizard spell.
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95 Blood Elf Mage
19785
I'm stubborn and disgruntled and although I (used to) consider myself a competitive player, I simply WILL NOT sacrifice my fun to maintain these terrible talents.

Shortly after reaching level 90, I spent hours testing each talent in various situations and couldn't find a personal way to ever have fun with Rune or Invo. IW is sub-optimal but the least obnoxious so I've been using only IW past the first couple weeks of raiding.

Please redesign these talents to feel more enjoyable and useful. As others have said, I feel punished if I ever have to move out of the rune. I feel punished if I'm targeted for a mechanic or otherwise have to move and break my Invo.

How are these talents well-designed at all? I thought the ultimate tier of talents would be designed to make a character feel powerful, accomplished, unique... not have a splitting headache out of frustration.
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90 Human Mage
0
I really wish they'd figure out how to make RoP and invocation better in PvP. IW is just boring, and kind unpleasant to use.

Maybe if they made it so stepping on the Rune gave a buff for 10-15 seconds so you wouldn't have to permanently stand over it to get the effect. I really like the passive healing, but it's hard to implement in PvP.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/14/2012 09:55 PMPosted by Therech
This is hilarious. What do mages have? Ring of frost? Sheep? Blink (cheeses many mechanics, like amber traps)? Cauterize? Oh and all we have is GOOD SINGLE TARGET AND 3 TARGET CLEAVE? THIS IS AN OUTRAGE.


Someone didn't understand that I only speak in a matter of PvE. RoF and Sheep are both worthless in these aspects.

In addition, we're given the worst tier of abilities that forces themselves in our face for us to be viable. Are you saying you truly enjoy those boring abilities?

Comparing yourselves to other classes and playing the victim is not how you go about doing that.


I don't think he is 'playing the victim', just stating a point that many Mages agree with that the lvl 90 talents are very aggravating to use. Mages -are- in a good place overall, I don't think anyone is disagreeing on that, but the quality of life for Mages is, in my opinion, pretty bad because of those talents. Every other class either gained a new spell / cd, or at the very least a passive increase (i.e. primal elementalist) with no drawbacks. To sum it up, Mage lvl 90 talents do not solve quality of life problems, they create them.


Exactly. People truly don't know how bad they are until they tried them. When I saw the old beta talents (that is Dragon's Breath, Blast Wave, and Slow) removed and replaced with these, they seemed really fun. That is, until I hit L90 and realized how terrible and awful they are and cause nothing but annoyances and problems.

I would also like to say that I think -overall- the Mage talents are fairly good. I feel like each choice has a purpose and use in all content. Spells like Ring of Frost are primarily useful in pvp, but do have their uses in PvE content. For that, props to Blizz.


I semi disagree here. I'll admit that PoM and Scorch (Tier 1) are a huge choice for me as a Fire Mage as PoM gives me 2+ extra Pyroblasts for Combustions (1+ for non Alter Timed ones), but Scorch is vastly superior on Garalon and Heroic Stone Guards. Tier 2 is usually Ice Barrier, with very seldom I'll use TS. Tier 3 has no relevance in raids so I'll skip that.

Tier 4 has no choice either as I'll never sacrifice Cauterize for the other two as they just aren't that worth it. Sure I can remove a DoT from me every 2.5m, but if I die, I'm dead, while Cauterize lets me live through that. T5 also isn't a choice (to me at least) because NT is just easier, though I'll use LB on cleave fights (Stone Guards and Garalon). Finally, T6 is the only choice in which you choose how you limit yourself on a fight.

There really isn't much choice, but I will admit that some of our talents are very nice (Ice Barrier, even after its nerf will still be strong, and Cauterize is just great).

11/17/2012 11:47 AMPosted by Marcellena
Maybe if they made it so stepping on the Rune gave a buff for 10-15 seconds so you wouldn't have to permanently stand over it to get the effect.


Kinda reminds me of the Elegon mechanic of having to step off/back on the glass. I wouldn't mind an effect like this, but the only difference is everything in Elegon was stationary, plus the glass was like, what, 80 yards in diameter? Our runes are like... 5 yards.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/17/2012 11:59 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
0
I was think that you'd just have to run across it for a second or two and you'd get the buff for a period of time. With two runes up, it wouldn't be hard to do imo.
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
Posted by Anastrasza
Arcane Orb (active): hurls a ball of arcane energy in a front line that explodes on contact, aoe damage ~20 sec cd


That would be as useless as Capacitor totem.

Arcane Should just create a big !@# black Hole that Stuns everyone in it, Then Explodes After 5seconds Knocking Everyone Caught in it Back 15yards, and increasing the damage they take by 10% for 5 seconds (anyone in it has their Move speed reduced by 90%).... The skill itself doen't even have to do Damage.

That would make up for all this Sufferage, and Then I might be able to Cast something and have a Defensive Skill in the process.. It could be on a 1min cd just like Troll $%^ Remorseless Winter

Oh ya it has to be instant Cast... Having a Cast time defeats the purpose.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/17/2012 12:44 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Posted by Anastrasza
Arcane Orb (active): hurls a ball of arcane energy in a front line that explodes on contact, aoe damage ~20 sec cd


That would be as useless as Capacitor totem.

Arcane Should just create a big !@# black Hole that Stuns everyone in it, Then Explodes After 5seconds Knocking Everyone Caught in it Back 15yards, and increasing the damage they take by 10% for 5 seconds (anyone in it has their Move speed reduced by 90%).... The skill itself doen't even have to do Damage.

That would make up for all this Sufferage, and Then I might be able to Cast something and have a Defensive Skill in the process.. It could be on a 1min cd just like Troll $%^ Remorseless Winter

Oh ya it has to be instant Cast... Having a Cast time defeats the purpose.


I don't need that crap, especially if it stuns, since it'll just be nerfed anyways (just like Deep Freeze).

I just don't want mandatory talents that are horribly clunky and crap.

I just recently got my Priest to 90. While I don't particularly enjoy Shadow, my favorite thing EVER is using those three L90 talents, and honestly, those three talents are fun enough to keep me playing my Priest (who is now Holy) because they're just so cool. Not only are they very fun, unique, and useful, but they're also extremely visually appealing (Divine Star being less so only because it tends to clip through the floor or is going through players so it's hard to see).
It's pretty hard to miss a barrage of holy/shadow bolts flying in the air or a giant yellow/purple 30 yard ring. Plus, Halo can hit like a TRUCK if you judge the distance appropriately, and in giant AoE packs, Cascade dishes out damage like there's no tomorrow. DS even does a lot of damage, but not as much as the others (though it has a 15s cooldown, so, whatever!)
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
Still waiting on some changes to this =/

I know blizzard has acknowledged it but at least communicate with us about what you guys are thinking of changing.
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90 Troll Mage
6865
Regardless... L90 talents need to change. Raiding with them is more of an encumbrance then helpful.

im sure 100% of mages who are exposed to using Evocation every 30 seconds just to keep dps at a competitive level will feel the same way.

screw Invocation.
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