[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents - 2

90 Gnome Mage
12045
Pewpew, I hereby award you a big thank you medal for keeping this important topic up.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
0
I am left only to guess at the design philosophy behind the L90 talents, due to the troubling lack of blue posts on the subject, so here's what I think the rationale behind them is:

The developers want mana management to be a "thing" for us. All other casters have some sort of alternative resource to deal with: Eclipse for Balance, Orbs for Shadow, spec dependent for Warlock. Nothing for elemental but maybe they feel like totem management is enough of a secondary mechanic for them (or they are just taking pity on people playing shaman). Since we only have a single resource, this secondary mechanic takes the form of the L90 talents. They want us to have to worry about mana. Again, this is just a guess.

Couple of more things:
This is 100% not about damage, it's about fluidity of rotation. Our damage is great. Really only warlocks should be competing with us at the top of the meters. Our rotation is not "fun". I know the common blue response to complaints about fun is that "fun is subjective", and generally that's true. In this case, however, just based on the outcry about these talents everywhere I look, no one is having fun with these talents. Especially Invocation: It is simply not a fun or engaging mechanic to effectively stand idle for 5-6 seconds out of 45, full stop. I spend something like 15% of my time evocating. I want to play a whole fight, not 85% of one.

Second and finally, the lack of blue response on this issue is a problem. Generally, I fall on the side of forum users being largely being jerks and unreasonable, and many if not most complaints don't deserve a blue response. But in this case, given the level of dissatisfaction with a core mage mechanic, I am honestly confused and dismayed at the total silence on this issue from the developers. As far as I can tell, the only thing from Blizzard regarding the L90s was a tweet from Ghostcrawler after the 5.1 PTR Invocation change was rolled back. So please, please tell us something. Even if it's, hey this is how we want mages to be from now on, suck it up. Or, we're working on something we just don't want to roll it out yet. Just please, say something.
Edited by Wexler on 11/24/2012 9:19 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/24/2012 08:36 AMPosted by Fuzzywashere
Pewpew, I hereby award you a big thank you medal for keeping this important topic up.


Hey, nearly every thread I go into about Mages, I talk about the topic somewhere.

I really don't care if I even have to get banned from the forums for this to be changed. I'm just not having fun with my Mage, and I shouldn't have to quit or reroll.

11/24/2012 09:16 AMPosted by Wexler
The developers want mana management to be a "thing" for us.


Except for Arcane, no they don't.

RoP (Even when you don't stand in it) and IW will always keep your mana above 95%, unless you spam Spellsteal (next patch). Invocation just makes you cast Evo to get the buff.

Second and finally, the lack of blue response on this issue is a problem. Generally, I fall on the side of forum users being largely being jerks and unreasonable, and many if not most complaints don't deserve a blue response. But in this case, given the level of dissatisfaction with a core mage mechanic, I am honestly confused and dismayed at the total silence on this issue from the developers. As far as I can tell, the only thing from Blizzard regarding the L90s was a tweet from Ghostcrawler after the 5.1 PTR Invocation change was rolled back. So please, please tell us something. Even if it's, hey this is how we want mages to be from now on, suck it up. Or, we're working on something we just don't want to roll it out yet. Just please, say something.


It's really disheartening to see other classes get loads of blue posts, even we got one that said "oh we're nerfing Mages, so stop QQing" or some BS (and I really don't care about the nerfs, that was just an example), but the only word we got about this mechanic is "Mages wouldn't evo with that change".

If they said "We're working on changes or replacement talents, so hang tight!" then I'd completely shut my mouth until I saw some changes (unless there aren't any by the time 5.2 hits, in which case I'd cause an uproar about them lying for the hundredth time). If they gave a legitimate reason as to why we have these garbage talents, then I'd quit WoW or reroll because I knew they gave up completely on caring about Mage QoL.

Yes, fun is subjective, but so far every Mage I've asked has either completely despised the talents (the majority of ones I've asked) or simply don't care. Not caring about your super-awesome-last-line-of-talents is really sad, and despising them is even worse.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
Skyreiser: @Ghostcrawler Any chance Mages could get rune of power castable on the move? :D
Ghostcrawler: @Skyreiser don't want it to be a buff you just hit on cooldown. Agree it needs a little work.

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/status/272440268815466496

Personally, I'm hoping it doesn't change much -- I'm still very much enjoying it. But apparently they do feel it needs an adjustment of some kind.
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
Edited by Lhivera on 11/24/2012 8:17 PM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Skyreiser: @Ghostcrawler Any chance Mages could get rune of power castable on the move? :D
Ghostcrawler: @Skyreiser don't want it to be a buff you just hit on cooldown. Agree it needs a little work.

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/status/272440268815466496

Personally, I'm hoping it doesn't change much -- I'm still very much enjoying it. But apparently they do feel it needs an adjustment of some kind.


Greatly appreciate the link, Lhiv, though they're only acknowledging Rune of Power because it's the most underused (and for good reason). I do hope they're looking at the other two as well though :(
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90 Gnome Mage
8700
The reality is most mages hate these talents. Every mage in game I have talked to loathes them. And I am hearing it across the board. This is not simply a people-on-the-forums-don't-represent-the-playerbase thing.

The dislike of these talents is widespread. And for good reason. These talents are the equivalent of telling a fighter, we're gonna send you into the ring with all this power, but you gotta do it with a clamp on your nuts and your hands tied behind your back. Gosh that sounds like fun! Hey little Billy, we're gonna give you this shiny new toy, but you have to go stand over there in that corner and play with it with your eyes shut m'kay.

Only a masochist could enjoy these talents. And I'm thinking of a certain *cough*MVP*cough* when I say that, whom I am beginning to think is perhaps not human but some kind of simulator himself. There are many, many of us mages out there that DON'T get excited by seeing how much damage we can do by standing as still as possible. Even subjective experiences at some point become objectively unenjoyable.

This is not simply a situation of Mages QQ moar, we want to be more powerful than every other class. It's about telling Blizzard we are not satisfied with the product they created for us. Every player of every class should do exactly the same.

Sadly, I think Blizz got themselves in over their heads on this one, and won't have the balls to man up and significantly change them this Xpac. And the proof that they know they screwed up will be next xpac when -- guaranteed -- these talents will be changed completely.
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I rerolled warlock and am much happier now. It's just a much better designed caster at this juncture.

Join the migration over to the superior clothie.
Edited by Deerde on 11/25/2012 2:32 AM PST
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85 Human Mage
15795
I'm sad to say that I've made the decision not to renew when my sub is up in January, with the biggest reason being the state of enjoyment (or lack thereof) from playing my 90 mage. For fairness sake I'll add that it wasn't the only reason, but it was definitely the biggest.

I made a big stink about these talents in beta, and post-launch like many others, and I've genuinely tried to like them, but ultimately I play the game to have fun and I simply don't on my mage.

I would switch mains, but the idea of re-grinding daily rep in order to min/max again is very unappealing to me to play what is now a mature game which has lost its luster significantly. I do enjoy playing my spriest, even though it's underpowered compared to my mage, and would accept that level of performance if that's what was ultimately required in order to make the class fun to play again.

Sadly, Blizzard doesn't seem to want to listen to us on this issue, and I'm going to call a spade a spade: When Blizz seems more intent on fixing a niche issue that's been in existence since BC by trying to implement Water Jet (and failing), and the fact that our MVP has not raided since BC and plays Frost exclusively, and is the only regular poster over in mageland who actually enjoys these talents (also has an in-game NPC named after him), that it's fair to say that there's something to this QoL situation being ignored.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/25/2012 02:35 AMPosted by Noomage
and the fact that our MVP has not raided since BC and plays Frost exclusively, and is the only regular poster over in mageland who actually enjoys these talents (also has an in-game NPC named after him), that it's fair to say that there's something to this QoL situation being ignored.


11/25/2012 01:33 AMPosted by Spyky
Only a masochist could enjoy these talents. And I'm thinking of a certain *cough*MVP*cough* when I say that, whom I am beginning to think is perhaps not human but some kind of simulator himself.


Guys, Lhiv has just as much of a say as us. I, too, am quite shocked he sees differently, but whatever, that's his opinion and is by NO means the majority (just ask as many Mages as you can, ignoring the ones that don't care/don't have an opinion because I'm just referring to ones that have fun vs ones that don't)

The saddest thing also is that because we're such a well represented class (purely for our damage...), Blizzard is ignoring us for that.
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85 Human Mage
15795
Guys, Lhiv has just as much of a say as us. I, too, am quite shocked he sees differently, but whatever, that's his opinion and is by NO means the majority (just ask as many Mages as you can, ignoring the ones that don't care/don't have an opinion because I'm just referring to ones that have fun vs ones that don't)

The saddest thing also is that because we're such a well represented class (purely for our damage...), Blizzard is ignoring us for that.


Oh come on PPB, I don't want to turn this into a "rag on Lhiv" thread because he's done a lot for our class over the years (to the point of being banned at one point for standing up for us) and is fantastic when it comes to crunching numbers. It's not my intention, but it's clearly beyond pure coincidence at this point.

He's even posted stating he does have dev contacts... and the fact that agenda specific to his playstyle gets pushed over things that are widespread problems to the entire raiding community can't be pure coincidence as, if you count beta time it's been nearly 9 months now that the more prominent voices in the mage community, some of whom have left in disgust, and others (like myself) simply stopped posting about it because it was clearly falling on deaf ears and not being pushed through to important people, have been harping over this.

There's no point in speculating on possible solutions when you can't get the developer to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place, and to see things like GC tweeting "7 Pyroblasts in a Deep Freeze" and "Mages might stop Evocating ever" clearly shows that they don't get their own game.

The fact that nothing got accomplished, or even beta tested for that matter, for the next major content patch means the earliest a possible solution can come is ~4-5 months down the road from now which is, frankly, unacceptable and I'm not willing to stick it out for another content patch.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/25/2012 03:38 AMPosted by Noomage
He's even posted stating he does have dev contacts... and the fact that agenda specific to his playstyle gets pushed over things that are widespread problems to the entire raiding community can't be pure coincidence


So you're saying devs are catering to him? That's like saying devs kept Mages OP because GC played a Mage.

11/25/2012 03:38 AMPosted by Noomage
as, if you count beta time it's been nearly 9 months now that the more prominent voices in the mage community, some of whom have left in disgust, and others (like myself) simply stopped posting about it because it was clearly falling on deaf ears and not being pushed through to important people, have been harping over this.


Rogues too, and I can't explain why they chose to ignore us other than the fact that they gave us great PvE DPS, which has nothing to do with playstyle and "fun" though.

11/25/2012 03:38 AMPosted by Noomage
There's no point in speculating on possible solutions when you can't get the developer to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place, and to see things like GC tweeting "7 Pyroblasts in a Deep Freeze" and "Mages might stop Evocating ever" clearly shows that they don't get their own game.


At the very least, he's put a few tweets in about them, but I will admit the main problem here is they aren't acknowledging the fact that Invocation is a huge problem. He did say that RoP needs a bit of work though:
Skyreiser: @Ghostcrawler Any chance Mages could get rune of power castable on the move? :D
Ghostcrawler: @Skyreiser don't want it to be a buff you just hit on cooldown. Agree it needs a little work.


11/25/2012 03:38 AMPosted by Noomage
The fact that nothing got accomplished, or even beta tested for that matter, for the next major content patch means the earliest a possible solution can come is ~4-5 months down the road from now which is, frankly, unacceptable and I'm not willing to stick it out for another content patch.


The only reason I am is because of how much I enjoy my raid team (seriously, there isn't a guy on there that I would replace based purely on their personalities as we have nearly every type of "character") in addition to these very fun mechanics. MSV and HoF has a ton of fun fights, my favorites being Blade Lord, Garalon (WTF PEW LIKES GARALON?! Yes, I enjoy kiting), Stone Guards, Amber-Shaper (I ENJOY VEHICLES, OKAY?!), and Spirit Kings. I've yet to do ToES because my guild has just downed Empress on Wednesday (our most recent raid night), but I have done them on LFR and they seem quite interesting.

- Also, I haven't disliked a single fight, though my least favorites are Feng and Will, however, both of those (as well as all the others) are more fun than _ANY_ fight in Firelands or Dragon Soul (With the exception of Ragnaros and Alysrazor [though I wouldn't like Alysrazor if I wasn't a Mage]).

With that said, I've been leveling other characters, and I definitely plan to gear up and finish off my Shaman, as Elemental is super fun, plus you get to play a class that people support due to their "underpowered" play, rather than jump-on-the-bandwagon-to-hate Mages who are hated for their "overpowered" play, and it does get very disheartening when people constantly disregard my opinions purely because of my class (THAT'S CLASSISM BTW!)
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85 Human Mage
15795
11/25/2012 04:01 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
So you're saying devs are catering to him? That's like saying devs kept Mages OP because GC played a Mage.


I'm saying that when someone has a mandate to bring important community posts to the attention of specific people and nothing happens over a prolonged period that there's a problem somewhere in that process.

It's very, very different.

Edit: I in no way ever stated that this was a poor expansion either. Overall, it's better than Cata. Content-wise, I agree with you, it's far superior to the last 2 tiers (I still think T11 was better done than this, though), but you can have the best content in the world and it doesn't matter if you don't enjoy playing your toon that you've invested into over 3 expansions (I mained a hunter in BC). However, since the beginning of this expansion I've stayed out of a sense of loyalty to the team I raid with, but even that has it's limits and the end of my 1-year contract is that end in this case.
Edited by Noomage on 11/25/2012 4:17 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Edit: I in no way ever stated that this was a poor expansion either. Overall, it's better than Cata. Content-wise, I agree with you, it's far superior to the last 2 tiers (I still think T11 was better done than this, though), but you can have the best content in the world and it doesn't matter if you don't enjoy playing your toon that you've invested into over 3 expansions (I mained a hunter in BC). However, since the beginning of this expansion I've stayed out of a sense of loyalty to the team I raid with, but even that has it's limits and the end of my 1-year contract is that end in this case.


Oh I know. I'm just saying "at least the content is pretty good".

I'm saying that when someone has a mandate to bring important community posts to the attention of specific people and nothing happens over a prolonged period that there's a problem somewhere in that process.


So you think Lhiv isn't bothering to push this thread to the devs? I could see that, and if this is true, Lhiv, I don't wish to see your face 'round these parts no more, though I really doubt you'd do that, right?

... RIGHT?!
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/25/2012 4:21 AM PST
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85 Human Mage
15795
So you think Lhiv isn't bothering to push this thread to the devs? I could see that, and if this is true, Lhiv, I don't wish to see your face 'round these parts no more, though I really doubt you'd do that, right?

... RIGHT?!


That is really the only point I've been trying to get at regarding that specific situation. Lhiv could simply post stating that he's made every effort to make sure that the community's concerns have been brought to the right people given how sensitive the issue has been for so long. I wouldn't question that at all if it was simply stated for all publicly to see.

As that has not happened at all in this process, I'm inclined to believe what I believe based on the only public facts that I as a regular joe have access to. Instead, all I've seen is the mathematical defense of the viability of the talents, which no one who performs at a decent level while playing a mage can question without looking like a fool.
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MVP - World of Warcraft
90 Human Mage
10015
11/25/2012 04:10 AMPosted by Noomage
So you're saying devs are catering to him? That's like saying devs kept Mages OP because GC played a Mage.


I'm saying that when someone has a mandate to bring important community posts to the attention of specific people


Just as an FYI, that's not in the MVP job description. It is something I do when I have time and notice a good thread on the Mage forum, because the devs don't read the class forums for the most part. They do read the role forums, however.

See here for further info on the MVP program:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4038704715
________________________________________________
Find answers to questions about Mage mechanics in
Lhivera’s Compendium • http://lhiveras-library.com/compendium
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90 Pandaren Shaman
6730
If they buff mages mobile dps then they need to nerf their overall damage to the ground. They already do the most dps in the game by a rather large margin (except over affliction locks)
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Noomage, they have surely gotten the message by now, Lhiv or no. No quick fix is forthcoming. I'm pretty sure this isn't going to get solved until the next expansion. Voting with your feet is the best way to convince them that a do over is necessary here. The whole tier needs to be thrown out.

And they should seriously start thinking about alternatives to mana management. Give mages a new resource system. Blow up evocation. Basically, make mana irrelevant, as should be (and largely is) the case for any dps caster at this point. Arcane and its mastery are shackling us to an outdated concept and the entire class and all specs are suffering from it. Mages are looking creaky and archaic compared to the polish our competitors, warlocks got.

The only thing I'm still jonesing about on my warlock is blink and portals.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/25/2012 06:25 AMPosted by Thunder
If they buff mages mobile dps then they need to nerf their overall damage to the ground. They already do the most dps in the game by a rather large margin (except over affliction locks)


Read the OP before posting please, kthxbai.

11/25/2012 06:48 AMPosted by Deerde
Basically, make mana irrelevant, as should be (and largely is) the case for any dps caster at this point.


Arcane is the only caster that has mana management. Why are people suddenly saying all Mages are? If you don't Evocate as Invocation, you're already wasting damage...
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Because the mage class is chained to an arcane corpse. Since arcane has to manage mana, that wrecks the rest of the class. And what's most hilarious about this is that arcane is doing poorly anyways.

If Blizzard gave mages an entirely new resource to manage (or better yet, 3 new resources, one per spec as with warlocks), then arcane could fail on its own without messing things up for everybody else.

The tier 90 talents are cheap and bad way to get around this. A horrible shortcut that keeps mana in the game for arcane and burdens the other two specs with idiotic maintainance buffs. And tries to do this by recycling spells never meant to do this job, like evocation.

If you gave each spec its own resource to manage, the entire tier could be used for some other purpose.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Because the mage class is chained to an arcane corpse. Since arcane has to manage mana, that wrecks the rest of the class. And what's most hilarious about this is that arcane is doing poorly anyways.

If Blizzard gave mages an entirely new resource to manage (or better yet, 3 new resources, one per spec as with warlocks), then arcane could fail on its own without messing things up for everybody else.

The tier 90 talents are cheap and bad way to get around this. A horrible shortcut that keeps mana in the game for arcane and burdens the other two specs with idiotic maintainance buffs. And tries to do this by recycling spells never meant to do this job, like evocation.

If you gave each spec its own resource to manage, the entire tier could be used for some other purpose.


Yeah... Or, not build a tier solely around one specc in mind.

Even hybrids don't do that. Paladin Tier 3 is a prime example as each one gives you a healing buff, but in a creative way. Either an empowered WoG, a new shield (or rather new in a different way...) spell, or giving your Judgements a stacking buff to FoL.

Also, you worded your previous posts a little weird. You said mana management (basically for every specc), when you really meant "because Arcane has to manage mana, Frost and Fire suffer with the L90 talents", which is something I totally agree with, but giving us more resources seems a bit of a waste of time on the dev's team. They can totally revamp the talents w/o having mana purely in mind.

Furthermore, it's a bit ironic how L90 talents purely revolve around Arcane, yet Arcane's the broken specc this patch. Kinda funny, huh?
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