[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents - 2

90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Invocation changes have been reverted, now identical to live.


The old change is now officially wiped from existence. *Sighs*

At the very least, they should make it "while out of combat, for 40s after, AND after completing an evocation----". This way, we don't require 10s countdowns from our tanks for Evo/Pyro... :\
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
Yeah, as expected. They fake placed that pyroblast cooldown with the intent of removing it and then scrapping a change with invocation to make us think they are looking into it and then remove the pyroblast cooldown and then bam, balanced. Good old blizzard style.
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90 Undead Mage
7790
Honestly, I'm not even that annoyed by the invo chance not being implemented, because it was just a small chance that wouldn't really improve the talent in general. Sure, it would be easier to manage pre-pulls, but in the end, we still have bad talents. These small changes that they are making are not making the talents more fun, just a little less troublesome. Until they actually make the talents at least semi-enjoyable to use, I will not be satisfied with any small changes they make.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/03/2012 12:45 AMPosted by Malhavoc
Until they actually make the talents at least semi-enjoyable to use, I will not be satisfied with any small changes they make.


Same here, though I recently did the switch from Frost to Fire as of Wednesday, and I gotta say, Invo isn't nearly as much of an issue as it was with Frost (it still is, mind you, but not like it used to be. Everything seems to line up perfectly with my Combustion burns).

Still boring as hell, still clunky as hell, still annoying as hell.
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
I just wonder why Rune of Power is such a small circle..... That's my only question... Warriors can throw out a banner, or Shaman a totem and they arent restricted to such a small area...

Also to the OP I'm just gonna say... I doubt you have ever played other casters before if your exclamating there are other casters that are as mobile or more mobile than you. Mage and Hunters are the most Mobile casters..

Both Hunters and Mage have the benefit of casting while moving and keeping their Target continuously slowed.. I dunno if affliction can pull that off, but I know Demo and Destro can't.. Not to mention all the free procs u get to throw out something instant and the relatively lower cast time. Warlock Still Remains to be the 2nd or maybe 3rd least mobile caster even with the silly talent + The passive for the talent made it one of the least desirable talents in game to me... being able to move but only cast spells that take 4-5seconds to cast ain't fun and have a 10/20% movement speed reduction means ur target will most likely get away before you get any of that off/ for 1 min we have 6 seconds to actually move which is no better than ice floes. If anything it just brings lock a lil closer to your level.

Also arcane mage, I'm sure u never played before or only played for 30mins and realized this, are forced to Arcane missile, Arcane plays the most similar to almost every other caster in game.

As for limitations Warlocks are force to stand 30yards are somewhere near there to their telepad and also 70yards of their gateway (Or have no escape options).
Shaman Are Forced to stay in their Totems (If they want buffs/debuffs).
Spriest and Arcane Mage are forced to spam something in a limited amount of time or else the buffs drop off.

What mobility were you talking about.. I clicked the orig. link where you were going on about how hunters getting their aspects removed but I guess you don't realise how pertinent their casted skills are to their resource. Guess you never played a hunter.. but their Damage is very reliant on how many times they shoot the filler, as their Longevity is very dependent on how much they can kite.
Then I read the laundry list of examples you give in which most the skills don't effect the class as whole.

I agree that the mage 90 Talents are bad but you don't have to be pretentious and pretend all other casters can move around uninhibited by anything with no cost.

Mage Tier 90 are truly lame skills that, like Deepfreeze serve, as another anchor for the Devs to base their damage around.

I honestly Think Mage was the hardest class for them to revamp for MOP. Therefore it's going to take them much more time to fix the flip flop fiasco they have with mage right now.

P.s. Me not being able to enjoy arcane mage isn't just pvp wise but PVE wise as well... I spend so much time casting and channeling and eat huge chunks of DPS loss due to having to move ( some times with power on) and such. I'mma try to reforge everything to haste but i doubt this would help much. I don't think I can cast arcane blast 3 times before someone reaches me in pvp >.> Not to mention having RoP doesn't help at all... I'm questioning even having it cuz the small circle I have to stand on is ridiculous in both PVP and PVE in that death gripping panda fight I can't stand on it more than 2.5 seconds.
Edited by Nagomalda on 11/3/2012 3:15 PM PDT
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90 Human Mage
IQ
8250
I wish they would just make it appear under the casters feet, and skip the targeting reticule. Theres really no need for two, only time casting two would be a gain of anything would be pre pull, otherwise youre just wasting gcds.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/03/2012 04:23 AMPosted by Nagomalda
I just wonder why Rune of Power is such a small circle..... That's my only question... Warriors can throw out a banner with a pretty decent range but Mage is basically forced to stand in place.


Well, we can't really compare a Melee class to a Ranged class, esp when Banners are temporary.

11/03/2012 07:00 AMPosted by Batar
I wish they would just make it appear under the casters feet, and skip the targeting reticule. Theres really no need for two, only time casting two would be a gain of anything would be pre pull, otherwise youre just wasting gcds.


Still won't fix its crappy problems though.
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90 Draenei Mage
17750
11/02/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Pewpewblast
Invocation changes have been reverted, now identical to live.


The old change is now officially wiped from existence. *Sighs*

At the very least, they should make it "while out of combat, for 40s after, AND after completing an evocation----". This way, we don't require 10s countdowns from our tanks for Evo/Pyro... :\


Them ditching that change is pretty disappointing.
Edited by Ryegeleye on 11/3/2012 10:07 AM PDT
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11/03/2012 07:00 AMPosted by Batar
I wish they would just make it appear under the casters feet, and skip the targeting reticule. Theres really no need for two, only time casting two would be a gain of anything would be pre pull, otherwise youre just wasting gcds.

And with only a 1 minute duration, you aren't really rewarded for planning ahead. You're still going to have to take the time to re-cast them frequently regardless of how well you know the fight.

Also, I think the RoP CD change is an indication that they won't be making any real changes to the lvl 90 talents. Abandon ship.
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
11/03/2012 10:16 AMPosted by Sattyn
Also, I think the RoP CD change is an indication that they won't be making any real changes to the lvl 90 talents. Abandon ship.


I don't want to sound dramatic, but that makes me really sad, specially because it's true.

:(
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90 Human Paladin
7655
It was said during beta that flashy and or new talents weren't necessary. I was an advocate for the opposite.
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90 Undead Mage
7790
11/03/2012 01:23 AMPosted by Pewpewblast
Still boring as hell, still clunky as hell, still annoying as hell.


Haha, I was actually going to give frost a shot and see if it would improve the talents, but with this info I'll probably just stick with fire.
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I don't think going frost or fire makes the talents any better or worse.

RoP Could:
Last until cancelled by casting a 3rd/4th rune.
- Cancel with distance.
- Cancel if not standing in them for more than X seconds.
Have a bigger circle.
Blink takes you to nearest rune (minor glyph?).
Have Rune be a stacking buff, the longer you're in it the bigger the buff, have it decay over X seconds.
Move to where you're standing after casting X fireballs/arcane blasts/frostbolts
Casting RoP while in a rune could be an instant cast.

Invo could:
Require you to stay stationary but allow you to invocate while casting other spells.
Allow you to move but cancel with casting other spells.
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90 Undead Warlock
3910
ROP needs a larger radius point blank.. It doesn't have to be huge, but the same size as a warlock telepad is stupid. 5yrd radius would be a huge improvement. Secondly it needs to either be allowed to be casted while moving or not have a cast time at all.

Being able to cast 2 "preemptively" isn't helpful at all.. cause 9 times out of 10 they both fade close to the same time. That means I have to wait to cast it anyways.. in which case being able to put able to 2 down isn't helping me at all. There's no need to cast 2 runes at all.

I never used Innvocation before, I never liked Evocating... but Innvo seems like the go to talent if you aren't arcane... well even with arcane.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/03/2012 10:27 AMPosted by Pallynomial
It was said during beta that flashy and or new talents weren't necessary. I was an advocate for the opposite.


Priests too.

And Shamans.

... Also Warriors.

... *Sighs*

11/03/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Malhavoc
Still boring as hell, still clunky as hell, still annoying as hell.


Haha, I was actually going to give frost a shot and see if it would improve the talents, but with this info I'll probably just stick with fire.


NO, IT, DOESN'T. With Fire, you just time everything around Combustion. With Frost, you constantly make sure you have Invo.

Trust me, I've done raiding as both speccs with all the talents. Invo is much easier with Fire than Frost (minus the extra second of cast time, due to haste), RoP is equal, and IW has always been equal.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17150
You can't add better mobility for mages without breaking PvP (more than it already is..)
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
You can fix the damn talents to work better like that change they scrapped. That was step in the right direction.
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90 Goblin Mage
9540
11/03/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Faeria
You can't add better mobility for mages without breaking PvP (more than it already is..)


Our PVP is about to get gutted when they finally nerf frost bomb. Our only saving grace right now is our absurd burst, and GC confirmed it's getting a nerf. Our mobile damage is pathetic, and our sustained damage is some of the worst in the game.

And frankly, people who whine about mages should be advocating getting rid of these talents. 25-30% extra SP on a cooldown is exactly what makes our burst so crazy. Dump that down to 12% set increase across the board and give us interesting/fun utility talents to compensate.
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90 Undead Mage
11870
11/03/2012 08:02 PMPosted by Terrorific
Our only saving grace right now is our absurd burst


In order to get your "absurd burst" and the 30% buff you seem to think is easy, you would need to take IW, then get everything lined up just about right, and then convince someone to do ~20k damage to you in the next 8 seconds. This gives you a 15 second window in which you get to do this absurd burst. I don't believe IW plays that way - its more of a "You hurt me, so I get the opportunity to hurt you back for a bit" scenario. If you're talking about Invocation, I have a hard enough time getting that off against dumb raid boss AI - you really think anyone in an arena is going to let you get off a 5.5 sec cast? Are you going to waste that 5.5 seconds of coordinated CC to buff yourself and pray the next window to do that comes up in less than 40 seconds?

Also, you must have missed it, we're only theoretically supposed to get 11% or so from any of the talents. So I guess your wish has been granted? :)

Annnnnnnddd... just for funsies - this is pretty much a pve thread. Has been for both iterations of it. I haven't seen anyone use anything but IW for PvP.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
17150
11/03/2012 08:02 PMPosted by Terrorific
Our PVP is about to get gutted when they finally nerf frost bomb.


Damage is still there, it doesn't matter if it takes 1 second longer, what makes it OP is that you know its coming, and if the healer has dispel on CD or is ccd you can expect to take 90k damage at least (non cds up), and i've seen it hit as high as 180k in arenas with Full cds, that just a "single" spell, chained with a deepfreeze and instant icelance is over 200k damage in a second.

The problem relies on big ammount of damage coming in so little time that it gets unheleable, and the ammount of CC that mages provides is absurd right now, if you buff their mobility then we will have mages running rampart in arenas (not that they aren't doing that right now).

Also mage is in a good spot in PvE (Fire spec is), You can get mobility when you have PvP issues covered.

11/03/2012 08:47 PMPosted by Howmanylichs
this is pretty much a pve thread. Has been for both iterations of it. I haven't seen anyone use anything but IW for PvP.


Yes but you can't balance PvE, without Hurting PvP same goes for PvP balance.

PvE was supossed to be balanced with the "New talent trees" leaving the numbers in passive abilities and balancing PvP thru talents, they were not suposse to affect numbers as I remember but utilities.
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