[Mage] Mobility and L90 Talents - 2

100 Orc Mage
10985
Our only saving grace right now is our absurd burst


In order to get your "absurd burst" and the 30% buff you seem to think is easy, you would need to take IW, then get everything lined up just about right, and then convince someone to do ~20k damage to you in the next 8 seconds. This gives you a 15 second window in which you get to do this absurd burst. I don't believe IW plays that way - its more of a "You hurt me, so I get the opportunity to hurt you back for a bit" scenario. If you're talking about Invocation, I have a hard enough time getting that off against dumb raid boss AI - you really think anyone in an arena is going to let you get off a 5.5 sec cast? Are you going to waste that 5.5 seconds of coordinated CC to buff yourself and pray the next window to do that comes up in less than 40 seconds?

Also, you must have missed it, we're only theoretically supposed to get 11% or so from any of the talents. So I guess your wish has been granted? :)

Annnnnnnddd... just for funsies - this is pretty much a pve thread. Has been for both iterations of it. I haven't seen anyone use anything but IW for PvP.


It's more than possible to get the timing right, but yes, it's difficult to line up. I'm defending our pvp, nor am I condemning our balance. We're a gimmick. These talents contribute to said gimmick. If they were serious about making us less gimmicky, then even out our damage by getting rid of these awful talents. Done.

Our PVP is about to get gutted when they finally nerf frost bomb.


Damage is still there, it doesn't matter if it takes 1 second longer, what makes it OP is that you know its coming, and if the healer has dispel on CD or is ccd you can expect to take 90k damage at least (non cds up), and i've seen it hit as high as 180k in arenas with Full cds, that just a "single" spell, chained with a deepfreeze and instant icelance is over 200k damage in a second.

The problem relies on big ammount of damage coming in so little time that it gets unheleable, and the ammount of CC that mages provides is absurd right now, if you buff their mobility then we will have mages running rampart in arenas (not that they aren't doing that right now).

Also mage is in a good spot in PvE (Fire spec is), You can get mobility when you have PvP issues covered.

this is pretty much a pve thread. Has been for both iterations of it. I haven't seen anyone use anything but IW for PvP.


Yes but you can't balance PvE, without Hurting PvP same goes for PvP balance.

PvE was supossed to be balanced with the "New talent trees" leaving the numbers in passive abilities and balancing PvP thru talents, they were not suposse to affect numbers as I remember but utilities.


Oh please. Look at any arena ladder right now. Mages decently are represented, but nowhere near as much as warriors, paladins, hunters, or shamans. So spare me the "mages are running rampart" crap. Our control is getting nerfed bigtime and our burst is getting nerfed further than just a delay on frostbomb (see: GC's analysis). So we need compensation, because if we don't have our burst, we have nothing. We're hardcast dependent, our kiting has been nerfed with imp. coc gone. There are more stuns and interrupts than ever before. And considering burst is 100% necessary this xpac with hour powerful healing is, I'd say we're going to need a hell of a lot more tweaks to come come 5.1

And with that, I bolded the part where I actually agree. The mage talent trees have THREE throughput tiers. It's absurd. They completely bungled our talents.

I'd happily take 11% spell damage increase + pve utility tier any day or the week instead of the gimmicky crap we have now.
Edited by Terrorific on 11/3/2012 10:00 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18615
11/03/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Terrorific
Oh please. Look at any arena ladder right now. Mages decently are represented, but nowhere near as much as warriors, paladins, hunters, or shamans.


Becuase Hunters and warrior are easier to play, and paladins/shaman are represented by the healer spec.

Have you seen the ladders? Top Comps are God comps (shatterplay shatreeplay), all of them are above of KFC and those Hunters/warr comp.

11/03/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Terrorific
Our control is getting nerfed bigtime and our burst is getting nerfed further than just a delay on frostbomb (see: GC's analysis).


1 sec less of Deep freeze and 15 secs on Ring of frost aint gonna help survive the Frostbomb burst (well maybe the deep freeze nerf may), and how do you know Frost mage buff is gonna get hit by the nerfbat, they always regret nerfing mages, doubt they will actually nerf them this time.

11/03/2012 09:44 PMPosted by Terrorific
We're hardcast dependent, our kiting has been nerfed with imp. coc gone. There are more stuns and interrupts than ever before.


Interrupt got nerfed by CD increase in 5.0, where is kiting nerfed? I see frostmage kiting the same as before, also, mages can blink out of stuns, I've still have to see a mage getting spell locked in arenas.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18615
And with that, I bolded the part where I actually agree. The mage talent trees have THREE throughput tiers. It's absurd. They completely bungled our talents.

I'd happily take 11% spell damage increase + pve utility tier any day or the week instead of the gimmicky crap we have now.


Yes you can have all of that, but first they need to separate PvP from PvE, which they were supossed to do with PvP Power (obviously it didn't work, as long as they dont have 2 separate damage tables one for players and one for NPC's I don't see PvP/PvE Balance coming anytime soon).
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
WTB Changes
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90 Pandaren Priest
9520
I bought changes. By rerolling!
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
Great deal right there!
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90 Draenei Mage
16945
RoP duration should be long enough that you don't need to recast it during combat unless you move, I think. Like 15/20 minutes. There's been all this talk about it being "clunky" to use the recticle-targeted aoe from the water elemental in your rotation, why would this not appliy to RoP as well? At least make it something that isn't part of the patchwerk situation.
Edited by Kolzi on 11/4/2012 9:49 PM PST
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90 Goblin Rogue
14150
Could be worse.

Much worse.
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100 Human Mage
15060
Could be worse.

Much worse.

Please don't tell this to Blizzard.
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11/04/2012 09:47 PMPosted by Kolzi
There's been all this talk about it being "clunky" to use the recticle-targeted aoe from the water elemental in your rotation, why would this not appliy to RoP as well? At least make it something that isn't part of the patchwerk situation.

lol
Excellent point.
But then, this is the team that said that "moving should be terrible for ranged DPS" on the Hunter forum, then gave Hunters 100% no-penalty mobility.

I'm starting to think that they have a lottery every week, and each week a random winner gets to make a change completely unrelated to previous changes or design intent.
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
It's ok guys. GC said we'd stop evocating cause of Mana Gems. He knows the class more than every single WoW player combined.

But I do have faith. At least they tried which means they are looking into it.
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90 Human Mage
9060
i think they should make evocate benefit from spirit again.
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60 Undead Rogue
8075
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1220899-Fire-Mage-5-0-5-DPS-Flowchart-for-MoP

NEED MORE EVOCATE
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90 Gnome Mage
8975
http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr20/Locnessed/Flowchart1-1.png

The devs need to see this.

LOL.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
Could be worse.

Much worse.

Please don't tell this to Blizzard.


It really can't be worse than it already is.

http://i465.photobucket.com/albums/rr20/Locnessed/Flowchart1-1.png

The devs need to see this.

LOL.


At least it's not as bad as old kitty. I still remember "JOHN <snip> MADDEN!"

Oh, did I say not as bad? I meant 100x worse.
Edited by Pewpewblast on 11/5/2012 9:21 AM PST
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
It's ok guys. GC said we'd stop evocating cause of Mana Gems. He knows the class more than every single WoW player combined.

But I do have faith. At least they tried which means they are looking into it.


I don't have faith anymore because they haven't spoken a word about this.

If we got ONE blue post that said "we understand Mages dislike and are having frustrations with their talents. We are coming up with ideas and changes for 5.1", then bam. This whole thread would be halted until the change appears.

I was ready to stop with the Invocation change, but NOPE. Reverted!
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They already acknowledged our frustration with the new talents by implementing the changes on the PTR. The fact that the invocation change was reverted only means they are still discussing how they want it to change.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/05/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Magicmewse
They already acknowledged our frustration with the new talents by implementing the changes on the PTR. The fact that the invocation change was reverted only means they are still discussing how they want it to change.


Implementing changes? They didn't even TEST the Mana 100% change! Ghostcrawler pulled it before it ever got TESTED.

His reasoning? He simply assumed that we wouldn't Evocate. Without. Any. Testing.

I honestly have little to no faith left.
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Going on a limb, perhaps what he meant was that he didn't want the talent to redesign Evocate. They want it to be used to regenerate manas, not cast solely to keep up a buff.
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90 Human Mage
CFT
18870
11/05/2012 05:21 PMPosted by Magicmewse
Going on a limb, perhaps what he meant was that he didn't want the talent to redesign Evocate. They want it to be used to regenerate manas, not cast solely to keep up a buff.


Um... So why does Invocation exist then?
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